A Dothraki Arakh

[Ocean of Notions]

[quote name='Ran' post='1724604' date='Mar 18 2009, 19.18']Obviously, George is the person who can answer this question definitively (let us know the answer when you get it!), but at least as far as the reasoning goes, I do think scimitars are likelier just because that's what we see from the RL horse nomads GRRM largely borrowed from when creating the Dothraki. :)[/quote]

I second that. I still stand by that link (Mongolian/Tungistic scimitars) I posted in the last page.

[Venardhi]

A sickle-sword or scimitar with an extended lower section like a Khopesh would provide the shape as described with both the function and reach

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1724417' date='Mar 18 2009, 16.06']The fact is, the main benefit from that style of blade is closer in slashing. From horseback that style of blade is going to result in reduced reach and power on any down strikes to standing opponents.[/quote]
And yet all sorts of nomadic cavalry [i]did[/i] use that sort of weapon.
[quote]I haven't gotten a response yet but I'd bet that GRRM was specifically thinking of a khopesh when he wroke Arakh. People are always confusing scythes and sickels, and the "kh" consonant combination isn't altogether that common. Would be quite a coincidence if he didn't.[/quote]
So you think George [i]didn't[/i] mean scythe when he [i]wrote[/i] scythe, but he [i]did[/i] mean khopesh when he [i]didn't[/i] write khopesh? That...sounds like you're just hearing what you want to hear.

[Ocean of Notions]

I don't think it's anything like a khopesh - it just doesn't make sense. Scythes and sickles aren't the same thing.

[Valyrian-Steel]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1725076' date='Mar 19 2009, 02.25']And yet all sorts of nomadic cavalry [i]did[/i] use that sort of weapon.

So you think George [i]didn't[/i] mean scythe when he [i]wrote[/i] scythe, but he [i]did[/i] mean khopesh when he [i]didn't[/i] write khopesh? That...sounds like you're just hearing what you want to hear.[/quote]

I mean people often confuse sickle and scythe. Both are primitive farm implements used for the harvesting of straw or other grass like plants such as various grains. The sickle is single handed and short, and the scythe long and two handed. Searching for "grim reaper sickle" on Google yields 32,000 results, and is incorrect. He carries a scythe, searching for "grim reaper scythe" yields 74,000 results. Ergo, I could conclude that 30% of people out there think a scythe is a sickle, or did so when posting something online. I think there is a greater chance of this because both Arakh and Khopesh use the very rare "kh" consonant combination.

Now, for those of you who insist the curve of a scimitar is better, a sickle-sword still has one. There are a variety of sword forms that one might call a khopesh, such as the classic egyptian one that looks like it was molded off of an axe, to later ones.

[url="http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/axekho.jpg"]http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/axekho.jpg[/url]


I'm thinking a khopesh like the 4th or 5th in that picture, not the second or third like the classical egyptian styling. In the end, it has the exact same curve as a scimitar, but with a straight handle (thus giving it the same slashing ability but with more reach).

Then, of course, if it really was a scimitar, why didn't he describe it as a "scimitar-like" blade? That he went for a more complex word makes me think he was envisioning a more complex weapon than the simple curved scimitar.

[CiaranAnnrach]

On another note, the arakhs are made of steel, so you don't have to worry about any inconsistencies in materials. Right after they are introduced them, when the two dothraki are fighting with their arakhs, it specifically says "Steel bit into flesh..."

Anyhow. By the same token, he would have used the word "kopesh" if he wanted something like that.

Something else to consider - how easy would it be to draw a kopesh from a sheath? Or are there even sheaths for a kopesh? We know that the arakhs have sheaths - the Dothraki responsible for cutting off Jaime's hand held his arakh in a sheath.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1725352' date='Mar 19 2009, 08.22']Ergo, I could conclude that 30% of people out there think a scythe is a sickle, or did so when posting something online.[/quote]
It's not a question of the vocabulary deficiencies of 30% of people, it's a supposed vocabulary deficency of GRRM, which there's no actual reason to presume. He's not some random teenager on the internet, he's an acclaimed professional writer.

[quote]I think there is a greater chance of this because both Arakh and Khopesh use the very rare "kh" consonant combination.[/quote]
Very rare? In what language? Dothraki? Not really. Mongolian? Not really. Alannic? Hunnic? Or just English?

[quote]Then, of course, if it really was a scimitar, why didn't he describe it as a "scimitar-like" blade? That he went for a more complex word makes me think he was envisioning a more complex weapon than the simple curved scimitar.[/quote]
"Scythe-like" is more complex than "scimitar-like"? English is used to represent the Common Tongue of Westeros, which is one of Dany's native languages. Scythe is an English word. Neither khopesh nor scimitar are, and the languages that they come from are not used to represent other cultures in the IaF world. Other languages are represented by words he invented.

[Ocean of Notions]

I somehow think Martin would know the difference between scythe and sickle.

Dany was seeing an arakh, possibly, for the first time. It wouldn't make sense to pull out a word like "scimitar" since those things don't seem to exist in the world of ASoIaF.

[Yagathai]

[quote name='Valyrian-Steel' post='1725352' date='Mar 19 2009, 09.22'][url="http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/axekho.jpg"]http://www.valyriansteel.com/images/axekho.jpg[/url]

I'm thinking a khopesh like the 4th or 5th in that picture, not the second or third like the classical egyptian styling. In the end, it has the exact same curve as a scimitar, but with a straight handle (thus giving it the same slashing ability but with more reach).[/quote]

I like #4.

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Ocean of Notions' post='1725615' date='Mar 19 2009, 11.56']I somehow think Martin would know the difference between scythe and sickle.

Dany was seeing an arakh, possibly, for the first time. It wouldn't make sense to pull out a word like "scimitar" since those things don't seem to exist in the world of ASoIaF.[/quote]

It's not just from Daenery's POV that we see the Arakh's described as scythe-swords. From when Jaime has his hand cut off...

[quote]The fat Dothraki put aside his knife to unsheathe a huge curved arakh, the wickedly sharp scythe-sword the horselords loved.[/quote]

So, it's not just from Daenerys eyes that these are viewed as scythe-swords, but also Jaime's. And as a Kingsguard and considering his martial prowess, it would not be unreasonable for Jaime to have had prior knowledge to them and other exotic weapons before being captured by the Brave Companions. (Exotic to Jaime being those not normally found in Westeros.)

I think the Samshir is the most likely candidate, personally.

[Yagathai]

Well, a scythe is a long straight sweep and then a curved blade at the top, set perpendicular to the shaft and forward towards the direction of striking so if you really think GRRM was picturing a scythe (and I'm still going khopesh, personally), then I'm seeing much less a shamsir and much more a chinese-style hook sword: [url="http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/c/TS-SLVHOOK_540.jpg"]http://www.trueswords.com/images/prod/c/TS-SLVHOOK_540.jpg[/url]

But it's not that. It's a khopesh. ;) GRRM has made small mistakes like this before -- like saying that the toga-wearing Quartheen ate candied mice and swallow's tongues. The toga-wearing Romans famously ate swallow's tongues and honey-roasted [i]dormice[/i], an entirely different kind of rodent, and so while GRRM obviously based Quartheen cooking on Roman cooking, he did it a little bit "wrong". Similarly the khopesh is a sickle-sword and I think that's what GRRM meant, but he wrote scythe-sword, which is equally "wrong".

I use quotation marks because, of course, it's a fantasy series. I mean, it's not like Arwen's sword from the LOTR movies is a practical cavalry weapon, but come on. It looks cool.

[CiaranAnnrach]

I don't see how you got a Chinese-style hook sword at all. Also, the logic you used to assert it's a kopesh is equally flawed. Actually, there's no logic behind your kopesh assertion.

If you take a scythe's blade, and remove the long wooden shaft, what you have is a long metal blade that's gently curved with the edge on the inside of the curve. With me? Now instead of attaching a staff to it, extend the tang of the blade some to create a handle. What you now have is something that looks very, very close to a scimitar, except the edge is on the inside of the curve instead of the outside.

A kopesh, however, looks nothing like a scythe. While you do have that curve at the end, the straight segment of the blade destroys any similarity it might have to a scythe. If you were to take a sickle, however, and extend it's tang such that you have exposed metal above the actual handle, you come up with something very similar to a kopesh.

Which, then we have to wonder if GRRM knows the differences between a sickle and a scythe. I think he does.

The Arakh, more often than it is described as a "scythe-sword", is described as a great curving weapon. To me this says that the entire blade is curved, much like a scimitar. A kopesh, to me, the "curving" adjective isn't appropriate to describe the weapon as a whole, because simply, not all of it is curving.

Also, I still can't fathom how you would sheath a kopesh.

[Venardhi]

The main deficiency in a khopesh is that it angles forward on the whole rather than arcing back, this makes it more like an axe (chopping) in use and harder to wield as a slashing/slicing weapon. It doesn't have to specifically be one or the other, it could be a hybrid of several of our earthly weapons.

[Yagathai]

Well, if it's that important to you...

[CiaranAnnrach]

[quote name='Yagathai' post='1725860' date='Mar 19 2009, 14.17']But it's not that. It's a khopesh. ;) GRRM has made small mistakes like this before -- like saying that the toga-wearing Quartheen ate candied mice and swallow's tongues. The toga-wearing Romans famously ate swallow's tongues and honey-roasted [i]dormice[/i], an entirely different kind of rodent, and so while GRRM obviously based Quartheen cooking on Roman cooking, he did it a little bit "wrong". Similarly the khopesh is a sickle-sword and I think that's what GRRM meant, but he wrote scythe-sword, which is equally "wrong".

I use quotation marks because, of course, it's a fantasy series. I mean, it's not like Arwen's sword from the LOTR movies is a practical cavalry weapon, but come on. It looks cool.[/quote]

Did GRRM admit that was a mistake, or did he purposefully alter it some to fit his own idea of who the Quartheen are? Do you have proof of his mistakes? Or are you just assuming that, because he drew inspiration from the Romans, but things aren't [i]exactly the same[/i]?

Also, you are making a very, very bad assertion by saying Martin wouldn't design his world to be realistic. He's a medieval warfare buff, and considering a large amount of the medieval ages were spent in the Crusades, where scimitars and such were very commonly used by the Arabs. You are basically assuming he would be ignorant about the weapons used in that era, and then on top of that, that he wouldn't do any research on them when designing his world. And then you're also assuming that he would model the Dothraki weapons after an Egyptian sword, instead of a Mongol style sword. (Note: Mongols favored the Chinese Dao, which is a long sword that is gently curved, with a single edge, with the handle taking an opposite curve creating a lopsided "S" - this opposite curve in the handle was to improve the accuracy of slashes and thrusts. It's similar to the scimitar in general shape and function.)

A whole lot of very bad assumptions if you ask me.

And for the record, Arwen's sword [i]is[/i] a practical cavalry weapon. It has a gentle curve with the edge on the outside of the curve, such that you can slash an opponent. This slashing style of sword is preferred on horseback, as with a straight edged sword, there is a potential for the weapon to become lodged and become wrenched from your hands as you rode past.

[Ocean of Notions]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1725854' date='Mar 19 2009, 15.10']It's not just from Daenery's POV that we see the Arakh's described as scythe-swords. From when Jaime has his hand cut off...

So, it's not just from Daenerys eyes that these are viewed as scythe-swords, but also Jaime's. And as a Kingsguard and considering his martial prowess, it would not be unreasonable for Jaime to have had prior knowledge to them and other exotic weapons before being captured by the Brave Companions. (Exotic to Jaime being those not normally found in Westeros.)

I think the Samshir is the most likely candidate, personally.[/quote]

Oops, my bad. However, I still stand by that Westerosis probably wouldn't know what a "scimitar" was. I think they'd see a scimitar and describe as resembling an arakh. :)

I'm against the khopesh and I'm doubly against the hook sword. Those just don't make sense. I will settle for scimitar, dao, samshir or other curved sabres that fit in with those three.

And not just the Crusades. I'll add Moorish presence in the Iberian as another influence.

[Guest Other-in-law]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1725936' date='Mar 19 2009, 15.11']Did GRRM admit that was a mistake, or did he purposefully alter it some to fit his own idea of who the Quartheen are? Do you have proof of his mistakes? Or are you just assuming that, because he drew inspiration from the Romans, but things aren't [i]exactly the same[/i]?[/quote]
It was so goofy, I'm pretty sure he just joking.


However, since bald assertion is fashionable here, it's not a khopesh. It's not, it's not, it's not! :P

[Yagathai]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1725936' date='Mar 19 2009, 16.11']And for the record, Arwen's sword [i]is[/i] a practical cavalry weapon. It has a gentle curve with the edge on the outside of the curve, such that you can slash an opponent. This slashing style of sword is preferred on horseback, as with a straight edged sword, there is a potential for the weapon to become lodged and become wrenched from your hands as you rode past.[/quote]

Wuh? OK, it's curved, fine, but:

It's double-edged. Not only is that useless on a curved blade, it also weakens the back edge or "spine" of the blade, what the Japanese call the [i]mune[/i], making it more prone to breaking when you're, say, slashing at something at high speed as you ride past it. In fact, the back edge is thinnest right where blade meets grip, which is exactly where it's most likely to break.

The grip curves the wrong way, like a pistol. That's... backwards, especially since the blade curves the other way.

Speaking of the grip, there's no pommel (I don't count that gently curved flared metal thing) or branch or finger-loop or guard. On a cavalry weapon, that means that the blade flies out of your hand at the first pass, assuming your hand doesn't get cut off. And no, those little... spike things on the blade don't count either.

[Yagathai]

[quote name='Other-in-law' post='1725969' date='Mar 19 2009, 16.46']However, since bald assertion is fashionable here, it's not a khopesh. It's not, it's not, it's not! :P[/quote]

You're wrong! You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong!

["Blackfyre"]

[quote name='CiaranAnnrach' post='1724389' date='Mar 18 2009, 15.45']Though I'm surprised that GRRM would let something be produced under his name that didn't have his approval. I guess with the sheer volume of cards that have been produced for this game though, that would just be too tedious.[/quote]

Yes. In speaking to both GRRM and FFG they produce so many cards they can't possibly send GRRM all the art to approve. They are supposed to follow the books and the descriptions given, but often times there aren't any so they let the artist come up with whatever they want.