400 replies to this topic

[HP Loveshaft]

Jon AS, on Mar 21 2009, 10.36, said:

Oh yeah: was I the only one who laughed at how smug and self-satisfied Headsix and -baltar seemed in the last scene upon discovering that Hera apparently died at a very young age? I mean, after all the trouble people went to for her she doesn't even have the decency to live to a ripe old age? Ungrateful brat.

She probably ran away from Athena/Helo right after their last scene, and was then mauled by a giraffe.

[Brude]

HP Loveshaft, on Mar 21 2009, 14.10, said:

She probably ran away from Athena/Helo right after their last scene, and was then mauled by a giraffe.

Well, no.  She's Mitochondrial Eve apparently, which means she had a bunch of kids with some of the locals before she died who then went on to out-compete the rest of humanity over the subsequent eons.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Sebastian, on Mar 21 2009, 12.24, said:

Janeway from the future destroying Borg cubes left and right and Sheridan ending a million years of war by screaming at ancient races to get the frak out of our galaxy suddenly don't seem so bad anymore.

Well to be fair, Sheridan and Delenn both had Lorien's support.

[Ran]

I'd like to see someone compile a list of all "God" interventions, especially with Head Baltar and Head Six. It'd be interesting to examine just what role they had in the narrative in more detail, in relation to the finale.

[EHK for Darwin]

Its a day later and this is still fucking worthless.

[aynatal2000]

You either loved it or hated it ...and I loved it.The first hour was BSG at its best - military kick ass,humor and paying homage to the old show.Seeing the cylons fighting for the Galactica- omigod that was banging! Six and Baltar finally coming to respect one another - the last stumbling block for them... and then they see their head counterparts- both of themIt is easy to see then why they were running through the opera house  clutching that vision of Hera as if she were their own; they were now worthy and up to the responsibility.In the  Opera House/CIC.you can all complain to high heaven but when that fell into place and they opened the door and the Final Five were bathed in light I defy you to say you took your eyes from the screen !
As to Starbuck- you all wanted her to be something special; we all had theories.She was special and when she keyed in the jump coordinates,she fulfilled her destiny.
But Sam was the man! Isn't it funny that the more machine he became the more humane he was... and his flashback made so much more sense.Watch the episode again - all three hours and listen to what he says in the interview.Nuked em right by the black hole that I think was really the eye of jupiter.Don't roast me think on it for a minute - do you really believe that Cavil didn't know where earth was if this has happened before.The ones who didn't know were the Five because he wiped their memories.So many great points.Say what you will but when Cavil put that gun in his mouth I knew they had won.He did not want to remain in his fleshy shell - he despised it.He knew he would live and die in it. surrounded by humanity- tis better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.To take such a step when so many of his people were around- he knew where earth was and he didn't want to go.
I enjoyed this finale.It wasn't everything you hoped for but it did deliver the goods.

[aghrivaine]

Just finished watching it. Aside from the one conceit that, while necessary to achieve a certain story end, utterly strained credulity - I thought it was absolutely perfect. And even that one flaw was in service to a very, very worthwhile end.

I can't recall a series finale that was as finely done. B5 comes close, but the irregularity of the final two seasons meant the crescendo wasn't quite as stunning as this one. This was some serious Pelennor Fields kinda stuff, man! I loved it. I'm entirely satisfied. I was afraid they'd written themselves into a hole for a while there, but the final season brought it all together in a perfectly satisfying way, and the final episode was the superb-cherry on the cake-of-awesome.

I feel like I need a drink or a cigarette!

I thought the flashbacks served very well to show how each character's end was written in his beginning, and that each of them got exactly what they truly wanted. I agree that the "let's give up technology and like, live in teepees" was a bitter pill to swallow...but it's what lead the story back around to being on earth. Battlestar Galactica was, from its beginning, based on Mormon creation myth, and in that context it being god-bothered and its religiosity makes sense, even if it's a little clunky to the rest of us. I found all that forgiveable... every damn loose end felt tied up to me, even if some of them were done with some heavy-handed plot-grooming. Forgiveable liberties for a satisfying end.

Edit: I am puzzled, however, at who "God" is supposed to be. When head-Baltar and head-Six say, "Oh right, he doesn't like being called that, does he?" To whom are they referring? I suspect RDM.

Edited by aghrivaine, 21 March 2009 - 05:00 PM.

[Regina]

I didn't address this in my post upthread, but I'd like to discuss what I'll simply call the religious issue.  Despite the many faults of the finale, I don't think the fact that it all came down to "god" and the "angels" is one of them.  Is it a satisfactory ending, imo?  No, of course not.  But should we have expected it?  Yeah, we should have.

I was just a kid when the original BSG aired, so I'm going by Wiki to refresh my memory here.  But even then, we had powerful "angels" and a character who was basically Lucifer.  The major difference was that the "angels" ressurected dead Apollo, not Starbuck.  But the precedence is certainly there.

http://en.wikipedia....star_Galactica)

And in the new series, Caprica Six has been attributing everything to "god" for as long as I can remember.  In short, we can't say we weren't warned.

*shrug*

[aghrivaine]

Regina, on Mar 21 2009, 15.04, said:

I was just a kid when the original BSG aired, so I'm going by Wiki to refresh my memory here.  But even then, we had powerful "angels" and a character who was basically Lucifer.  The major difference was that the "angels" ressurected dead Apollo, not Starbuck.  But the precedence is certainly there.

That's because it's based on Mormon myth - Glen A. Larson was a devout Mormon. I didn't much like the religiosity of the new BSG, and felt it was on its weakest ground when it was dealing with faith and faffery; compared to the vicious knife-fight that it was when it came down to politics and the battle for survival, that stuff just seemed ...weak sauce. But that was an important theme (like it or not) for a lot of the characters, and for the ending to be relevant to those characters, it couldn't leave the religious shoe-strings untied.

I think real-life Mormon's beliefs are pretty baffling and generally run counter to my own values, so it's no wonder at all that when run through a science-fiction filter they'd seem especially ...weird. Unsatisfactory. But inconsistent it is not! And in the end, I did find it satisfactory - Starbuck's identity and fate as enigmas are better than anything I had considered as possible resolutions.

[Werthead]

Something I found mildly unsatisfying is that minor characters like Seelix, Kelly and Connor just vanished without a trace. I'm assuming that Seelix and Connor didn't volunteer for the mission and just stayed on the prison ship (a bit lame for Seelix, who they were developing into a bigger character in late Season 3/early Season 4), but I assumed Kelly (who's been in the show since the mini-series and was manning a CIC station for the assault on New Caprica) would be around for the last hurrah.

[Bronn Stone]

Regina, on Mar 21 2009, 15.04, said:

http://en.wikipedia....star_Galactica)

I feared and hoped at the same time the finale would include a character named "Count Iblis".

[TrackerNeil]

First reaction: I am delighted that a sister got to be admiral, if only for a day or so.

OK, this is the way I feel about the series in general. I feel like B5 was in most ways more consistent and coherent, but that BSG had better stories and characters. I think RDM didn't develop a very clear trajectory from the outset, and if you listen to the podcasts you'll see that the writers would often introduce story directions whose endings they could not anticipate. I think that's what gave rise to the we'll-use-God-to-explain-it-all stuff. I'm not making excuses for that - it's kinda weak - but all in all I enjoyed the ride.

[Werthead]

[musing]

Of course, the end of BSG also means we could get a Homeworld TV series. That could be good.

[/musing]

[EHK for Darwin]

aghrivaine, on Mar 21 2009, 16.42, said:

I can't recall a series finale that was as finely done.

I was gonna try to respond to this without coming off like a condescending prick, but its impossible. You must have exceedingly low standards. Or you've never watched another TV show in your life. I can grudgingly accept that some people don't think this was the mind-blowing clusterfuck, waste of 5 years and 3 hours disaster that I did. But best series finale ever? Are you shitting me? 6 Feet under. Sopranos. MASH. B5. The Wire. Fuck, even Star Trek tNG was better. DS9 was much better. Rome was better. West Wing was better. Hell, there are dozens if not hundreds of mediocre shows with bad finales that are better. Yeah, not everyone hated this. I get that. But who in their right mind places it atop the best finales ever? That's magic mushroom shit.

The action was poorly choreographed and rarely interesting. The dramatic high notes they tried for missed much more often than they hit. It dragged on far too long with RotK style false endings. The flashbacks were gratuitous and needless. Some of them serving as contrived retcons. (Ander's is a robotic, physics loving perfectionist? Where did this characterization come into play in any of the previous seasons? What's that? Pulled it out of your ass at the last moment? Just like most of the other shit in this series?)

None of the series long questions were answered. Every mystery created, every corner written into was copped out. No special significance to the Opera house, just a lame ass vision of several characters looking for a little girl. No special significance to Hera for the humans when you come right down to it. She's needless in the end. Kara played Deus Ex. The rescue mission was still idiotic and Lee 'lets all go caveman' idea not only monumentally stupid, but completely ridiculous that all 40,000 would go along with it.

The 'beware robots and technology' warning was B-movie trash and completely without merit.


Give me 100 chimps, 100 typewriters and an FX budget and I guarantee you'd get a more logical, coherent, and entertaining finale than this.

[Ran]

I kind of feel sorry for those railing away at it, having their expectations crushed so. It's sad that, obviously, it didn't push any buttons for them. Go figure -- mileage does vary. I wouldn't call this the greatest finale ever by any stretch of the imagination, but it was a thematically rich, consistent, and appropriately character-oriented ending to the show.

A shame.

One bit I'll remark on:

Quote

No special significance to Hera for the humans when you come right down to it.

If Hera hadn't been taken, the suicide mission would never have happened, and Kara would not have been put in the position that at last led to the jump to Earth. Humanity would have died out there in space, wandering around trying to find some suitable homeworld and never finding it. If God nudges but does not entirely decide, the moment Adama and a part of the fleet decide to take that suicide mission is one of the key moments of the series.

There's something fascinating about the repeated "deus ex machina" phrase, since it literally means "god out of the machine". Consider that in the context of metaphysics of the show, and perhaps the message of "beware technology" is not quite so clear cut as some want to make it.

Again, I'm sorry it didn't click for some people. I think a large part of that is due to failures in earlier parts of the show to properly organize and decide where they were going. But in the broader context of everything they've done, this is, I think, exactly the ending they strove for.

Edited by Ran, 21 March 2009 - 07:23 PM.

[EHK for Darwin]

Ran, on Mar 21 2009, 19.21, said:

I kind of feel sorry for those railing away at it, having their expectations crushed so. It's sad that, obviously, it didn't push any buttons for them. Go figure -- mileage does vary. I wouldn't call this the greatest finale ever by any stretch of the imagination, but it was a thematically rich, consistent, and appropriately character-oriented ending to the show.

A shame.

I've been watching this show for 5 seasons. I suffered through the 1.5+ filler episodes. I endured the love triangle. I cringed through incoherence, I accepted retcons. I *weep* watched Black Market. And I watched this show tick off its last few episodes without answering much, dealing more with character (sometimes interesting, sometimes not) rather than plot, and tossing on more filler as the last few hours came and went. I did not have huge expectations for this finale. In fact I had quite limited expectations. Though I expected some answers, good drama and action, and a reasonably satisfying end to the series.

This was well below that exceedingly average expectations I had going into it. Really it was quite the disaster IMO. I was shouting at the screen how much it fucking sucked with an hour to go. I couldn't believe it. Another needless flashback follow by another nature scene. Rolling my eyes, constantly bringing the clock up on screen, willing the episode and the series to fucking end. You can't make a finale this bad on accident. You have to invest a TON of time and effort into it. It was excruciating from the earth point onward.

Quote

If Hera hadn't been taken, the suicide mission would never have happened, and Kara would not have been put in the position that at last led to the jump to Earth. Humanity would have died out there in space, wandering around trying to find some suitable homeworld and never finding it. If God nudges but does not entirely decide, the moment Adama and a part of the fleet decide to take that suicide mission is one of the key moments of the series.

Which is still overly convenient, contrived nonsense. Its a 'Because the writers said so' solution. Kara could've typed that shit in 10 episodes ago, but she didn't...because the writers didn't want her to yet. But there is nothing about Hera that makes her intrinsically useful or necessary to humanity. They don't need her to continue the species. Hell, they don't need any of the skinjobs at all. Yet they still led a suicidal mission with the best that humanity had left, risking everything for one unnecessary little girl. Its irrational, nonsensical crap.

I don't think wanting something to make sense is raising my expectations too high.

[Aemon Stark]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 21 2009, 21.09, said:

The 'beware robots and technology' warning was B-movie trash and completely without merit.

Except that would seem to be one of the major themes of the show. Who created the Cylons again? It's Skynet in space.

I think the reaction to this finale is inevitably going to be very divided. (that's clear enough here)

[EHK for Darwin]

Aemon Stark, on Mar 21 2009, 19.39, said:

Except that would seem to be one of the major themes of the show. Who created the Cylons again? It's Skynet in space.

I think the reaction to this finale is inevitably going to be very divided. (that's clear enough here)

But it still comes down to hating on progress for the sake of hating on progress and pretending that its some profound, meaningful message. There are more than enough inevitable and/or highly likely 'ills of progress' to be warned about before we give this half-baked crap a second thought. Yeah its a theme of the show, fair enough. But they don't need to club us over the head with it at the very end with the 'OMG, the JAPANESE ARE MAKING ROBOTS!' crap. I saw more powerful 'beware of tech' messages on the excruciatingly cringe-worthy Maximum Overdrive. Sentient, self-aware machines destroying mankind aren't high on anyones list of worries nor should it be. It was silly, B-movie cheese.

[Relic]

Ran, on Mar 21 2009, 20.21, said:

Again, I'm sorry it didn't click for some people. I think a large part of that is due to failures in earlier parts of the show to properly organize and decide where they were going. But in the broader context of everything they've done, this is, I think, exactly the ending they strove for.

Ran, when you are reading a book or watching a movie/tv show, you trust the author, right? Trust that he's going to go from point A to B, and that A will determine B, B will induce C, and so on. You trust that what you are reading now is true and meaningful as it lays the foundation of what you will read later .

I know I do.

When a story or narrative lays down its foundation and then completely ignores key plot points for the sake of wrapping up a climax... doesn't it cheapen the over all experience?


I wasn't too high on this show going into S4.5 (loved it for the first 22 episodes or so) but the first 4 episodes of this last half season were fucking GOOD. Especially the 2 part mutiny arc. that was classic. And in retrosect, imo, it's where the writers shot their last load.

But yeah, all just my lonely opinion.

Edited by Relic, 21 March 2009 - 08:21 PM.

[aghrivaine]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 21 2009, 17.09, said:

I was gonna try to respond to this without coming off like a condescending prick, but its impossible.

EHK is finally right about something! He does, in fact, sound like a condescending prick!

What I liked about this was that it brought everything together, all the disparate threads from 5 years of shows - into one story; the recovery of Hera and taking her to Earth, where she became the progenitor of the next "turn on the wheel". Every character played a role in making that happen, and each of them had their individual stories brought together in that moment, with that action.

It's not that the "Hey, let's all live in teepees!" doesn't strain credulity - it does! But it's a place where we see the clear hand of the writer, bringing it all back in together. It's what leads us to OUR world, OUR earth, which makes the story not just symbolically relevant to us, something it's always been. Yeah, yeah, you think they'd have learned the lesson about the wisdom of hunkering down on a planet, giving up their fleet, and leaving themselves open to a still-active cylon menace. I'm saying, that aside - every character has his or her story very definitely come to a conclusion.

I liked it, and found it much more satifsying than the end of the Sopranos, of Rome, of B5 (barely). The Wire...well, I dunno. The Wire is kind of in a class by itself. But then, when I said it was the most satifsying finale, I was really thinking of science fiction in my head, even though it didn't make it into print.