400 replies to this topic

[aghrivaine]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 21 2009, 18.05, said:

Yeah its a theme of the show, fair enough. But they don't need to club us over the head with it at the very end with the 'OMG, the JAPANESE ARE MAKING ROBOTS!' crap. I saw more powerful 'beware of tech' messages on the excruciatingly cringe-worthy Maximum Overdrive. Sentient, self-aware machines destroying mankind aren't high on anyones list of worries nor should it be. It was silly, B-movie cheese.

I felt that sequence wasn't meant to warn against the robots, but rather to suggest - this has happened before and it will happen again. Tying it back into our world, and not passing judgement. My take wasn't that it was luddite, rather, that it had all come around again, and here's where it starts. It was, to me, almost tongue-in-cheek, and I liked it.

And I approve of technology.

[Derfel Cadarn]

The true mastermind and guiding hand behind the events of BSG.

http://www.nvnews.ne...p;pictureid=310

[Sebastian]

Looking through a few different forums and blogs, I'm simply baffled how well this ending is received on average. I'm seriously doubting the sanity of people who like it. This is not supposed to be an insult, I really don't understand. It seems to me like an obvious, almost mathematical truth that this ending is an abomination. I just cannot contemplate that anyone would enjoy it, let alone think it the best series finale ever.

Unexpectedly, I really like the TWOP recaplet for this episode. These recaps are written by someone who seems to be in love with Galactica. He gave an A+ to almost every episode, no matter how boring. In the recaps, he usually interprets some hidden depths that the writers probably never thought about. So I was expecting him to love the finale, instead I'm pleasantly surprised to find out that he didn't. At all.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Yeah, really. If George R.R. Martin were to end A Song of Ice and Fire with "and some mysterious, unrevealed God was responsible for it all, but none of the plot trails actually lead anywhere," I think that everyone should within reason be pissed.

[aghrivaine]

Sebastian, on Mar 21 2009, 18.36, said:

Looking through a few different forums and blogs, I'm simply baffled how well this ending is received on average. I'm seriously doubting the sanity of people who like it. This is not supposed to be an insult, I really don't understand. It seems to me like an obvious, almost mathematical truth that this ending is an abomination. I just cannot contemplate that anyone would enjoy it, let alone think it the best series finale ever.

Unexpectedly, I really like the TWOP recaplet for this episode. These recaps are written by someone who seems to be in love with Galactica. He gave an A+ to almost every episode, no matter how boring. In the recaps, he usually interprets some hidden depths that the writers probably never thought about. So I was expecting him to love the finale, instead I'm pleasantly surprised to find out that he didn't. At all.

I love it when people say, "Everyone who doesn't share my opinion is insane." It adds to the discourse quite a lot, don't you think?

I remember, now, why I stopped coming 'round here...

[Werthead]

One thing I will heavily dispute is the notion that TNG had a better finale than this. Character-wise, it worked. Plot-wise All Good Things was a totally fucking retarded mess that didn't even make the slightest bit of sense at the time and even less in retrospect.

DS9, B5 and Blake's 7's finales were all better than BSG's, I'll grant that. But BSG's is a hell of a lot better than Voyager's or Enterprise's (not the best praise ever, I'll admit). Or The X-Files' for that matter, another show that crumbled under the weight of its own, ultimately unresolvable mythology.

Edited by Werthead, 21 March 2009 - 08:40 PM.

[aghrivaine]

Matrim Fox Cauthon, on Mar 21 2009, 18.37, said:

Yeah, really. If George R.R. Martin were to end A Song of Ice and Fire with "and some mysterious, unrevealed God was responsible for it all, but none of the plot trails actually lead anywhere," I think that everyone should within reason be pissed.

Totally different though. ASOIAF isn't about religion, and while people claiming divine authority do appear in the series, it's not really a major theme. On the other hand, "religious powers" are becoming more and more evident in ASOIAF, so batten down your hatches - it may yet happen that mysterious, unrevealed gods become far more important there, too. Even so, BSG has a much tighter narrative focus than ASOIAF, and spent a lot of that narrative time on religious themes. About half, really - so the fact that the last episode was half apocalyptic battle, and half religious stuff is entirely consistent with the show to date.

[Sebastian]

aghrivaine, on Mar 22 2009, 02.38, said:

I love it when people say, "Everyone who doesn't share my opinion is insane." It adds to the discourse quite a lot, don't you think?

I remember, now, why I stopped coming 'round here...

You shouldn't let me stop you from coming here. I'm a long time lurker, I write about 10 posts a year. ;)

And I know it doesn't add anything to the discourse. I'm just trying to vent some of my frustration.

[EHK for Darwin]

aghrivaine, on Mar 21 2009, 20.28, said:

EHK is finally right about something! He does, in fact, sound like a condescending prick!

What I liked about this was that it brought everything together, all the disparate threads from 5 years of shows - into one story; the recovery of Hera and taking her to Earth, where she became the progenitor of the next "turn on the wheel". Every character played a role in making that happen, and each of them had their individual stories brought together in that moment, with that action.

But it came together because they chucked it all into a pot and arbitrarily declared 'Its together'. None of it actually meshed in a rational or satisfying fashion. None of it was
reasonable conclusion of several seasons of logical foundational buildup. (or if there was any of those things, it was very little) It was not what even the most generous viewer would describe as coherent or consistent. Time and time again it was 'its this way because we say its this way'. This was not a puzzle meticulously pieced together to give us a grand picture at the end. This was a bunch of random pieces from dozens of different puzzles, randomly cut to fit when necessary, redrawn when retconning called for it, fitting together via fiat to draw a picture that is neither consistent nor coherent.

Quote

It's not that the "Hey, let's all live in teepees!" doesn't strain credulity - it does! But it's a place where we see the clear hand of the writer, bringing it all back in together. It's what leads us to OUR world, OUR earth, which makes the story not just symbolically relevant to us, something it's always been.

It doesn't just strain credulity, it destroys it entirely. Doubly so when 40,000 people spontaneously go along with such nonsense. If the writers want to 'bring it all back together', shouldn't they be required to do it in a manner that makes sense? Instead of simply declaring 'Its together!', which is what they did, shouldn't we demand they exercise a bit of imagination come up with an explanation that doesn't require 40,000 people unanimously chucking rational thought? I'd rather they don't try to fit it in at all rather than do it this way.

Relic describes it quite well a few posts ago. The A's, B's, C's, and D's don't fit together. One does not logically lead to the other. Inconsistencies are ignored or papered over with some variation of 'God did it'. The foundation laid before bears little relevance to the conclusions drawn later.

[EHK for Darwin]

Sebastian, on Mar 21 2009, 20.36, said:

Looking through a few different forums and blogs, I'm simply baffled how well this ending is received on average. I'm seriously doubting the sanity of people who like it. This is not supposed to be an insult, I really don't understand. It seems to me like an obvious, almost mathematical truth that this ending is an abomination. I just cannot contemplate that anyone would enjoy it, let alone think it the best series finale ever.

I approve this message.  :thumbsup:

[aghrivaine]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 21 2009, 18.49, said:

Relic describes it quite well a few posts ago. The A's, B's, C's, and D's don't fit together. One does not logically lead to the other. Inconsistencies are ignored or papered over with some variation of 'God did it'. The foundation laid before bears little relevance to the conclusions drawn later.

I didn't see it that way. What can I say? I saw as actually fitting together - the Opera House finally makes sense, Starbuck's role finally makes sense. Yes, there is the "hand of god" in all of it, but that's exactly the point, all along. It turns out there really is a God (though he doesn't like for us to refer to him as such, apparently, perhaps it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster, after all?) and God has an active hand in the affairs of his creations, be they human or cylon - anywhere in the universe, they are still his children, and he's still tending to them.

The original series was intended to be a re-telling of Bible stories in space. I think in this series, what we've got is the events that would lead to a mythology like the Bible, but fundamentally they are religious and divinely inspired and guided. That's the invisible hand working behind everything .... and if you don't buy that, it just seems random and contrived. But for me, the light bulb finally clicked, and made sense of all the (irritating) god-bothered maundering that Baltar et al had been doing. The finale redeemed the worst parts of the series, and that was no mean feat, since some of it was pretty bad.

But watching Saul Tigh drunkenly bellow at a strip club, and earlier engage in two-gun action, made it ALL totally worth it, to me. Tigh forever!

[Bronn Stone]

Upon reflection, I don't think we can understate the necessity of saving Hera.

38,000+ humans and Cylons landed on Earth and spread out all over the planet.  But only those who descended from one little half-Cylon girl in what would become Tanzania survived.

The refugees from the Twelve Colonies SHOULD have been able to populate the planet by themselves.  But they didn't.  And the writers know that we are smart enough to notice that and didn't have to spoon feed the answer to us.

We're told over and over again that Hera is special.  We see her blood send cancer into remission.  We also know that her descendants survived and evolved into us.  Without her, there is no us.

It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.
Hera's special blood was the 'missing link'.  
The Colonists could not reproduce in the new environment.
No new human-Cylon children arose in the new environment.

They didn't hit us over the head with the explanation, but it's the only one that fits, IMO.

[Aemon Stark]

Werthead, on Mar 21 2009, 22.39, said:

One thing I will heavily dispute is the notion that TNG had a better finale than this. Character-wise, it worked. Plot-wise All Good Things was a totally fucking retarded mess that didn't even make the slightest bit of sense at the time and even less in retrospect.

DS9, B5 and Blake's 7's finales were all better than BSG's, I'll grant that. But BSG's is a hell of a lot better than Voyager's or Enterprise's (not the best praise ever, I'll admit). Or The X-Files' for that matter, another show that crumbled under the weight of its own, ultimately unresolvable mythology.

On the subject of All Good Things, I'm perfectly happy with the explanation that Q was manipulating all this. :)

[EHK for Darwin]

aghrivaine, on Mar 21 2009, 20.38, said:

I love it when people say, "Everyone who doesn't share my opinion is insane." It adds to the discourse quite a lot, don't you think?

I remember, now, why I stopped coming 'round here...

With all due respect, suck it up. We've already had insinuations in this thread that people who didn't like the last few episodes don't appreciate subtlety and aren't sophisticated enough appreciate fine character development. The further implication that we're all just a bunch of explosion loving simpletons who just don't get it. Its happened countless times over the course of this series in these threads and countless other book, show, and film discussions. Denigrating the taste of others is kind of par for the course of these threads, even when its not blunt or even intended. And its not just on this board, shit like this is prevalent all over the internet. I didn't bitch about it when I caught it a few pages ago, I just let it go.

[Sebastian]

What bothers me is not that God is the explanation for the HeadPeople and, I don't know, everything. It was obvious since the first season that there were some supernatural elements and that some hidden power was influencing people. (By the way, I'm sure that the writers originally intended the Cylons to be a lot more involved in this mythology. See Leoben in Flesh and Blood or Athena's "We know more about your religion than you do" on Kobol.)

The problem is that this God obviously doesn't have a plan, either. HeadSix's actions turn out to be completely arbitrary. There is no great picture, no great mistery that is finally revealed, it all turns out to be random shit the writers made up as they went along.

For me, this is very disappointing. Especially after the excellent retconning in "No Exit", I was expecting that we would get some satisfying answers in the last episode. Instead they do not even try to give answers and pretend that everything was part of some convoluted, divine plan.

[aghrivaine]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 21 2009, 19.05, said:

With all due respect, suck it up. We've already had insinuations in this thread that people who didn't like the last few episodes don't appreciate subtlety and aren't sophisticated enough appreciate fine character development. The further implication that we're all just a bunch of explosion loving simpletons who just don't get it. Its happened countless times over the course of this series in these threads and countless other book, show, and film discussions. Denigrating the taste of others is kind of par for the course of these threads, even when its not blunt or even intended. And its not just on this board, shit like this is prevalent all over the internet. I didn't bitch about it when I caught it a few pages ago, I just let it go.

Mreh. I found my personal aggravation quotient went way down when I was constantly in the middle of poo-flinging contests over anything and everything. Maybe it's prevalent on this board and on the internet, but that doesn't make it right, fun, or interesting. I'd love to hear some examples of good retconning vs. bad retconning, for instance - rather than just railing and venting. I absolutely GET why some people couldn't swallow the whole "Let's go live in teepees!" ending. But to me, that fly in the ointment didn't ruin the whole thing, it was minor.

[Werthead]

Bronn Stone, on Mar 22 2009, 01.56, said:

Upon reflection, I don't think we can understate the necessity of saving Hera.

38,000+ humans and Cylons landed on Earth and spread out all over the planet.  But only those who descended from one little half-Cylon girl in what would become Tanzania survived.

The refugees from the Twelve Colonies SHOULD have been able to populate the planet by themselves.  But they didn't.  And the writers know that we are smart enough to notice that and didn't have to spoon feed the answer to us.

We're told over and over again that Hera is special.  We see her blood send cancer into remission.  We also know that her descendants survived and evolved into us.  Without her, there is no us.

It doesn't take a genius to connect the dots.
Hera's special blood was the 'missing link'.  
The Colonists could not reproduce in the new environment.
No new human-Cylon children arose in the new environment.

This is something that does track: the Colonials' blood as seen on charts early in the series seemed to lack Type O, which is Hera's blood type and what (somehow) allowed her blood to send Roslin's cancer into temporary remission. Is it possible that it's this blood type (presumably also lacking from the native Earthlings) that permits the survival of Hera's descendants when the other Colonials die off? I'm guessing so.

[aghrivaine]

Werthead, on Mar 21 2009, 19.21, said:

This is something that does track: the Colonials' blood as seen on charts early in the series seemed to lack Type O, which is Hera's blood type and what (somehow) allowed her blood to send Roslin's cancer into temporary remission. Is it possible that it's this blood type (presumably also lacking from the native Earthlings) that permits the survival of Hera's descendants when the other Colonials die off? I'm guessing so.

Well, bear in mind that just because she's "Mitochondrial Eve" doesn't mean that none of the other colonist's children lived or thrived - just that they didn't have a profound effect on the genetic soup of later generations. It's not clear that she's the ONLY one who managed to breed. It is clear that HER descendants thrived and spread out all over the world. I do like the theory that she's what results in homo sapiens sapiens - but that also is only hinted at.

[Tears of Lys]

Well, my decision to stop watching after Season 2 was a good one, all in all, as it saved me from being so invested in the plot that I'm ready to throw bricks at the TV.  As it was, I mildly enjoyed the ending.  I actually stopped watching the series when they started to make religion the basis of so much of the action.  You may as well base the plot turns on a prophecy.  :dunno:

[EHK for Darwin]

Bronn Stone, on Mar 21 2009, 20.56, said:

Upon reflection, I don't think we can understate the necessity of saving Hera.

38,000+ humans and Cylons landed on Earth and spread out all over the planet.  But only those who descended from one little half-Cylon girl in what would become Tanzania survived.

Again, this is because the writers said so. There's no established, rational reason why that had to be the case. 40,000 people is plenty to start a new species. Doubly so if they're not dumb enough to spread alone to the far corners of the earth. Maybe her half-Cylonness ensured she could breed with the cavemen or protected her and only her from earth born diseases. But if that's the case, than the happy ending is much less happy and I don't think they'd go so far to imply that let alone actually do it.

Quote

The refugees from the Twelve Colonies SHOULD have been able to populate the planet by themselves.  But they didn't.  And the writers know that we are smart enough to notice that and didn't have to spoon feed the answer to us.

If that is the 'real' ending, which is a possibility, than stopping on earth is about the worst thing the rest of humanity could've done. Their 'salvation' is a cruel joke and they all die off. A tad morbid. So the species doesn't survive, just a half breed and her cavemen half-half breeds. But if that's the case, Hera's still irrelevant and so are the rest of the Colonials. Their entire 5 year struggle all for naught. Because they die off with no meaningful contributions to the gene pool and if Hera wasn't there, most likely another 'Eve' from the cavemen would've done just as well.

Unless we're positing that something in Hera's genetics was necessary for the survivability and/or development of the aborigines, or for whatever random reason only her 'strain' survived and all others died. But it still comes down to a 'Because the writers said so' solution. She's necessary to the survival/progress of cavemen/colonials because they said she is. It fits a little bit given her superblood and unique heritage, but I'd still be curious to the answer of why she was necessary? Why couldn't the colonials breed and/or why did they die out? Were the cavemen destined to remain cavemen without her and why? Did she represent a shift to anatomically modern humanity that never would've occurred without her?

Yeah I can fill in the potential pieces on my own and they're not nonsensical ones like much of the rest of the show is, but it still strikes me as a tad lame and deterministic. Not to mention depressing and fruitless for the entire cast and series, since the inevitable conclusion is that they all die out on their 'newfound paradise'. It raises a real 'What was the point?' question. Homo-sapien didn't survive, Homo-colonialis didn't survive, Hera-sapien did.