400 replies to this topic

[AndyP]

I liked it in an it's okay fashion.  The first hour or so was great, the 2nd was weak but, had its moments. I don't have a problem with them saying that it was all God.  The problem I have is that they did so without revealing anything about God or give any purpose. Another problem is that, and maybe I am wrong here, but wasn't the world gripped in an ice age 150,000 years ago.  In fact weren't the highlands buried under 1000 feet of ice thus giving Tyrol no place to settle.  Bronn Stone has it right about Hera or at least half right.  Her being mitochondrial Eve doesn't mean that others failed.  Each of us might be descended from different colonist or cylons but all of us are descended from Hera.  Some more thoughts later.

[mcbigski]

Since it was after the first season where I figured that the overarching plot of the show would be that God was going trick the Cylons into cross breeding with the humans in order to overthrow the Lords of Kobol, prophecy, and the cycle of repetition, I have a hard time understanding why people think they made up everything as they went along.  (Though I did think that the part of Kara Thrace would end up being played by Felix Gaeta, who was just Gaeta then so I guess it is all just retcons or something - or maybe it's the nature of tales to grow in the telling.  Where I have heard that before?)   You could make the argument that it's a rip-off of Frank Herbert and Leto's Golden Path, but once they started hitting on the "All of this has happened before" theme it seemed likely they'd be working on a divinely planned breeding program directed towards establishing free will and overthrowing prophecy.  (And that God was playing the Cylons for chumps from the get go - if parents have to die for their children to come into their own, the Cylons were inadvertently bringing about their own extinction from as soon as they hooked up Sharon and Helo.)

All of the broad brushes for the finale were pretty much established by 'Kobol's Last Gleaming' with the exception of the final five and the fakeout earth, which is mostly just details.  Of course, if you're adamant that there's no place for mysticism in your outer space settings, then things have probably seemed incoherent since about the third episode.  And nothing was really going to please you anyway once they could no longer keep kicking the can down the road by being deliberately ambiguous about whether or not HeadSix was a chip, Pythia was all coincidence, etc.

After noodling it about more today, I've come to the conclusion that Lee's idea to give up their tech is still logically stupid, but emotionally resonant.  It seems logically stupid to me, but then I'm not one of 30,000 survivors out of 30 billion or so people who got slaughtered by machines, and who visited two other planets where genocide occured by exactly the same dynamic.  Keeping their tech effectively means installing themselves as the new Lords of Kobol over the proto-humans of earth.  It perpetuates the cycle.  Think about Cavil's speech about experiencing a super nova, that's something that's on a machine's scale, but in contrast a human's natural place is sailing across a sea, tilling the earth or climbing a mountain in the open air, rather than floating inside a tin can in a vacuum far from the warmth of a star.  They've had enough of that, and want to just be humans instead of gods or titans.  Or something like that.  It's about the things with primal appeal instead of rational appeal.  

It's still obviously a contrived plot point in the service of making the Colonials and Cylons the ancestors of modern Earth humans, but I do find some themes there that have an emotional appeal.

[Bronn Stone]

EHK for a True GOP, on Mar 21 2009, 19.40, said:

Yeah I can fill in the potential pieces on my own and they're not nonsensical ones like much of the rest of the show is, but it still strikes me as a tad lame and deterministic. Not to mention depressing and fruitless for the entire cast and series, since the inevitable conclusion is that they all die out on their 'newfound paradise'. It raises a real 'What was the point?' question. Homo-sapien didn't survive, Homo-colonialis didn't survive, Hera-sapien did.

Seems a lot better than the dreariness of New Caprica even before the occupation.

Live out your natural days in a paradise of peace.  And even if you have no children in the long term, you still know that a sapient race arose because of your efforts.

Certainly Helo and Athena got a LOT better than Helo expected when Sharon took off from Caprica in that Raptor.  
Adama got his quiet house on a hill and maybe an annual spin around the neighborhood in his Raptor (until the tylium ran out).  
Roslin died knowing she'd at the very least let her people live out their lives in peace under the warm sun.  
Baltar got to kiss someone who looks just like Tricia Helfer.  A lot.  A lot.  A lot.  And he could finally look himself in the mirror and not be ashamed.
Tyrol at least avenged Cally.
Saul and Ellen spent their remaining days together.
Hoshi found out he really didn't want to be an Admiral.

And Dualla.  Makes her choice that much more regrettable.

[Grim Shady]

Uh oh...looks like Syfy has another BSG spinoff planned.

Seems that Anders had second thoughts about flying into the sun and returned and found some folks on Earth who were willing to crew Galactica.

Don't act so surprised, you knew this was coming.

[TrackerNeil]

mcbigski, on Mar 21 2009, 22.00, said:

Keeping their tech effectively means installing themselves as the new Lords of Kobol over the proto-humans of earth.

Well, to be honest, I suspect the Colonials might well have been able to dominate the cavemen even without the tech they sent into the sun. They can give up their gadgets but retain their knowledge of how to make them. Even someone who's not a techie understands the wheel, the advantages of leverage, how to make fire, the real cause of infection, and so forth. It's alot easier to make a crossbow when you know exactly what one is and how it works than if you are a pre-language Neanderthal who has difficulty fire-hardening a spear. Unless the primitives had them vastly outnumbered, the Colonials could probably have banded together to dominate them.

[aynatal2000]

Sebastian, on Mar 21 2009, 21.36, said:

Looking through a few different forums and blogs, I'm simply baffled how well this ending is received on average. I'm seriously doubting the sanity of people who like it. This is not supposed to be an insult, I really don't understand. It seems to me like an obvious, almost mathematical truth that this ending is an abomination. I just cannot contemplate that anyone would enjoy it, let alone think it the best series finale ever.

Unexpectedly, I really like the TWOP recaplet for this episode. These recaps are written by someone who seems to be in love with Galactica. He gave an A+ to almost every episode, no matter how boring. In the recaps, he usually interprets some hidden depths that the writers probably never thought about. So I was expecting him to love the finale, instead I'm pleasantly surprised to find out that he didn't. At all.

What's really funny is that everyone is ticked off about the ending...but they got part or even more than they wanted!!!!LOL
We all wanted Baltar to be a...Cylon; a hybrid anything rather than the shallow self srving twit he appeared to be - and we got a different Baltar - an honorable decent man who shed his skin and went back to his roots... a farner.

We wanted the Final Five to be mystical, powerful - a bridge to change or discovery- and we got that
Everyone wanted Hera to be this great, super hybrid able to bring a new awareness to both sides and hopefully stop the war...and we got that.
Moore gave us the great space battle we were drooling for - and gave some serious payback to folks who thought their shit didn't stink.( The look on Tory's face was priceless  and the one on Galen's face was maniacal as he killed her.)Boomer saying she felt she had made her last choice and telling them to let the old man know she had owed him one... without the crappy flashbacks you wouldn't have known what she was talking about.
And what about the old man? Pathetic as he watched Galactica dying - cylons on her decks  changing her forever.Hard on a soldier to see his love dying before his eyes and he had to watch it 24/7 with Roslin dying too.But his ladies put it to him in the end; stood up and did the nasty, gave him something to go out and roar about and they still held on
And Kara?Last but not least the fact that everone agreed to give up all the amenities of their superioir lifestyle to be farmers, to work hard to not have to run anymore or slowly starve or beware that a familiar face might kill you - that seemed to surprise you all after the viciousness of the recon mission and the thousands they had lost?
You can all complain about it but you will be talking about this finale for a long time...and that is just what Mr Moore and company wanted

[Xanrn]

Yep it will be used for years as a gauge of how crap a series ending is, it will be "well atleast it wasn't as bad as BSG ending" till something comes along that wins the Jesters Cap.

As for Machines are Bad crap was just pathetic, no making Machines and using them as slaves and whining when they rise up is Bad.

The giving up technology is fucking retarded from all levels, yeah I am sure when they are dying from 101 diseases, minor cuts or being eaten by Sabretooth tigers, they will be glad they don't have advanced medicine, firearms or fucking disinfected.

150,000 ya is just ridiculus, couldn't have picked a slightly more believable bloody number, like 10,000 bc or 2012 AD.

[Relic]

so wait, i re-watched some of the episode and im still baffled by the Starbuck thing. Was she a ghost or something? And if so what the fuck?

[Bill Idol]

what the fuck is right











what a debacle

[EHK for Darwin]

aynatal2000, on Mar 21 2009, 23.53, said:

What's really funny is that everyone is ticked off about the ending...but they got part or even more than they wanted!!!!LOL
We all wanted Baltar to be a...Cylon; a hybrid anything rather than the shallow self srving twit he appeared to be - and we got a different Baltar - an honorable decent man who shed his skin and went back to his roots... a farner.

We wanted the Final Five to be mystical, powerful - a bridge to change or discovery- and we got that
Everyone wanted Hera to be this great, super hybrid able to bring a new awareness to both sides and hopefully stop the war...and we got that.
Moore gave us the great space battle we were drooling for - and gave some serious payback to folks who thought their shit didn't stink.( The look on Tory's face was priceless  and the one on Galen's face was maniacal as he killed her.)Boomer saying she felt she had made her last choice and telling them to let the old man know she had owed him one... without the crappy flashbacks you wouldn't have known what she was talking about.
And what about the old man? Pathetic as he watched Galactica dying - cylons on her decks  changing her forever.Hard on a soldier to see his love dying before his eyes and he had to watch it 24/7 with Roslin dying too.But his ladies put it to him in the end; stood up and did the nasty, gave him something to go out and roar about and they still held on
And Kara?Last but not least the fact that everone agreed to give up all the amenities of their superioir lifestyle to be farmers, to work hard to not have to run anymore or slowly starve or beware that a familiar face might kill you - that seemed to surprise you all after the viciousness of the recon mission and the thousands they had lost?
You can all complain about it but you will be talking about this finale for a long time...and that is just what Mr Moore and company wanted

Wha what? Is that klingon or something?

Quote

You can all complain about it but you will be talking about this finale for a long time...and that is just what Mr Moore and company wanted

He could have aired 3 hours of maggots taking apart an animal carcass and people would be talking about it for a while. That's not necessarily a good thing.

Also, all that insane random bs you listed? Nobody wanted it.

Edited by EHK for a True GOP, 22 March 2009 - 01:01 AM.

[Lord O' Bones]

Starbucks "resolution" trumps every other complaint I have about this by miles.

[Grim Shady]

Relic, on Mar 22 2009, 01.27, said:

so wait, i re-watched some of the episode and im still baffled by the Starbuck thing. Was she a ghost or something? And if so what the fuck?

Your guess is as good as mine.  I kept waiting for Jennifer Love Hewitt to pop out of the grass and tell Lee that Starbuck had moved into the light.

[kalbear]

What the fuck was up with Cavil blowing his brains out?

[Bill Idol]

that shit was a lolwtf

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

With all the actors have personalized visions for the directions they wanted their characters to go plus Ron Moore's clear lack of coherent plan at any point for the series, is it any wonder that BSG frakked up in the end?

Moore: "And at this part, Eddie, you will strike random crewman in the face."
Olmos: "I don't like that. I do not think that it is in Adama's character. How about I give an inspiring speech instead?"
Bamber" "That would be great, then Lee could be the one to start the dramatic clap at the end. I think Lee's character disparately wanted to start the clap, but he didn't get to start the last speech claps due to Tigh the last time and Roslin the time before."
Moore: "Sure. Whatever."
Callis: "Over here! Will we, PLEASE, ever get around to explaining what's going on in my head with Head Caprica?"
Helfer: "And Head Baltar?"
Moore: "Sorry, we simply don't have the room for that in any upcoming episodes. Now onto more pressing matters...I want to add some scenes that let us really know what's going on for the characters of Battlestar Galactica..."
Callis: "...like Head Caprica?"
Park: "...why Hera matters?"
Hogan: "...the Cylon plan?"
Hatch: "...the point of the coup in the grand narrative?"
Douglas: "...the point of Tyrol's depressing life?"
Sackhoff: "...how I came back to life?"
Helfer: "...who is God or the Lords of Kobol?"
Moore: "Shut it! No, I was thinking more along the lines of a nudey bar, Mrs. Robinson, and a broom with some pigeons."
Stockwell: "I'm so tired of this shit! If stupidity goes on any longer, I could just kill myself..."
Moore: "Great idea! I'll write that in for the finale. Now back to those pigeons..."
Rhodes (Cottle): *breaks 4th wall* "Look out everyone. Put on your safety glasses. There's a lot of loose ends flying together all at once."

[Yagathai]

Regina, on Mar 20 2009, 21.02, said:

Favorite moment from the series?  

Saul killing Ellen.  Need I say more?

ETA:  Romo showing that the pen is, in fact, mightier than the sword gets an honorable mention.

"It's in the frakkin' SHIP!"

[Yagathai]

As rarely as this happens, I agree with both Aggie and Ran, and disagree with EHK and the rest of the folks that just didn't get/like it (which, truth be told, actually confuses and frightens me a bit.  Could I be wrong?  It isn't likely, but it's theoretically possible...).  It seems like the people that are complaining are... I don't want to say that they don't get it, but I think maybe they were looking for the wrong thing out of the series.  I mean, BSG was ultimately a gnostic narrative wrapped in a hard science fiction candy coating, and that direction was apparent from S3 onwards.  Now, that can be hard to accept for someone that's been watching it as a hard-nosed sci-fi series, like finding out that under the candy shell your M&Ms aren't made of chocolate, but rather chicken liver -- but that's not the chicken's fault, is it?  Maybe you should have read the label more carefully.

Half the freakin' cast has spent the entire damn series talking about "god's plan", so is it any surprise that in the end it all turns out to be, well, god's plan?  Maybe because there were robots and FTL you were confused or alarmed by the presence of angels and apparitions and miracles, but I can't help but think that if you had been paying attention the whole time, the clues were there -- or at least the narrative hooks were present enough that the end could be hung upon it with a minimum of fuss and bother (minus the whole "yes, let us live off the land like a simple folk, and give up antibiotics and sanitation and toilet paper" thing.  Like, seriously, not one decision has ever been made without the civilian fleet bitching and moaning about it.  Switch to low-energy light bulbs?  Call a meeting of the quorum!  Have Zarek bomb something!  Mutiny!  But change from a technologically advanced culture with nuclear power and FTL to a simple hunter-gatherer society, taking with you nothing more than the clothes on your back?  Sure thing, guys.  Whatever you say!).

So, you know, I take back what I said earlier.  You didn't have to like it -- that's fair.  I can see how chicken liver is not to everyone's taste.  It's even OK to hate it.  But to say that it was crap, or it didn't work, or that it made no sense, well, that does actually mean that you didn't get it.

[Jon AS]

I keep thinking about the finale (and I don't think that's due to the quality of the episode, it's because of the fact that I've been following this show for five years) and if anything, my estimate of its quality has dropped.

So either Hera is incredibly special and none of the other 30000+ survivors had any offspring that survived, completely destroying the sense of "happy ending" these people got after all the hardships they had to endure, or Hera was in fact just one of the many ancestors of humankind. In which case she isn't particularly special as far as I can tell, so what the hell was the point of the dramatic rescue mission? If all god wanted was for Kara to point them to the "real" earth (and btw, what a stupid giant fakeout the mid-season discovery of Cylon-Earth turned out to be...), couldn't it just have given her slightly more specific instructions? But no, all those people had to die in order to ensure the survival of the human race.

Actually, speaking of which, when did survival become purely a question of passing on their genes to these people? Large chunks of the show were dedicated to showing the Colonials fighting to hang on to their cultural, religious and poilical traditions, to their refusal to give up the cornerstones of their very civilization and now, in the very last episode, they decide to throw it all out the window, to finish what the Cylons did in the miniseries and effectively wipe themselves out? I guess the hybrid in Razor was right, Kara Thrace really did lead the human race as they knew it to its end. The surviving Colonials (or possibly just Hera) interbred with the indigenous humans (and I can't be the only one extremely grossed out thinking about the specifics of how that came about?) but it took their descendants 150000 years to rebuild a civilization that started to approach the one they'd lost. Maybe that was god's plan? Slow down human progress to ensure people act more responsibly? Of course, that doesn't really mesh well with our own history, or the stupid robot montage at the end...

[Lord O' Bones]

Ignoring the science; Yags, Ran, Aggie et al: Starbuck, WTF!?

[EHK for Darwin]

Yagathai, on Mar 22 2009, 03.57, said:

So, you know, I take back what I said earlier.  You didn't have to like it -- that's fair.  I can see how chicken liver is not to everyone's taste.  It's even OK to hate it.  But to say that it was crap, or it didn't work, or that it made no sense, well, that does actually mean that you didn't get it.

Why are you under this misapprehension that there's something to get? This show has been the victim of adhoc retconing, make shit up as you go along, pure out of your ass, fuck all previous foundation or the complete absense of foundation storytelling for years now. 'God's plan' isn't an answer, its a cookie-cutter catchall for all the things they didn't have a plan for or couldn't figure a solution to. Any notion that it all works or fits together is complete delusion because the fact is, anything they came up with (or as is the case for most of this, the 'nothing' that they came up with) would fit because 'Gods plan' covers everything you want it to by default. There's nothing thought-provoking or intrinsically creative about it. They just wrote a bunch of shit season after season without enough thought given to any sort of logical, meaningful, or satisfying conclusion at 4 seasons, 20 episodes later slapped a 'God did it' sticker on it and called it a day.

I fail to see how the fact that they had mystical shit on there before gives them a pass for what can only be called horrifically weak storytelling. Perhaps every show should introduce something supernatural so that they have a get out of jail free card for every tight story spot they write themselves into.

And even if we forgive and ignore this shit, what about the recent instances of storytelling that can only be called nonsensical and implausible by any contextual or real world standard? Noone pitching a fit after Adama decides to send the best remnants of humanity into the meat grinder to save a single girl? The 'lets go caveman' bullshit?

Not only is it crap, but its monumental crap. Trip, fall, and drown in an ocean of shit crap. I'm not knocking anyones taste who thinks otherwise (except for the indefensible statement that it was the 'best finale ever'.), but I'm fairly comfortable saying that there's nothing I've missed. Nothing I didn't 'get'. It just failed on just about every conceivable level. You'd have to try REALLY frakkin hard (IMO) to write a bigger disaster than this. This ain't chicken liver, its chicken shit.