346 replies to this topic

[Emo Jon Snow]

Malt, on 21 February 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Wert, where did you get the info on the shared mythology?

I don't want to speak for him, but a lot of references come from interviews with Sanderson and then put together by the fandom.  Some information does come from the books, TWOK has given a good deal of information, and I think its the first time we hear the word "cosmere" mentioned.

[Owayn The Traveller]

The progression in his writing between even the first Mistborn and Way of Kings is staggering. The characters didn't feel as flat in Way of Kings. Brandon is going to improve a lot more over the coming years.
Some of the criticism on here is warranted but there has been a bit of snobbery as well.
I'm sure that even George RR Martin didn't start off at his current level and he improved over the years. How long was the gap between his first publication and Game of Thrones?
Robert Jordan didn't really improve in his writing from The Eye of the World to Knife of Dreams.
I think Sanderson is one of the better fantasy writers that came out in the early part of the century. Interesting and original concepts, improving all the time, very open with information about his process and is a beast in getting books done. Compare Peter V Brett, Patrick Rothfuss and Scott Lynch in there releasing speed.
Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, Brandon Sanderson, and Patrick Rothfuss are the best writers that came out in the last 5-6 years.

[AverageGuy]

Mack Kilimaro, on 19 February 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Any time I hear about Brandon Sanderson's ambitious book plans, I can only think he's nuts. I mean, think about this: what is the hallmark of the epic fantasy series in modern times? Starts out as a trilogy or five books or whatever and keeps expanding, expanding... and here comes Sanderson with his planned ten-book Stormlight Archive and now he's talking about a plan for a 36-book master universe overstory or whatever. That's some mad genius level stuff right there.

On the other hand, he doesn't show any signs of slowing down yet. I think he may actually be a robot.

Yeah.  On the one hand he's had it planned all along, on the other being planned doesn't preclude bloated monsters (e.g. Malazan). But like you said, Sanderson keeps going, and on top of that he does seem to be able to keep a tighter focus on his plots, so we'll see what happens.

[polishgenius]

Owayn The Traveller, on 21 February 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I think Sanderson is one of the better fantasy writers that came out in the early part of the century. Interesting and original concepts, improving all the time, very open with information about his process and is a beast in getting books done. Compare Peter V Brett, Patrick Rothfuss and Scott Lynch in there releasing speed.
Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, Brandon Sanderson, and Patrick Rothfuss are the best writers that came out in the last 5-6 years.

While I'm not the hugest fan of Sanderson (based entirely on the Mistborn trilogy - I probably will try Way of Kings someday but I'm hesitant) I am very glad that he exists as a writer. He's taking traditional fantasy narrative tropes and chucking them in with trappings and ideas that would previously have been bundled in under 'New Weird' or just miscellaneous. Certainly, he's not the only one doing this but he's by far the most prominent and to my eye he's already having an effect- I doubt we'd have seen Redick or Tchaikovsky, both writers I enjoy, and others of their ilk given nearly as much exposure if Sanderson hadn't made his success.

[Roose Bolton's Pet Leech]

Owayn The Traveller, on 21 February 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

I'm sure that even George RR Martin didn't start off at his current level and he improved over the years. How long was the gap between his first publication and Game of Thrones?

I'm not sure Martin is a good example, at least if you're using ASOIAF as his reference point. From the early 1970s onwards, he was well-known for writing superb sci-fi short stories, and in the early 1980s he dabbled with horror, producing works like Fevre Dream. While AGOT came out in the mid-to-late 1990s, he's been a major author in speculative fiction for four decades, and his quality has been consistent (at least until ASOS came out. AFFC and ADWD potentially suggest some rot has set in).

Edited by Roose Bolton's Pet Leech, 22 February 2012 - 12:56 AM.

[Garlan the Gallant]

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that despite Sanderson priding himself on his magic systems that he does not place large limitations on the systems themselves. This mainly happens in the mistborn trilogy. I will give him credit where credit is due: Sanderson does have very unique magic systems. Characters are limited to what magic they can perform by the reader's understanding of the system. However, in the Mistborn trilogy, the characters never seem to run out of little bits of metal to ingest to perform such magics. In fact, during the original trilogy, it got to the point where the mentioning of the ingesting of the metals served no purpose at all. Further, in the Mistborn standalone novel, it is noted that one of the main character's metals is highly expensive...yet he never runs out of the metal during the entire novel. it irks me that the system is centered on the ingesting of metals - and thus Sanderson places a limitation on the system - but never uses that very limitation and really skirts around it during the entire series. That being said, his magic systems are a ton of fun.

[Drusilla]

Garlan the Gallant, on 22 February 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

yet he never runs out of the metal during the entire novel. it irks me that the system is centered on the ingesting of metals - and thus Sanderson places a limitation on the system - but never uses that very limitation and really skirts around it during the entire series.

Vin does run out of atium. I always assumed other metals just weren't expensive. maybe gold, but it was not that useful and necessary.


I'm halfway through Hero of Ages. The characters could be written better, but overall, I really enjoyed the books. And I see everybody agrees that magic system is really good.

Edited by Drusilla, 22 February 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[Samalander]

Garlan the Gallant, on 22 February 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Further, in the Mistborn standalone novel, it is noted that one of the main character's metals is highly expensive...yet he never runs out of the metal during the entire novel. it irks me that the system is centered on the ingesting of metals - and thus Sanderson places a limitation on the system - but never uses that very limitation and really skirts around it during the entire series. That being said, his magic systems are a ton of fun.

In Alloy of law:
The Protagonist is filthy rich.
The Antagonist is a highly capable criminal without scruple.
Thus, they both, for different reasons, have no problem with obtaining the metals they need.

[SkynJay]

Owayn The Traveller, on 21 February 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

The progression in his writing between even the first Mistborn and Way of Kings is staggering. The characters didn't feel as flat in Way of Kings. Brandon is going to improve a lot more over the coming years.
Some of the criticism on here is warranted but there has been a bit of snobbery as well.

Compare Peter V Brett, Patrick Rothfuss and Scott Lynch in there releasing speed.
Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, Brandon Sanderson, and Patrick Rothfuss are the best writers that came out in the last 5-6 years.

In no way am I going to judge the quality of someones writting by the criteria of output quanity.

And I will give you Lynch and Abercrombie on the top teir of new, but Sanderson is firmly in teir 2 for me.  Entertaining, but no where near their level.  I have read Way of Kings and the first Mistborn, and I enjoyed them both(quit halfway through the second Mistborn, hope to get back to it later).  But I saw a regression, not an increase in quality.  Maybe it was tighter editing, but Way of Kings had some horrible infodumps placed in the worst of places(still thinking of the opening action scene that had its tension killed by a magic lesson).

It's not to say I hated it, and I plan on reading the next Stormbringer when it hits, but I still say Sanderson is an amazing idea man, and a fairly good, but not great, writer.

[dbcooper]

SkynJay, on 22 February 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

but Way of Kings had some horrible infodumps placed in the worst of places(still thinking of the opening action scene that had its tension killed by a magic lesson).

I almost threw the book away after reading the opening sequence, but I was very glad I didn't.  I agree Way of Kings has it's problems but if one can look past them, there's a really great book to find.  The growth Sanderson has had as a writer from Mistborn to Way of Kings is really tremendous.  The main plot in Way of Kings has huge potential and isn't a standard good vs evil struggle (yet), the characters are more dynamic and emotional than his previous work (Shallan vs Vin) and the world is built on a large scale and is quite imaginative.  You can still find some of the same flaws his earlier work has.. ill-placed expositions/infodumps, overly verbose explainations and hokey dialogue, but I found what he did right far outweighs what he did wrong.

Edited by dbcooper, 22 February 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[Grack21]

You know I still have yet to read WoK but I thought Warbreaker was a noticeable improvement over the Mistborn Series.

[Peter Ahlstrom]

Brandon has an essay on the importance of limitations in a magic system here: http://www.brandonsa...sons-Second-Law

There was a section in The Hero of Ages when Vin didn't have any metals at all...

[Emo Jon Snow]

Peter Ahlstrom, on 23 February 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Brandon has an essay on the importance of limitations in a magic system here: http://www.brandonsa...sons-Second-Law

There was a section in The Hero of Ages when Vin didn't have any metals at all...

I always thought the limitations of the Mistborn novels was in what each Misting could and couldn't do, which added to the suspense of them.  I also think if Vin wasn't this bad ass killing machine you would end up with people complaining how lame she was and didn't do anything with her awesome powers.  Can't please everyone.

[kevinbgwrites]

I'm shocked on a forum populated by those who appreciate and have read ASOIAF that people can even tolerate this guy.

I was shocked when I was duped by amazon reviews to pick up the first Mistborn book, which I forced myself through in hopes I was missing something.

The characters in the series are where most of the problems ultimately stem from. We have Vin and Kelsier as the main characters. Despite being the most fleshed out, Vin was never ever slightly likable with her plethora of inner monologues and brother issues. Kelsier fared better, but still felt pretty generic and had too many lines and moments evidently made to force the reader to like him. The rest of the characters are vague, scarcely fleshed out shadows, with single attributes that define them. Unfortunately this is even the case for the lord ruler. Even after seeing the twist coming, I was pretty curious to find out about him, and sloshed through the mediocre filler antagonists to get to the end, only to find him as a very generic dark lord entity.

I've heard Brandon speak, and he's an intelligent guy. He gives advice on showing rather than telling, and I expected quality closer to GRRM's work based on that, tet he has a terrible habit of stating the obvious and never implying things. Sometimes it is needed, because the characters reactions are so unbelievable you need to hear it from them, other times it is obvious but stated anyways. The prose was redundant and grating, but I think everyone reading Sanderson gets that.

The pacing is also utterly terrible. Brandon clearly wanted to make a story about an epic uprising, but wasn't too clear on how to get to the actual uprising. We meet the characters and get some description of the world, before the plethora of training sections. The whole noble parties could have been fun, but dialogue and characterization is just so weak that everyone came across as copy pastes of stereotypes, especially Kliss who we meet for a second, then later on is abruptly an informer(which also doesn't go anywhere).

Once the actual uprising occurs the pace goes from slow to wildly erratic, with random bursts of heroism, false flag deaths, sacrifices etc. But it is all cramped in such a close section, and glued together so poorly, the events are jagged and odd. The occurrences themselves are also very unbelievable, such as the event which sets off the uprising- which was very cliche(right out of an anime), and spelled out immediately in the next chapter.

The fact there are two books after that one is a shocker and screams of "milking."

As much as I rag on him, props to him for finishing a book, and I'm glad he's found success with something he loves. He is also imaginative, just bad at expressing it in an even remotely image invoking or interesting way. And I must say, despite him not even pitching in the same field as GRRM, at least he can wrap up a story.

It is more the fanatical reviews that disturb me.

[Migey]

You really are not giving him a fair chance, i'd say.

I personally like Mistborn a lot, but can see why others wouldn't - please note it the second book he ever published, and while he started out as perhaps less then mediocre, there is a noticeable increase in quality as you read through his later books (compare Elantris to the Way of Kings for example and it is hard to believe they were written by the same author).

I understand many of his characters come off as generic in Mistborn, although I can assure you that if you read on in the series, the Lord Ruler becomes much more interesting, and less 'Dark Lord' ey.

Most of the peolpe who like the book, such as I, like it because of the imagination in the world and magic system, while being able to ignore the perhaps not so strong prose or characterisation.

Personally, I recommend you read Warbreaker. It's one of his later books - it's much more solid, despite a rather weak opening few chapters after the first, and you can read it for free on his website. His characterisation, prose, and all round writing in it are noticeably better then in Mistborn, and it also features an interesting magic system. Try it, and if you like it, maybe go back to some of his other works - if you don't, then you havn't lost anything.

I disagree with much of your assessment of the book, but if you dislike it, then thats your perogative. I do however think that Brandon Sanderson is a fantastic author (moreso now then he used to be) and I think he deserves another chance - particuarly as one of his more recent, higher quality works is up for free on his website (why it is, I don't know, but i'm not complaining).

Edited by Migey, 11 March 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[polishgenius]

I second what Migey said about the Dark Lord becoming more interesting, but unfortunately, for me that development was couched in two books which were even worse paced and with even less interesting characters otherwise than the first one. I barely skimmed the third. =/

I want to like Sanderson, and I will probably give WoK a try someday, but I was rather disappointed with Mistborn as a trilogy.


Bit odd to say that people who like Martin should somehow not like this, though. It's not as if it's an inferior version of the same type of thing, he's writing a completely different sort of story.

[kevinbgwrites]

Different story yes but the writing, characters, and pacing are all measureable elements, which are SO vastly different. I think I gave him a fair chance in reading his entire book, no? And there is no way I would read the following two books after what could have been, and was intended as a standalone novel.

Being imaginative is great and all, but you need at least one of the other talents to compliment it. The way he does exposition on his imaginative world and especially magic systems is horrendous for example, so I couldn't even enjoy that. Look at name of the wind. Pretty decent writing, but couldn't plot or build a character for his life.

I know I might sound hateful but I don't mean to be, I just really don't get it.

[Shryke]

SkynJay, on 22 February 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

In no way am I going to judge the quality of someones writting by the criteria of output quanity.

And I will give you Lynch and Abercrombie on the top teir of new, but Sanderson is firmly in teir 2 for me.  Entertaining, but no where near their level.  I have read Way of Kings and the first Mistborn, and I enjoyed them both(quit halfway through the second Mistborn, hope to get back to it later).  But I saw a regression, not an increase in quality.  Maybe it was tighter editing, but Way of Kings had some horrible infodumps placed in the worst of places(still thinking of the opening action scene that had its tension killed by a magic lesson).

It's not to say I hated it, and I plan on reading the next Stormbringer when it hits, but I still say Sanderson is an amazing idea man, and a fairly good, but not great, writer.

Way of Kings is a bloated mess and generic as hell in plotting. The setting is certainly unique, but the rest of the novel is overly long, the writing is often really bad (especially the infodumps like you are reading a PnP RPG sourcebook) and alot of the plotting is horribly predictable.

I had much higher hopes for him after enjoying the Mistborn series.

[peterbound]

kevinbgwrites, on 11 March 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

Different story yes but the writing, characters, and pacing are all measureable elements, which are SO vastly different. I think I gave him a fair chance in reading his entire book, no? And there is no way I would read the following two books after what could have been, and was intended as a standalone novel.

Being imaginative is great and all, but you need at least one of the other talents to compliment it. The way he does exposition on his imaginative world and especially magic systems is horrendous for example, so I couldn't even enjoy that. Look at name of the wind. Pretty decent writing, but couldn't plot or build a character for his life.

I know I might sound hateful but I don't mean to be, I just really don't get it.

I think you are misjudging the importance of BS on this board.  Most around here consider him a work horse of an author, but nothing special.  

Personally, i dislike the guy.  For a whole slew of reasons, least of which being he's not that great of an author.

[kevinbgwrites]

My disbelief isn't strictly from the guy having a thread here, but also a product of the insane reviews on amazon/him being a published author.