146 replies to this topic

[GreenHand]

Gaugebear, on 09 May 2011 - 02:16 PM, said:

I totally understand that you all really want to see Ben Stark again, and I get the whole trying to extrapolate his character anywhere and everywhere possible thing, but I am of the opinion your all way way off on this one.

George does not write shit in his books for no reason, and he goes to great length to introduce the story of "the Nights king" and his Cold bride before we run into Coldhands for a second time. I think its page 629 & 630 of the large version of Storm of Swords.

He kinda clearly said that "The Nights king" gave his seed to this un-dead bride and with it his soul. I am taking this for the birth of the Coldhands Character. I mean it directly relates to the Nightfort, cold hands knows the way in and shows Sam but cannot go there himself... I dunno read it yourselves again, but I really this that story was put in to give you some ideas of where cold hands might have come from. but yeah, I really think ColdHands to be a relation of the Nights king and Wight Bride.

Like Scylla, I am particularly intrigued with this possibility. In fact it makes a lot of sense to the question of what makes Coldhands different to the other wights that he can remain conscious, self-possessed and will volition. A half-wight, literally born of a wight rather than turned after Death.

A Storm of Swords, Chapter 56, Bran said:

For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen,...

Turning to the text we see that they ruled, wed (and presumably sharing sexual congress), for 13 years. That's more than enough time to sire a son. And since boy grow up fast in brutal North the son may even have joined the Night's Watch himself before his father was removed from his "throne". Jon Snow joined the Watch at 14 years of age. The son of the Night's King may well have been 13 years old. And what else was he to do growing up on the wall. The Watch under his parents would have been all he knew.

[GreenHand]

As to the argument that Coldhands is being controlled by Bloodraven because he was expecting Bran (from BR's greenseer/omniwarg surveillance?) and because he was able to take Bran right to the COTF/Greenseer cave (communicating/serving BR/COTF?)...

Coldhands tells Bran that Wights can sense warmth (in living biological bodies) and are drawn towards it. Since it becomes clear that by all the physical signs Coldhands is essentially a wight (or equivalent) himself, Coldhands can surely also sense warmth and bodies himself. Thus he would be able to sense the approach of Bran and his companions. Though one might wonder how he knew it was Bran specifically. But it may be that he can recognize energy signatures of individuals.

If we take the companionship of the ravens around Coldhands to mean he is a warg himself: One warg can recognize another, and so there would be another reason for him to recognize and sense a powerful warg like Bran. Since in the Night King's day magic was associated with the Children of the Forest and warging/greenseeing, it is likely that the Night's King may have been a warg as well. And we know that warging has a hereditary/familial component/bias. So Cold hands may well be a warg if he is the son of the Night's King.

If Cold hands can sense heat then I'm sure he can sense the head of the Children of the Forest and Bloodraven in the cave (and so know where it is), even if he cannot enter. Since Bran's company was only attacked by Wights close to the Cave entrance and given that they are drawn to all living warmth, it would seem that all the other wights are just lingering outside the cave undestracted. They also know where the cave is and are drawn to it.

There is no reason to assume that the wights (and by extension Coldhands) are under Bloodraven's Omniwarg control. They attacked Bloodraven's long-awaited apprentice. Bran came willingly, eager to learn. There doesn't seem a need to trick Bran with a false threat just outside the cave.

[GreenHand]

Nonetheless, we are explicitly told that Coldhands is working with Bloodraven.

A Dance With Dragons, Chapter 4, Bran said:

“Who sent you? Who is this
three-eyed crow?”
“A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last green-seer.” The longhall’s wooden
door banged open. Outside, the night wind howled, bleak and black. The trees were full of ravens,
screaming. Cold-hands did not move.
“A monster,” Bran said.
The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. “Your monster, Brandon Stark.”
“Yours,” the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up
the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer’s song of “Yours, yours, yours.”

Does this mean his allegiance is actually to Bran rather than to Bloodraven? I think its quite likely.

As a wight he knows where Bloodraven is. With Bloodraven languishing in his cave a long time and with Coldhands as a conscious, talking wight it seems inevitable that they would make communicative contact at some point. He refers to Bloodraven as a friend, not a master. But he clearly knows him. So despite my argumentation in prior posts: I think he did get his information from BR though I still don't think BR is warg-controlling him. (He seems to think independently. Bloodraven isn't talking through him).

[jon rr stark]

GreenHand, on 16 February 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:

Nonetheless, we are explicitly told that Coldhands is working with Bloodraven.

Does this mean his allegiance is actually to Bran rather than to Bloodraven? I think its quite likely.

As a wight he knows where Bloodraven is. With Bloodraven languishing in his cave a long time and with Coldhands as a conscious, talking wight it seems inevitable that they would make communicative contact at some point. He refers to Bloodraven as a friend, not a master. But he clearly knows him. So despite my argumentation in prior posts: I think he did get his information from BR though I still don't think BR is warg-controlling him. (He seems to think independently. Bloodraven isn't talking through him).

The question here in interpretation of 'your monster'
Does it mean as in a monster of your making - not sure how Bran could have made him or caused him to be. wild theory he is Brandon who wraged into another dead ranger because he knew he had to get to Bran to link hiom with BR hence had to stay alive in some form to help him.
OR a monster in service to Bran. He has a similar objective to Bran which will be to defeat the others. So he could be anybody.
OR being a monster is subjective. In Brans world being dead is a monster, North of the wall existance has a different meaning. You say potato I say pota(h)to?
Another thoiught if he was wandering around north of the wall for soo long maybe Brandon had some contact with him so maybe looking after Bran on Brandons instruction.
Also linked to this whole topic is it consiveable that Brandon didn't know about BR

Edited by jon rr stark, 16 February 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Hodorific]

I figure that a Stark has a great chance of being a warg... and that a warg without a "buddy" may just reach for a wight when dying.  Instincts kicked in, and the dude took over the dead.

[ASOIAF best series ever]

Coldhands could be Night King

[the Houndini]

i dont get why he would be night king? night king fed people to the Others. Thats what Craster did. Is Craster the KK also?  dumb! ColdHands is saving Bran and bringing him to 3EC who seems to be BloodRaven...

Nights King was a man who took a wight as a wife. (oooooooh cold!)

ColdHAnds has sworn himself to Bran, saved Sam and Gillys asses and seems to be down with BR...

Next you'll be saying MAnderly is the RATCOOK! ha

[GreenHand]

the Houndini, on 06 March 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

i dont get why he would be night king? night king fed people to the Others. Thats what Craster did. Is Craster the KK also?  dumb! ColdHands is saving Bran and bringing him to 3EC who seems to be BloodRaven...

Nights King was a man who took a wight as a wife. (oooooooh cold!)

ColdHAnds has sworn himself to Bran, saved Sam and Gillys asses and seems to be down with BR...

Next you'll be saying MAnderly is the RATCOOK! ha

Actually agree with you. That is one of the aspects/reasons to why I personally think Coldhands is more likely to be the SON of the Night's King.

But we know GRRM loves his redemption arcs. Consider Jaime. The Night's King fed people to others and ruled the then mighty Night's Watch and enjoyed the charms of his wight/WW wife some 8000 years ago. That's a long time. All that time, the bitterness of defeat, the loss of his wife or the sense of betrayal his kin (if he was a Stark) felt may have reshaped his perspective. After 8000 years to make peace with the way things turned out and with the madness of wight-love behind him he may now wish to make things right and honour his vows to the Black Brotherhood of the Night's Watch ...by saving his brother Samwell and serving the son Greenseer son of Stark (possibly his own blood. And Starks may feel a family responsibility to protect the North) who will push back the threat from the heart of Winter in the form of his former allies/overlords the White Walkers. So he turns his cloak on the White Walkers in favour of his original loyalties, regreting his past actions.... He would also not be the first character to do that.

[Hodorific]

Now we're talking... the bastard son of the living and the dead.  I like where you took this.

[GreenHand]

Why thank you Hodorific. Put that way (as you do) it does have a certain symmetry and delight. I like it to.
...And it's not even that crackpot/farfetched.

[Dornish Hen]

I have it stuck in my head that Cold Hands is the last hero, although the only "proof" is in the story that Old Nan tells Bran.  In that story Old Nan says that the Last Hero goes out in search of the COTF because he needed to "seek out the children, in the hopes that their ancient magics could win back what the armies of men had lost."  Old Nan never gets to finish the story, but I like to think that he found the COTF and now is trying to help Bran learn those same magics.  After I read that one paragraph of Old Nan's story, I couldn't get it out of my mind!  So when CH showed up, I automatically jumped to the last hero conclusion.

I had never considered the possibility that Cold Hands could be the son of the Night's King!  

I won't be surprised or disappointed if CH turn out to be Benjen, The Night's Prince, or the Last Hero.  I'm glad someone else thinks about it as much as I do!  

Edited by Dornish Hen, 11 March 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[GreenHand]

Hodorific, on 07 March 2012 - 09:45 PM, said:

Now we're talking... the bastard son of the living and the dead.  I like where you took this.

Actually, technically, a son of the Night's King would not be a bastard (As cool as the 'Night's Bastard' sounds), because the Night's King was married to his Other/Wight queen. ...Even if it is the most unholy of marriages. So maybe its an unrecognized marriage by some, hence Bastard evermore.

Son of the Night's King or The Last Hero... Well the two are not mutually exclusive. The son of the Night's King could be the The Last Hero. We are told that The Last Hero outlived his all his animals and friends beyond the Wall ...perhaps because he is a wight (hard to kill). And unlikely to starve or freeze.

We have seen how the 'Prince That Was Promised' and 'Azor Ahai' myths seem to overlap. So other overlaps are not unexpected.

The only problem is his venturing North as a black brother of the Watch. He could have been ranging under orders of the Lord Commander. Either because of a need for the Children who were remembered as friends of the Watch (100  dragonglass daggers each year). Or it was a bogus mission (thought to have no end) given to The Last Hero (who accepted & undertook it ernestly) as a thinly legitimate get rid of him ...I cannot imagine the son of former Lord-Commander, the Night's King, and a half-wight would have been very popular amongst the men of the Watch under new leadership. We saw the reaction to wildlings and a male prostitute on the wall was. Just imagine a half wight. They are definitely and ingrained enemy of the Watch.

[FrozenHonors]

HE IS OBVIOUSLY BENJEN STARK. he got turned into a wright by the white walkers, and that is why he CANT CROSS THE WALL.

the wall is warded by magic to prevent white walkers and wrights from passing through

[The Drunkard]

FrozenHonors, on 14 March 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

HE IS OBVIOUSLY BENJEN STARK. he got turned into a wright by the white walkers, and that is why he CANT CROSS THE WALL.

the wall is warded by magic to prevent white walkers and wrights from passing through

As others have said, this is definitely not the only possibility. NO NEED TO POST LIKE THIS.

[Lady Val]

"I'm your monster, Brandon Stark." That's when I was certain. I pictured the guy with exactly Benjen's features all along, but didn't quite put the connection together until there. Of course he got help from the greenseer (Bloodraven - quite the interesting twist when you think about it - ICE & FIRE=albino bastard Targaryen whose lady mother's House keeps the old gods (Raventree Hall=Blackwood castle)) Who better to escort Bran through the haunted forest than the First Ranger of the Night's Watch who just so happens to be Bran's own blood.. not that there's any blood pumping to those dead, black hands. The fact that his body was never found gives us the oh-so-subtle clue that he still has a crucial role to play.. Who else could Coldhands plausibly be? We aren't close with many of the black brothers who were lost before or after the Fist of the First Men... We know the Varamyr Sixskins died his 9th (?) death, in his human body, and is now part of Bran's secret wolf pack. I feel like Bran will eventually figure that out. Will we see more of Coldhands? What he HELLLL is going on with Jon Snow?

CAN WE PLEASE GET MORE THAN ONE STARK IN THE SAME ROOM AT THE SAME TIME JUST ONE TIME!?! Ugh, a real reunion between Jon Snow and Arya would be SO satisfying to read, knowing that at least once they got to see each other face to face. Poor Jon keeps getting set up with regards to his little sister.. First Alys Karstark then Jeyne Poole.. I wonder how he'd feel if he were told that Arya was a humble servant of the Many Faced God in Braavos, killing men at the behest of learned priest-assassains...? Probably a bit guilty, seeing as he did give her her first real weapon. Though she's far more deadly than he could ever have predicted then. War and desperation and tragic circumstance led her to have a hole where her heart should be. (And I believe that the next time we see Jon Snow his heart will be made of fire, after recieving the gift of R'hllor from Melisandre.. I bet you she thought that allowing her prophecy to come to pass while ALSO saving his life-maybe even making him immortal-was the only way to make him truly accept the "truth" of the Lord of Light) just a random thought. I'm brand new to these things, having just discovered forums at all *and after rereading ADWD for the th-fourth time(!)* so some feedback would be awesome! thanks

[Lady Val]

the Houndini, on 06 March 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:

Next you'll be saying MAnderly is the RATCOOK! ha

MANDERLY IS THE RAT COOK!! (come again) He cooked up three pork pies full of Frey's!! duhhh; the only part that doesn't fit is how he himself was able to stomach 6 portions of FreyPie (2 slices from each of the 3 pies) and not gag and puke.. Do we know if he maybe has spent time on Skaagos? Or is GRRM claiming that his sloth is so pitifully out of control that the thought of eating the flesh of a fellow man does not seem at all repulsive to him. Or maybe its just that sweet word vengeance coming back around again..

'tis quite sweet they tell me.

[Eddward Stark]

I think that Coldhands may be a wight that is controlled by Bloodraven.

I also think that wights are generally controlled by someone -- in most cases, by the Others. In other words, an Other controls a wight via warging.

BR skinchanging into Coldhands explains (1) how Coldhands knew where to meet Bran (BR knew), (2) how all the ravens saved Sam and Gilly (BR controlled them), (3) how Coldhands is different from other wights (he's not, he just has a different master), (4) why Coldhands seldom speaks, and (5) why he can't pass that magic barrier under the wall.

[thegooddoctor]

Lady Val, on 19 March 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

"I'm your monster, Brandon Stark." That's when I was certain. I pictured the guy with exactly Benjen's features all along, but didn't quite put the connection together until there. Of course he got help from the greenseer (Bloodraven - quite the interesting twist when you think about it - ICE & FIRE=albino bastard Targaryen whose lady mother's House keeps the old gods (Raventree Hall=Blackwood castle)) Who better to escort Bran through the haunted forest than the First Ranger of the Night's Watch who just so happens to be Bran's own blood.. not that there's any blood pumping to those dead, black hands. The fact that his body was never found gives us the oh-so-subtle clue that he still has a crucial role to play.. Who else could Coldhands plausibly be? We aren't close with many of the black brothers who were lost before or after the Fist of the First Men... We know the Varamyr Sixskins died his 9th (?) death, in his human body, and is now part of Bran's secret wolf pack. I feel like Bran will eventually figure that out. Will we see more of Coldhands? What he HELLLL is going on with Jon Snow?

CAN WE PLEASE GET MORE THAN ONE STARK IN THE SAME ROOM AT THE SAME TIME JUST ONE TIME!?! Ugh, a real reunion between Jon Snow and Arya would be SO satisfying to read, knowing that at least once they got to see each other face to face. Poor Jon keeps getting set up with regards to his little sister.. First Alys Karstark then Jeyne Poole.. I wonder how he'd feel if he were told that Arya was a humble servant of the Many Faced God in Braavos, killing men at the behest of learned priest-assassains...? Probably a bit guilty, seeing as he did give her her first real weapon. Though she's far more deadly than he could ever have predicted then. War and desperation and tragic circumstance led her to have a hole where her heart should be. (And I believe that the next time we see Jon Snow his heart will be made of fire, after recieving the gift of R'hllor from Melisandre.. I bet you she thought that allowing her prophecy to come to pass while ALSO saving his life-maybe even making him immortal-was the only way to make him truly accept the "truth" of the Lord of Light) just a random thought. I'm brand new to these things, having just discovered forums at all *and after rereading ADWD for the th-fourth time(!)* so some feedback would be awesome! thanks

I think you need to re-read the passage of "I'm your monster"  I don't think that is the actual quote.  Bran says "a monster" in response to CH describing the 3 eyed crow.  CH then responds "your monster".  To me I assumed he meant that the 3 eyed crow was Bran's monster, not CH.

[haverwench]

Prince of the North, on 18 April 2011 - 04:54 PM, said:

Yes, as to how Bloodraven could possibly survive so long:

Spoiler

The upcoming chapter in ADWD concerning Varamyr Sixskins tells us, in no uncertain terms, that a warg could live on in creatures they have warged.

Right, which means that if Benjen Stark was a warg (and the tendency does seem to be pretty strong in the Stark family), he could do the same thing.

So basically, Ben dies, and his soul enters the body of his companion animal (or one of them--he seems to have had many). Then, his body rises as a wight--and his soul reenters it, leaving him a wight with free will.

This, to me, explains absolutely everything about Coldhands: why he knows the location of the Black Gate, and how to get through it, yet can't do so himself; why his hands are black and cold; why he can control animals; why he won't show his face; and not least, why he wants to help Bran.

Moreover, I think that in book 6, Jon Snow may rise from the dead in the same way. Or alternatively, he could be resurrected by the friendly neighborhood priestess of R'hollor. OR, it could be BOTH--raised in ice, then raised again in fire. His is the song of ice and fire, after all.

[Chippyrich]

Bran asks 'Leaf' -who is cold hands?- reply he has been dead a very long time. A long time for the Children of the Forest is thousands of years. So, dead ranger ( wears black) but who he was when alive unknown and irrelevant IMO, just he s a servant of the 3 eyed crow.
Unlikely to be Benjen as he s freshly dead ( if dead).