146 replies to this topic

[Ice-wolf]

Well having gone back and read your theory, i have to concede that they are quite similar

But whats your opinion on TEC controlling Ghost/Mormont's raven?

[Prince of the North]

Ice-wolf, on 12 April 2011 - 04:57 PM, said:

Well having gone back and read your theory, i have to concede that they are quite similar

But whats your opinion on TEC controlling Ghost/Mormont's raven?

Hmm...I'm not sure about Ghost and I lean toward thinking he hasn't been warged with the TEC until I see some sort of textual evidence or clue but I definitely think something's up with Mormont's Raven.  That bird's eerily smart

ETA:  I hope you don't think you're a dunce for coming up with a similar theory and I hope I didn't come across that way.  Hell, I think it makes us both smart

Edited by Prince of the North, 12 April 2011 - 05:06 PM.

[Ice-wolf]

Prince of the North, on 12 April 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

Hmm...I'm not sure about Ghost and I lean toward thinking he hasn't been warged with the TEC until I see some sort of textual evidence or clue

Well there is no real textual evidence that I can bring to mind right now but it's just the fact that Ghost led Jon to the obsidian stash, which I find hard to explain otherwise, I mean I doubt very much that he just happened to smell it or something, also the fact that he disappeared when Jon went over the wall and then reappeared, quite conveniently, at the perfect time, and lastly, the fact that he was constantly 'hunting', he seems to 'hunt' a lot more than any of the other direwolves

I'm definitely going to have a re-read to try and back this arguement up, It's been too long since I've read the books to bring any credible evidence forward  

[Prince of the North]

Ice-wolf, on 13 April 2011 - 03:13 AM, said:

Well there is no real textual evidence that I can bring to mind right now but it's just the fact that Ghost led Jon to the obsidian stash, which I find hard to explain otherwise, I mean I doubt very much that he just happened to smell it or something, also the fact that he disappeared when Jon went over the wall and then reappeared, quite conveniently, at the perfect time, and lastly, the fact that he was constantly 'hunting', he seems to 'hunt' a lot more than any of the other direwolves

I'm definitely going to have a re-read to try and back this arguement up, It's been too long since I've read the books to bring any credible evidence forward  

You know, that's a good point.  I really was not thinking about it much or maybe just chalking it up to "magic" but perhaps Ghost was somehow led to the obsidian cache.  I'd like to think so, at least.  

As far as Ghost showing up at the "right time" goes, for now I just feel like they have an innate connection.  Ghost is probably more attuned to it now, so he can find Jon pretty much anywhere, but I think if Jon's warg powers grow perhaps he'll become more attuned to Ghost as well.  I don't know, just some quick thoughts

[Lannes]

winterqueen, on 28 March 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

I go back and forth on if Benjen Stark is or is not Coldhands.  I really hope we come across Ben Stark (or what is left of Ben) in the upcoming novels. Benjen is referred to so much in the Wall chapters in all the books, he must have a role to play (or so I hope)  

I'm a strong believer that Benjen Stark knows the identity of Jon Snow's mother. Lots of people think Howland Reed is the end all on the mystery of Jon Snow's mother but I think Benjen knows. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Howland Reed knows but I don't think he is the only one. Benjen also grew up with Lyanna at Winterfell.  Ben very well could offer a lot of insight on Lyanna before she was taken (or took off with) by Prince Rhaegar.

I like this idea. I'm a firm believer in R+L=J, but I've always been uneasy that Howland Reed would be 'THE' source of this revealation. Having Ben/Coldhands be involved with the revealing would make a much stronger case.

[kn32]

I've seen a lot of theories about Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven being either Coldhands, the Three-Eyed Crow, or just that he'll show up at some point.

I was just curious if anybody has any good reason why this would be the case, or if he's just a fan favorite and its wishful thinking.

According to the wiki, Brynden is 23 years older than Master Aemon (whose body has long since been pushed to its limits and begun failing in the time we've known him.)

[morbiczer]

kn32, on 15 April 2011 - 07:28 PM, said:

According to the wiki, Brynden is 23 years older than Master Aemon (whose body has long since been pushed to its limits and begun failing in the time we've known him.)

Bloodraven was a sorcerer. Who knows what kind of magical abilities he had. Maybe he could prolong his life? Or maybe his body died a long time ago, but his mind lives on in some form.

If he is Coldhands, then his age wouldn't be a problem at all, since he could have become an undead a long time ago.

[Prince of the North]

morbiczer, on 18 April 2011 - 04:47 PM, said:

Bloodraven was a sorcerer. Who knows what kind of magical abilities he had. Maybe he could prolong his life? Or maybe his body died a long time ago, but his mind lives on in some form.

If he is Coldhands, then his age wouldn't be a problem at all, since he could have become an undead a long time ago.

Yes, as to how Bloodraven could possibly survive so long:

Spoiler

The upcoming chapter in ADWD concerning Varamyr Sixskins tells us, in no uncertain terms, that a warg could live on in creatures they have warged.

[LC Snow]

cerankoman, on 18 April 2009 - 11:24 AM, said:

Coldhands is one of the Children of the Forest. Which describes his dark earth colored skin and his cold touch, Anyone agree?

My vote is for Benjin Stark or Howland Reed.

Think about it, the reason Reed didn't join rob is because he was stuck behind the wall...

[Night's Blade]

LC Snow, on 21 April 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

My vote is for Benjin Stark or Howland Reed.

Think about it, the reason Reed didn't join rob is because he was stuck behind the wall...

I believe that Cold Hands is Benjen. As for Howland Reed, the narrative has stated on more than one occasion that the Crannogmen hardly ever leave the Neck. Now you might counter that Reed was with Ned at the Tower of Joy, but it can be argued that Reed's involvement from Robert's Rebellion stemmed from the debt that he inccured to Lyanna and Ned at the Harrenhal Tourney. Besides, what sort of circumstances would drive Howland Reed to journey to the other side of the Wall? I believe that Howland Reed has a greater part to play later in the series, because he is now the last survivor of the Tower of Joy. Or Martin could be a real jerk and leave that out altogether.

[Gaugebear]

I totally understand that you all really want to see Ben Stark again, and I get the whole trying to extrapolate his character anywhere and everywhere possible thing, but I am of the opinion your all way way off on this one.

George does not write shit in his books for no reason, and he goes to great length to introduce the story of "the Nights king" and his Cold bride before we run into Coldhands for a second time. I think its page 629 & 630 of the large version of Storm of Swords.

He kinda clearly said that "The Nights king" gave his seed to this un-dead bride and with it his soul. I am taking this for the birth of the Coldhands Character. I mean it directly relates to the Nightfort, cold hands knows the way in and shows Sam but cannot go there himself... I dunno read it yourselves again, but I really this that story was put in to give you some ideas of where cold hands might have come from. but yeah, I really think ColdHands to be a relation of the Nights king and Wight Bride.

[Aegon's Landing]

I've only read the summaries of the Dunk & Egg tales, but the Bloodraven/ CH connection just doesn't ring true to me, and I say this for a number of reasons:
-For one thing, for GRRM to bring in a character from a separate work to play more than a "pop in/ cameo" role in this story would be unusual. I say this, because I see ALOT of King's storytelling style in Martin, and know GRRM has had dealings w Stephen King in the past (Sandkings episode from TV) and King was the Master at tying separate works together with cameos from other characters. Use of inner dialogue is a major trait of King's, and GRRM uses it in an identical fashion. -sure alot of authors use this technique, but Martin's use mirrors Kings almost to a T. I see alot of King's influence in Martin's writing, as King was also the Master of the unhappy ending. I see alot of influence from King's The Dark Tower epic in ASoIaF altogether.
My point here is I don't see Martin following King's example so clearly most of the time, only to abandon it by bringing in a character most readers won't readily ID with as a major player. Even if D&E tales were full length novels, not short stories/ GNs, I still don't see it.
Thin. Maybe so.
-Another thing: The use of the 3rd eye is being tied to BRvn's missing eye plus the crow's existing two. This sounds thin to me. I would think Marin is using the 3rd eye as J. Reed explains it to Bran in the text - and also in Syrio's "seeing vs. looking" to Arya. A very 60's, Timothy Leery ideal that jibes w Martin's generation. Using the third eye in a philosophical sense, not 3 eyes. I think those attempting to actually count eyes are taking it too literal.

As for Benjen...

I could see GRRM using him more likely than BRaven, but even that sounds too "Deus Ex Machina" for Martin's style.
Howland Reed would be a more likely choice as CH, but I have no proof of that...only the fact that Martin mentions that the cronogmen hardly ever leave GW...his kids are the ones leading Bran North...he couldn't open the gate because he wasn't on the NW. Even Reed as CH leaves me feeling way off...but closer than BS and BRvn combined.

[morbiczer]

IMO there is absolutely nothing that points towards Howland Reed being Coldhands.

Coldhands is (was) a member of the Night's Watch, since he is dressed in blacks and he calls Sam brother. So if Howland Reed = Coldhands, then:
- Reed in secret left the Neck to join the Watch
- everybody including his Jojen and Meera maintains the ruse that he remains at Greywater Watch
- Reed joined the Watch incognito

Why would he do that?

[Raisin Bran]

Funny thought: it's Bran's word, pretty much, that the Three eyed crow is, well, a crow. If it is Bloodraven, I would find it hilarious if Bran discovered that it's actually a three eyed raven and he just doesn't have good bird identifying skills.  Does Jojun mention call it a crow before hearing about it? heck, just because someone can predict the future doesn't mean they know everything about birds!

[Raisin Bran]

Another thought. If the crow IS Bloodraven, maybe Jon will be pulled into this magical adventure too! Why not? He's a warg, and he and Brynden Rivers have a lot in common; the magical bastards commanding the Wall thing. Plus, Bloodraven was albino, and Ghost is albino. Fun coincidences are fun!

Edited by Angalin, 03 July 2011 - 12:48 AM.
removed ADwD reference

[DaNmarner]

Clearly, Coldhands was NOT:

• A wight: if he was anything, he'd be one of the Others. Wights/Zombies are lifeless things that doesn't think or feel or talk. They are created by the Others.
  
• Ben Stark: (SPOILERS) otherwise Bran would've recognized him in ADWD.
  
• A living man.

What/Who Coldhands definitely was:

• Occupant of a body which, before being Coldhands, was a member of NW.

[SkyPirateJack]

DaNmarner, on 07 July 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

Clearly, Coldhands was NOT:

• A wight: if he was anything, he'd be one of the Others. Wights/Zombies are lifeless things that doesn't think or feel or talk. They are created by the Others.
  
• Ben Stark: (SPOILERS) otherwise Bran would've recognized him in ADWD.
  
• A living man.

What/Who Coldhands definitely was:

• Occupant of a body which, before being Coldhands, was a member of NW.

Not having gotten around to reading ADWD, I can't be sure if there has been a better description of Coldhands; but the same frostbite that turned his hands black could have easily wreaked havok on his features. Combined with the blue eyes (they were blue?), it could be easy for Bran not to recognise him.

But everything else you say is dead on with what I think. Even if he was Ben Stark, he isn't any longer. Coldhands is some sort of agent or proxy that just happens to be using the body of a NW to gain some trust before the big CotF reveal. He may have been in Ben's ranging party which could lead to an even bigger 'Benjen is alive' reveal.

[Gwely Mernans]

I was thinking Coldhands is Ben Stark too, because his appearance resembles a wight and death/wight seems to be the standard fate of MIA rangers.

I also like to think that Benjen might have some of the warg-ing ability that seems to run in Stark veins, which could account for him still being in control of his wight-self (instead of being a zombie from Resident Evil).

[Kim3055]

Coldhands must be Benjen. He never came back from his ranging, his body was never found, and his horse certainly looked like it was attacked by something when it came back to the wall.If the Wildlings got Benjen, we probably would have known about it when Jon joined them, whether they killed him, or kept him. Plus, he is there helping Bran and his group, as well as Sam and Gilly& son. Why he isn't a total wight who seem to want to kill more than help, we don't know yet. But, I have no doubt that George RRM will clarify it all. The fact that Coldhands is dressed in the blacks of the Brothers of the Night's Watch further supports this, and makes it less likely that he is Eddard Stark.

[the Houndini]

It sure looks like Coldhands is Benjen Stark. Maybe partly because we just REALLY WANT IT TO BE! Of course that doesn't mean that we're right...

From what I can guess Coldhands is a Wight, at least of some sort. The question is why is he different. The only explanation is that he is Ben Stark. Here are my reasons why:
Benjen's missing. Why make the distinction of have him be missing. The other rangers with him returned as Wights.
Benjen was raised praying to the old gods of the north. I assume he took his Nights Watch vow like John Snow under a weirwood tree. This may have some effect on becoming a wight... The First Men learned of the Old Gods from the Children of the Forrest, this connection may still exist especially with NW members.
Benjen is a Stark. And we know the blood of the First Men runs strong in them, and on top of that warging also is common in them. We dont know about his brothers and sister and if any of them had this ability, but among his nieces and nephews we know 3 have a strong connection. Even if he doesn't posses the actual ability, his bloodline may have an effect on becoming wight. Im thinking that its some combination of these things if it is him.

I do wonder about the possibility of warging into a wight. I wonder if it's possible. I also wonder about a warg who's not in their own body, getting made into a wight...