400 replies to this topic

[El-ahrairah]

The White Wolf, on May 2 2009, 22.52, said:

One thing it appears you haven't learned is the dangers of statistics of small groups.  I'll even one up you: my wife and I were both educated entirely by public schools, got similar marks on the ACT & SAT to that of your brother.  Moreover we both performed very well in college: my wife went on to take the MCAT where she placed in the 90th percentile and attended Washington University Medical School.  I took the Math GRE and received a mark in the 93rd percentile.  So clearly, by these two examples, there is no problem at all with public schools.  (/removes tongue from cheek)

Obviously my family can't be used to represent all homeschoolers - I never would claim that. My purpose was to respond to Watcher's rather odd post, concerning myself. In any event studies have shown (admittedly  a very nebulous term) that homeschoolers generally outperform their conventional counterparts academically. (National Spelling Bees & Geographic Bees, in especial).

And of course if it weren't for us you wouldn't have the light bulb...

Watcher, on May 2 2009, 23.38, said:

I'm glad your parents aren't one of them. But there is very little oversight in homeschooling by most states. Your antidotal story doesn't make it true for others.

Thankfully, the Garden State has no oversight whatsoever, so I managed to get a good education without interference from the Expert Educators.

Edited by El-ahrairah, 02 May 2009 - 11:05 PM.

[Ocean of Notions]

the Blauer Dragon, on May 1 2009, 15.34, said:

I am not in the 61%, but could be counted as solidly anti-Darwinism only because I believe that more research is needed into how species have evolved and what catalysts drive evolution. I do not think that it is always the fittest that survive.
I am not in the other 39% either. I do believe in the Bible. I believe in the story of Creation. I do not believe that it is a literal word-for-word account of how things happened though. It is certainly one way of looking at how things came to be though, and I have no problems with a school teaching evolution in the science classes and Creationism in theology or sociology type classes. Let the children know that both theories exist. Let them take in as much knowledge as humanly possible. Then let them decide for themselves what they believe.

That just tells me that you really don't know what evolution is about.  I'm not trying to put you on the spot; I'm just pointing it out.  I blame our educational system for being pretty lacking when it comes to this subject within biology.  I didn't realize just how little I actually understood what evolution was until I took some natural and social sciences classes in university. Therefore, I doubt many people who have this or that opinions actually have any notion what they're talking about.

The term "fitness" within an evolutionary contest only means having produced offspring.  Eg: an organism that has produced 4 offspring compared to an organism of the same species that's only produced 2 offspring is more fit.  The phrase "survival of the fittest" wasn't even coined by Darwin, but by the political theorist Herbert Spencer.  The more accurate term used by biologists/anthropologists/etc these days is "natural selection".

Wikipedia on natural selection said:

Natural selection is the process where heritable traits that make it more likely for an organism to survive long enough to reproduce become more common over successive generations of a population. It is a key mechanism of evolution.

Edited by Ocean of Notions, 03 May 2009 - 01:46 AM.

[Brude]

EHK for Darwin, on May 1 2009, 15.22, said:

I mean would we hesitate to lament and scorn those who had 'no opinion' on whether the earth was flat or not? Same scenario here. You either believe the sky is blue, since it is in fact fucking blue

Not trying to ruin your day or anything, EHK, but...

...and.  (I noticed the URL is at alaska.net - maybe they want the world to be flat because it makes Alaska bigger on the maps?  Just a thought.)

Also.

Edited by Brude, 03 May 2009 - 02:56 AM.

[EHK for Darwin]

Brude, on May 3 2009, 02.47, said:

Not trying to ruin your day or anything, EHK, but...

Did you just force me to watch 3 minutes of the View? What an utter abomination no matter the subject. Notice that the nutjob fanatical blonde chick didn't even open her mouth and the entire cast (Barbara Walters excepted) still sounded stupid. In fact I don't think there's any way to make incoherent ramblings about 'god this' and 'god that' sound smart no matter the context or the speakers. Even the ones who 'I think' were agreeing with me sounded dumb. You owe me 3 minutes and a shitload of brain cells!!!! :)

Quote

...and.  (I noticed the URL is at alaska.net - maybe they want the world to be flat because it makes Alaska bigger on the maps?  Just a thought.)

Also.

Flat earthers were always kinda cute. Like toothless retarded puppies.

Edited by EHK for Darwin, 03 May 2009 - 03:06 AM.

[The White Wolf]

El-ahrairah, on May 2 2009, 22.54, said:

Thankfully, the Garden State has no oversight whatsoever, so I managed to get a good education without interference from the Expert Educators.

And yet you gave data by tests created by Expert Educators.  Your brother chose to attend a college and be taught by Expert Educators.  You probably go to a doctor who was taught by Expert Educators.   You aren't consistent.

Edited by The White Wolf, 03 May 2009 - 07:48 AM.

[Watcher]

El-ahrairah, on May 2 2009, 20.54, said:

Obviously my family can't be used to represent all homeschoolers - I never would claim that. My purpose was to respond to Watcher's rather odd post, concerning myself. In any event studies have shown (admittedly  a very nebulous term) that homeschoolers generally outperform their conventional counterparts academically. (National Spelling Bees & Geographic Bees, in especial).

And of course if it weren't for us you wouldn't have the light bulb...


Thankfully, the Garden State has no oversight whatsoever, so I managed to get a good education without interference from the Expert Educators.

My odd statement was developed when I was tutoring math on the side and I worked with 4 homeschooled students who decided they needed a GED. None of them could do math past basic addition and subtraction because their parents version of homeschool was to put them to work. That is my real world experience with homeschooled children. I'm not disputing the fact that homeschooling does work for parents that are dedicated and take the time to understand the material to teach their children. I'm concerned with the fact there is no oversight and the kids parents can be teaching them anything they want, no matter how wrong, or not teach them at all, as I've encountered.  Any program with no oversight is going to be abused.

Studies comparing homeschoolers vs public schools children aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Ever public schooled child has to be tested. Only homeschoolers that are tested are the ones that volunteer for the test. You can't get accurate results if one group can selectively choose their data points and the other group can't.

[turinturambar]

Other-in-law, on May 3 2009, 14.23, said:

Don't those rely almost entirely on rote memorisation, as opposed to critical thinking or logical deduction?  Performance in those two categories sounds like a pretty dismal criterion for judging quality of education.

Not all people have to be good critical thinkers in order to be intelligent and contribute to society.  

There are many different types of thinkers in this world.  Also to assume that home school kids who display superior spelling and math skills somehow lag in critical thinking or because of lower critical thinking skills....are somehow inferior.  IMO this displays a lot of arrogance.

[Jaerv]

EHK for Darwin, on May 1 2009, 21.22, said:

For anyone who has ever doubted that Christianity is a plague, here's your evidence. Its now a pandemic and has stupified most of the population.

I mean would we hesitate to lament and scorn those who had 'no opinion' on whether the earth was flat or not?

I believe to remember from reading about one third of the Quran (couldn't stomach more) that this text very clearly implies that the earth is flat...

[EHK for Darwin]

turinturambar, on May 3 2009, 14.53, said:

Not all people have to be good critical thinkers in order to be intelligent and contribute to society.  

There are many different types of thinkers in this world.  Also to assume that home school kids who display superior spelling and math skills somehow lag in critical thinking or because of lower critical thinking skills....are somehow inferior.  IMO this displays a lot of arrogance.

Woah...I think OiL is simply saying that high level rote memorization isn't a good indicator of education quality, and really it isn't. I highly doubt he was saying that the kids who excel in it don't contribute to society or lack critical thinking skills. Simply that spelling B's and such aren't adequate measures of those things. AKA, its not that this information tells us the kids are dumb or uneducated, but that this information really tells us nothing either way.

Edited by EHK for Darwin, 03 May 2009 - 03:47 PM.

[turinturambar]

EHK for Darwin, on May 3 2009, 15.46, said:

Woah...I think OiL is simply saying that high level rote memorization isn't a good indicator of education quality, and really it isn't. I highly doubt he was saying that the kids who excel in it don't contribute to society or lack critical thinking skills. Simply that spelling B's and such aren't adequate measures of those things. AKA, its not that this information tells us the kids are dumb or uneducated, but that this information really tells us nothing either way.

Perhaps I read into it too much.  I do agree that Spelling B's aren't the best measures of those things, but the do point towards a good education imo.  The most ideal situation though is if you could implement the home-schooling quality of basic education with critical thinking skills.  Too much "learning" without a good deal of independent thinking can lead to a "robot".  On the other hand, placing too much emphasis on other such things can be a mistake as well.  Most truly intelligent people will eventually develop the critical thinking skills on their own, which is why a lot of people now believe that critical thinking practices aren't necessarily that important in school.  

However, all the critical thinking ability in the world is sometimes not enough for somebody to overcome generations of their religious dogma because of the very nature of "faith".

[drawkcabi]

1. Evolution belongs in science class, it is too important a part of science not to be taught starting in elementary school. Creationism has no business in sciecne class.
2. Religion/Theology is too important not to be taught in school and I mean public schools as well. IMHO it does not infringe on Separation of Church of State to acknowledge the impact of religion in our society. As integral a part of science evolution is, Religion is the same for Social Studies.

About the poll, I'm not as bothered by it as some. We've just ended a 30 year reign of a governing party that was brought into its modern configuration by having made a deal with Evangelical America. Now that party is collapsing and a big party of the reason is that deal has gone sour.

I think belief in evolution is on the rise and will continue to be for the forseeable future unless it is debunked by another purely scientific theory.

Also, it truly is tiring to keep blaming religion for all the problems in the world, regardless of what I said two paragraphs up yonder. There are people in every large organization that wants to control what everyone else believes, but on the whole I think we're still better off with religion than without it.

Many of the charitable work in the country is done by religious organizations.

Also, man of us believe in the power chi or good thoughts, or good vibes or whatever, prayer is along those very lines. If I break my arm, I'm going to go to the doctor and have it set, however if I am diagnosed with cancer, while I will go and get the chemo treatments and everything else, but maybe it's the dozens of people praying and at the same time generating electrical impulses in their brain that are focused on my well being somehow going out in my direction that is the tipping factor in whether or not my body decides to get better.

There is too much to know about how the universe works and we know so very little, to dismiss any idea. In the middle ages (and in Westeros) people used leeches in medical treatments, then that idea became barbaric, now medical science is back to using leeches again but are more knowlegable about how to use them to help.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

My reply to the entire thread: ::yawn::

[turinturambar]

Other-in-law, on May 3 2009, 17.53, said:

If the home schooled kids had superior math skills I'd be impressed.  Haven't seen the slightest evidence that they do, so far.

Homeschool students outperform their public school counterparts by a good 30 percentiles on the standardized mathematics tests.  They usually place around the 88th percentile or somewhere around that number.  They also score higher on ACT and SAT tests.  

However, they only outperform traditional 1st year college students slightly which basically shows that other kids catch up after a while.  

FWIW I'm not a fan of homeschooling.  I think a kid learns valuable stuff in school.  In my experiences, it's not uncommon for a homeschool kid to go absolutely apesh!t with sex, drugs, alcohol, etc once they're allowed to enter society.

[The Khaleesi]

Drawkcabi, on May 4 2009, 09.39, said:

Also, man of us believe in the power chi or good thoughts, or good vibes or whatever, prayer is along those very lines. If I break my arm, I'm going to go to the doctor and have it set, however if I am diagnosed with cancer, while I will go and get the chemo treatments and everything else, but maybe it's the dozens of people praying and at the same time generating electrical impulses in their brain that are focused on my well being somehow going out in my direction that is the tipping factor in whether or not my body decides to get better.

Anecdotal evidence: My partner was analysed with leukemia in his 20s. He had a very religious family, and churches full of people prayed for him regualrly. He still died.
My mother had melanoma, her husband was a vicar. Her church prayed for her every weekend. She still died.
Scientific evidence:
"Praying for sick strangers does not improve their prospects of recovering, according to a large, carefully designed study that casts doubt on the widely held belief that being prayed for can help a person heal."
Prayer's Power to Heal Strangers Is Examined
Cardiac Patients in New Study Fared No Better With Spiritual Intercession
http://www.washingto...5071401695.html

Personally, I think praying for people often makes the prayer feel betterm because they feel they can do something to help, however, it is very sad when people think that they or their loved ones are more likely to get better from an illness by the power of prayer. It just doesn't work.

[El-ahrairah]

The White Wolf, on May 3 2009, 08.47, said:

And yet you gave data by tests created by Expert Educators.  Your brother chose to attend a college and be taught by Expert Educators.  You probably go to a doctor who was taught by Expert Educators.   You aren't consistent.

My term "expert educators" described a lot of the K-12 rabble with their weird child-development theories, not college professors and the like who generally know what they're talking about.

Other-in-law, on May 3 2009, 15.23, said:

Don't those rely almost entirely on rote memorisation, as opposed to critical thinking or logical deduction?  Performance in those two categories sounds like a pretty dismal criterion for judging quality of education.

Memorization -yes, but when one considers the hundreds of thousands of English words and the equally vast number of places of the globe, some sifting is required. And also if the answer is not known, a overarching mastery of geographical understanding can help greatly in making a good guess.

I myself took part in a NGB in "8th grade" - regrettably gaining only 2nd place within the homeschool qualification group.

turinturambar, on May 3 2009, 20.47, said:

FWIW I'm not a fan of homeschooling.  I think a kid learns valuable stuff in school.  In my experiences, it's not uncommon for a homeschool kid to go absolutely apesh!t with sex, drugs, alcohol, etc once they're allowed to enter society.

I don't know... Maybe living in "society" with peers and friends who abuse such things is a bit worse than growing up without them.

[Shryke]

turinturambar, on May 3 2009, 20.47, said:

Homeschool students outperform their public school counterparts by a good 30 percentiles on the standardized mathematics tests.  They usually place around the 88th percentile or somewhere around that number.  They also score higher on ACT and SAT tests.  

However, they only outperform traditional 1st year college students slightly which basically shows that other kids catch up after a while.  

FWIW I'm not a fan of homeschooling.  I think a kid learns valuable stuff in school.  In my experiences, it's not uncommon for a homeschool kid to go absolutely apesh!t with sex, drugs, alcohol, etc once they're allowed to enter society.

Not surpsing considering the homeschooling movement of the last few decades is mostly fueled by Christians trying to insulate their kids.

[turinturambar]

El-ahrairah, on May 3 2009, 22.42, said:

I don't know... Maybe living in "society" with peers and friends who abuse such things is a bit worse than growing up without them.

Not in my experience anyways.  What I've observed is that often these kids don't experience such things and are sheltered from them, so once they get a taste of freedom and are finally allowed to make their own choices and/or mistakes....they often make the wrong ones.  A lot of kids try pot and sometimes other drugs, and for most of them that's the end of it....well....except for an occasional recreational smoking.  The home school kids I've met they try them all and they try them again and again and again.  It's as if they're trying to make up for lost time.

[Ocean of Notions]

I suppose I totally wasn't paying attention.  Apparently, the actual topic is homeschooling.  Well, my two cents: I'd never home school my kids.  People can argue the quality of academics, but they can't argue the fact that children must be immersed in society to be properly socialized.  School isn't always a very nice place, but it's a life lesson.  School isn't just about learning facts and numbers.  It's also about learning how to deal with other people.  You really can't learn that at home or even hanging out with the neighbours.  School forces you to socialize with all sorts of people.  You can't just remove yourself from that situation whenever you choose to.  You are forced to learn.