255 replies to this topic

[Completely Headless Ned]

I'm pretty sure the Grave Digger was Sandor, it just makes too much sense. I would like for him to return, he was probably my favorite Non pov character.

[Errant Bard]

Alais, on 20 May 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

I don't think GRRM would spend so much time developing a character, and Sandor is in my opinion one of the most multi dimensional characters in the series, just to kill him off at the end of the third book.

I would be wary about that. GRRM didn't actually spent much time developing Sandor, and when he did, that was part of him playing mentor to the kid heroes. He was a stepping stone, story-wise, and doesn't really have any critical role to play after he get his closure.

Being well characterized did not prevent Catelyn, Ned, Robb, Tywin, Jeor or Vyserys, among others, from exiting the stage forever.

[The Black Mamba of Dorne]

Errant Bard, on 20 May 2011 - 06:54 AM, said:

I would be wary about that. GRRM didn't actually spent much time developing Sandor, and when he did, that was part of him playing mentor to the kid heroes. He was a stepping stone, story-wise, and doesn't really have any critical role to play after he get his closure.

Being well characterized did not prevent Catelyn, Ned, Robb, Tywin, Jeor or Vyserys, among others, from exiting the stage forever.

Didn't GRRM mention that some characters have resolutions that are "permanent or temporary"?

Could that be a clue to Sandor's return?

[Snow White]

Alais, on 20 May 2011 - 12:34 AM, said:

The Elder Brother mentioned burying the Hound, but he did state that he piled stones over him to keep the carrion hunters away, so we can assume he didn't dig a very deep hole, if he dug one at all.  He probably wasn't carrying a spade.  Crazy theory of the day - Sandor wasn't actually dead, but could have been unconscious and appeared dead.  Whoever (Rorge?) stole the helm came upon the cairn soon after the Elder Brother left and unearthed the body to make sure there wasn't anything else worth stealing.  It might be possible that Sandor could still have been alive, still unconscious.  The grave robbers threw the body into the river (for whatever reason), and Sandor washed up at the Quiet Isle, much like the Elder Brother did when he "died" at the battle of the Trident.  

You don't have to go that far. A couple pages after the Elder Brother mentions burying the Hound (not Sandor, mind) he talks about his own experience where he 'died' in battle and was reborn. It seems likely he was taking the same poetic license in describing the Sandor. It was 'the Hound' (likely the armor and weapons) that were buried.

[Alais]

Quote

It seems likely he was taking the same poetic license in describing the Sandor. It was 'the Hound' (likely the armor and weapons) that were buried.

That was my first thought as well.  But because of this

I buried him myself.  I can tell you where his grave lies, if you wish.  I covered him with stones to keep the carrion eaters from digging up his flesh, and set his helm atop the cairn to mark his final resting place.


That seemed to imply that the Elder Brother actually buried a body, although he still could be speaking metaphorically.

[Queen Dorothea]

The grave Elder B dug was camouflage.
The significant bit is when he asked Brienne "do you understand?" after his sermon and she doesn't really get it.
He is almost telling her that he is the Novice.
Probably GRRM did not even mean to hide it from us, only from Brienne who btw has never met the Hound.

[kalex716]

Well if he lives out the rest of his life in peace as a humble gravedigger, or he comes back to finally get the kill on his brother i'd be happy either way.

I actually really liked his character a lot, and while he was brutally flawed, the way he and Arya related throughout most of their journey was extremely compelling, and he seemed finally, once and for all quite broke down when we last saw them together wounded and sick.

Dead or alive, i felt like Sandor moved on.

[Alais]

Sandor Clegane is alive and is a gravedigger on the Quiet Isle.  The Hound is dead.

It is known.

[littlespider]

The comment about burying his "flesh" to protect it from carrion eaters gives me a creepy feeling that Sandor will come back with a peg leg. That would suck!

(I am only half kidding, btw.)

But since it's apparent that he has regenerating capabilities and could regrow the stub of his ear to have it chopped off at the fight at the inn, perhaps he will regrow his leg.

Edited by littlespider, 19 August 2011 - 10:19 AM.

[Lord Xoon]

Tywin Lannister, on 04 May 2009 - 02:23 AM, said:

4. When Brienne asks the abbot if Sandor is dead, he curiously replies that "he is in peace"; obviously meaning to mislead Brienne into believing that Sandor is dead without lying outright.

But in that same conversation, the church dude also says they buried him so that the crows wouldn't eat his flesh or something like that.  That's a flat out lie if Sandor is still alive.

So the abbot isn't just being coy and playing with words if Sandor is alive.  He's a flat out liar, which I guess doesn't provide evidence one way or the other, except that people around here seem convinced that his wordplay is somehow important because he never comes out and says "Sandor Clegane's life functions have ceased and he is beyond physical resurrection by any source magical or otherwise and here is the body to prove it."

[noshowjones]

I think it is pretty obvious that GRRM wants everyone to think that Sandor is alive.  This is probably because the Hound is one of the best characters in the book ha ha.  

I think he is alive, but the better question is whether or not he will make an appearance in the last 2 books...or last 6 books.  I don't have much faith in authors sticking to their numbers, especially when a lot of cold, hard cash is involved.  Not that I blame them.

[Gloria]

There must be some kind of thing you have to do - swear a vow or make a promise or sign a document or something - to become a novice.  Most likely, you say your words or whatever to the Elder Brother.  If Sandor really is the Novice, then maybe he really did "bury" the Hound himself.

Obviously I'm in the really-don't-want-Sandor-to-be-dead camp though, so I could be grasping at straws here.

Silverx2, on 09 December 2010 - 12:13 AM, said:

the exact quote from the book

"there is one thing i do know, however. The man you hunt is dead"
"how did he die?"
"by the sword, as he had lived"
"you know this for a certainty?"
"I buried him myself."

seems to me like he is dead until such time as is proven otherwise other then "but there is a new novice and hes big!" i find it hard to believe that they wouldnt see this grave diggers face and notice the terrible burns. Even farmers at a small village knew who he was.

Edited by Gloria, 06 September 2011 - 01:32 PM.

[Gloria]

Jesus, if that's true, he won't have time to fight any of the Others, or Gregor for that matter

I'm kidding, of course.  Not trying to flame anybody, especially this quickly after delurking.

MightilyOats, on 09 December 2010 - 08:10 PM, said:

He's almost assuredly digging a grave for every single person he's killed.

[Black Amethyst]

emmank, on 07 June 2009 - 10:25 PM, said:

  Maybe his final scene is meant to be a nod of farewell in which we readers find out that Sandor is just another casualty of war. I mean, really, in what way could he make a comeback if he is crippled?

I can think of at least two other characters that made a come back from being crippled. Most notably Jaime and Bran......so, that's not really an issue I don't think. As long as Sandor can swing a sword, he's good to go.

[Starbird]

Lord Xoon, on 22 August 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

So the abbot isn't just being coy and playing with words if Sandor is alive.  He's a flat out liar

If by "liar" you mean "unreliable narrator." We've already got one of those on the loose so the EB could be another one . . .

[brashcandy]

Starbird, on 06 September 2011 - 07:26 PM, said:

If by "liar" you mean "unreliable narrator." We've already got one of those on the loose so the EB could be another one . . .

Hey Starbirdy

So many Sandor threads... too much time till TWOW comes out. GRRM could never have Sandor die off page. If the Elder Brother claims that he buried Sandor's flesh he probably means it in some biblical sense, like killing the flesh( cruelty, vice) to let the spirit (goodness, higher purpose) be born. Or something like that.

[Parwan]

To get to some interesting truths, I think we need to mix things up a bit, look at what happened from different angles, and put in some bits from non-fantasy genres:

"Lady Brienne is a warrior maid," confided Septon Meribald, "hunting for the Hound."
"Aye?" Narbert seemed taken aback. "To what end?"
Brienne touched Oathkeeper's hilt. "His," she said.

Now, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Lady Stark did not send Brienne out to kill bad guys. Jaime did not give Brienne Oathkeeper because he wanted to arrange a hit on the Hound. Unfortunately, the Maid of Tarth was thinking with her sword. Had she stated her purpose better, she might have received better information. When Elder Brother asks what she seeks at Saltpans, Brienne answers that she is looking for a highborn maid of three-and-ten. That's what she should have told Narbert. After all, at an earlier part of the story--back with Lord Tarly, I believe--Brienne merely said that Clegane might know something about Sansa's whereabouts. Unfortunately, at the Quiet Isle, she alarms the brothers and winds up getting the run around.

I would definitely say that EB lied to the warrior maid. Trying to parse words like Clegane, the man you hunt, the Hound...makes EB seem like Bill Clinton. The brother says, "The man you hunt is dead." Later, he says "I know a little of this man, Sandor Clegane." Now, "the man you hunt" is obviously not the same as "this man." Right, and I didn't have sex with that woman; she had sex with me.

Near the end of the conversation, Elder Brother says, "...give up this quest of yours. The Hound is dead, and in any case he never had your Sansa Stark." By now, though, EB should know that the quest is not about the death of one man. It's about the lives of two girls. Brienne's reaction to his words about Arya should have made that clear. Talking to Clegane (or the lame brother, or whatever you want to call him) could reveal important information. Septon Meribald was supposed to hear the brothers' confessions. If EB didn't want to let Brienne talk to Sandor, he could have given the septon some worthwhile questions to ask: What sort of horse was Arya riding? how was she dressed? About when would she have arrived at Saltpans? (Before the raid, certainly, and thus possibly at a time when there was a ship at the port) It wouldn't have taken Sherlock Holmes or someone from Law and Order to get info of use in the quest. Someone as skilled with words as the brother should then have been able to provide it to the Maid of Tarth without revealing the source.

EB and Brienne are both good people. Unfortunately, they just talked around each other in their conversation.

[littlespider]

Parwan, on 07 September 2011 - 08:52 PM, said:

To get to some interesting truths, I think we need to mix things up a bit, look at what happened from different angles, and put in some bits from non-fantasy genres:

"Lady Brienne is a warrior maid," confided Septon Meribald, "hunting for the Hound."
"Aye?" Narbert seemed taken aback. "To what end?"
Brienne touched Oathkeeper's hilt. "His," she said.

Now, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Lady Stark did not send Brienne out to kill bad guys. Jaime did not give Brienne Oathkeeper because he wanted to arrange a hit on the Hound. Unfortunately, the Maid of Tarth was thinking with her sword. Had she stated her purpose better, she might have received better information. When Elder Brother asks what she seeks at Saltpans, Brienne answers that she is looking for a highborn maid of three-and-ten. That's what she should have told Narbert. After all, at an earlier part of the story--back with Lord Tarly, I believe--Brienne merely said that Clegane might know something about Sansa's whereabouts. Unfortunately, at the Quiet Isle, she alarms the brothers and winds up getting the run around.

Very nice point here, Parwan. Never thought about it like that. Bummer she didn't go back to her usual "highborn maid of three and ten" routine, cause we might have gotten more answers.

brashcandy, on 06 September 2011 - 08:55 PM, said:

If the Elder Brother claims that he buried Sandor's flesh he probably means it in some biblical sense, like killing the flesh( cruelty, vice) to let the spirit (goodness, higher purpose) be born. Or something like that.

Well, there is the possibility that he lost the leg to infection and that's the "flesh" that he buried. if that's the case his fighting days are over.

But obviously the EB is lying to Brienne cause he doesn't want some blonde sword-wielding tart anywhere near his new hot novice. EB is quite possessive like that.

(kidding ppl; I love the EB and think he is the man. For the best answer to this question please see Parwan's post above.)

Edited by littlespider, 07 September 2011 - 09:20 PM.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

littlespider, on 07 September 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

Well, there is the possibility that he lost the leg to infection and that's the "flesh" that he buried. if that's the case his fighting days are over.

What? do you really think a small flesh wound like that would stop our Sandor? What about all the pirates with peg legs? And just to be a litlle bit serious: If the wound was very infected, the EB probably had to cut out the worst parts of the infected flesh, so he would not be lying when he claimed to have buried Sandors flesh. It would just have been a tiny piece and not a whole leg.

littlespider, on 07 September 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

But obviously the EB is lying to Brienne cause he doesn't want some blonde sword-wielding tart anywhere near his new hot novice. EB is quite possessive like that.

  
Nope, a hot blonde like "the Beauty" is not someone you want to have hanging around the warm blooded monks in your monastery. Small wonder she had to go to the womens huts on the other side of the island

[Rapsie]

There is some evidence he is still alive and the fact that EB initially says what do you want him for rather than he's dead, does seem to help the theory he is still alive. I'm beginning to hope that is how GRRM leaves Sandor's story as he is at peace.

Remembering that it is GRRM writing here,if he does return as a character it will be to die horribly, not even getting to fight Robert Strong and there is just no way he'll end up with Sansa as it is just too popular a theory.