255 replies to this topic

[Lummel]

houseHB, on 21 April 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

I thought Sandor was with Undead Cat's crew, didn't he show up at the inn and Gendry was all pissed about it in AFFC?

No.  Rorge is wearing the Hound helmet when he arrives at the inn.  Once he's killed Lem Lemoncloak takes it and wears it.

Sandor was left to die by Arya in ASOS but is widely believed to have been found by the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle and is now the big novice digging graves with a limp who likes dogs in AFFC.

[chris999]

Sandor is alive on the quiet isle.

I think that he is using this quit time to reflect on his life, and that he will repent his evil acts and devote himself to the Faith of the Seven and will also adopt chivalry and honor.

I think he may even get knighted, even though he used to be disgusted with the idea.

I think once he becomes a knight, he will try to stay true to the chivalry code, like Dunk did, instead of "just saying the words" like the rest of the knights in the kingdom do.

[Ice Turtle]

If Sandor starts to think that devoting your life to the Faith would make you a better person I would vomit. Sandor doesn't believe in gods, he believes in hypocrisy of all oh so honorable institutions. knights, KG, BwB ...

Edited by Ice Turtle, 21 April 2012 - 09:32 PM.

[Lummel]

But that was before he was rescued by a man of God who found meaning in life through healing

[chris999]

Lummel, on 21 April 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

But that was before he was rescued by a man of God who found meaning in life through healing

It does sound kind of corny, but I think that GRRM could make it work.

Turn him into a Dunk V2.0.

Then he could go fight for what he thinks is right, instead of just saying the words, and then forgeting about the responsibilities.

This also would set him up for the faith to choose him as their champion to face Robert Strong... his evil arch enemy if you think that RS is Gregor.

Edited by chris999, 21 April 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lummel, on 21 April 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

But that was before he was rescued by a man of God who found meaning in life through healing

You want him Lancelled with a hair shirt, admit it.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I do hope he has mellowed out a bit, but still remains enough Sandor to feel like him. No religious conversion please, that would be weird. He could benefit in many ways from his stay at the Quiet Isle without turning devout...

chris999, on 21 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Turn him into a Dunk V2.0.

Hasn't there been some serious speculation that the Cleganes descend from Dunk?

[Lummel]

chris999, on 21 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

...This also would set him up for the faith to choose him as their champion to face Robert Strong... his evil arch enemy if you think that RS is Gregor.

My problem with that theory is that the Elder Brother was particullarly appalled by the fact that Sandor wanted to kill his own brother that hate epitomised just how low Sandor had fallen.  It's hard to square that with the Elder Brother then sending Sandor off to kill his brother.  But we'll see.

Howlin, on 21 April 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Hasn't there been some serious speculation that the Cleganes descend from Dunk?

Haven't heard that before.

[Lyanna Stark]

Howlin, on 21 April 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

Hasn't there been some serious speculation that the Cleganes descend from Dunk?

No, Brienne though. Especially since the shield she has painted reminded her of one she's seen at her father's home, and I believe it is very similar to Dunk's.

EDIT: Although apparently according to GRRM, "some of Dunk's descendants are present in the series", so why not?

I think it has been speculated that the Cleganes are fairly heavy on First Men blood though, but I can't find a reference. It may just be because Sandor's colouring seems to be fairly "northern" and a lot like Eddard Stark's.

Edited by Lyanna Stark, 21 April 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[WinterfellRose]

Last time we've seen The Hound he was seriously injured, at the point of accepting the gift of mercy, quick death by Arya. She did not give it to him. Something must have happened afterwards, when EB found him, that made him want to stay alive. Do you think EB would not have killed him if Sandor asked, in the state he was left? So I guess in a sense maybe EB said something to him that made Sanor find a will to live. To stay alive just to become a devout monk - no that's not Sandor... I seriously hope he uses the time on QI to calm down, think about his life and heal his injuries and figuring out what to do next.... He must have some more purpose in the series, just please not as a devout member of the Faith. I would hate that.
And I don't think he will ever become a knight. He does not believe in vows and honorable talk and I doubt even his stay on QI would change that.

[csm]

Howlin, on 21 April 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

I do hope he has mellowed out a bit, but still remains enough Sandor to feel like him. No religious conversion please, that would be weird. He could benefit in many ways from his stay at the Quiet Isle without turning devout...


Hasn't there been some serious speculation that the Cleganes descend from Dunk?

IIRC it was Loras' Grandmother's personal guard called Left and Right, Hodor and Brienne.

[Magdelaine Snow]

I just finished re-reading ASoS and have concluded that Sandor is definitely my favorite character at this point. I am sooo happy to think that Sandor might be alive. I wouldn't mind a real religious conversion for him, not one like Uncle Eron's which is just weird.

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

csm, on 21 April 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

IIRC it was Loras' Grandmother's personal guard called Left and Right, Hodor and Brienne.

Brienne seems almost a given (shield + GRRM's statement, as noted above). Hodor is more or less based on height and that we know Dunk & Egg journeyed to Winterfell (plus tall guy kissing a girl in front of the Weirwood in ADWD). I buy both of these two, Hodor mostly 'cause I want it to be true.

Left & Right, though? Could as well be Sandor & Gregor..? Is it that the former are stupid, and Dunk is supposed to be stupid? He's not, he's just been told he is, and believes it.

Anyways, a quick forum search showed that "serious speculation" was an overstatement. The Clegane Bros come up in threads discussing Dunk's descendants, is all.

[The Farren]

Sandor will kill his brother who is being kept alive by dark magic.  He will somehow atone for what he has done and he will end up with Brieanne is think.  He is a changed man and most likely believes in the Gods so pissibly making him their main fighter since the faith has militirized

[Jolene Brown]

The Farren, on 29 May 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

Sandor will kill his brother who is being kept alive by dark magic.  He will somehow atone for what he has done and he will end up with Brieanne is think.  He is a changed man and most likely believes in the Gods so pissibly making him their main fighter since the faith has militirized

Brienne is another's, Sansor is going to have to find his own woman.

[Jordana LeFay]

I do not believe he is dead. There is too much evidence to suggest he is the gravedigger.

I don't think Sandor Clegane has finished his role in this game just yet...

[sirKarlofHouseBlackDog]

I think that he will be at peace, and fight no more. I see it as a goodbye.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

He probably is the gravedigger. But dont think he is dead..gravedigger or no. And maybe the Hound inside him will rise again after seeing Ungregor.

[Christy_McKenna]

Brienne Of Bombay, on 06 November 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

He probably is the gravedigger. But dont think he is dead..gravedigger or no. And maybe the Hound inside him will rise again after seeing Ungregor.

Ugh, it would be such a shame to rise again as the Hound after finding peace on the Quiet Isle. But that's something that has crossed my mind, would Sandor let the Hound get the best of him? I really hope not.

[Woman of War]

Whether Sandor is dead or alive depends only of Martin's intention with that character since he has carefully stored him for further use - or not - at the Quiet Isle, explicitely  giving us no clear hint about the literary future of this character.
So what could Sandor be used for?
The first thing, not as simple as it seems, is to declinate a development towards religious emotions along the Sandor character, a hugely challenging literary plan for an agnostic (or atheist) like the author. We have the faith militant, we have religious hypocrites of all sorts, we have pious jokes like Lancel or we have people to be deeply respected like the Elder Brother or Septon Meribald.
Being an agnostic myself I would love to read a personal development story like that written by a non religious author, so it could translate to my understanding, since all those evangelical  stories in whatever religion about "being reborn" etc. do not touch me at all. So I hope Martin could do something for my understanding about the nature of religious emotions (see the thread about religion in Westeros and if people believe there are gods, very interesting   http://asoiaf.wester...in-asoiaf-gods/ )

Second, the obvious, Sandor can be there to fight Gregor, a bit flat if this is all.

I normally hate the term redemption because it has the odious taste that only characters who are apppropriately redeemed can be allowed to enter the paradise of survival after the story while those who did not manage  a sufficient degree of redemption have to be condemned to death before the story ends as punishment for their sins. Otherwise the story would be morally imbalanced, you know the good ones go to heaven, the bad ones to hell.  This is not a children's cautionary tale here with its black and white katharsis.
But in Sandor's case, like in few other characters, that redemption topic is part of his character's literary development:  I believe here we will see his redemption in our, the readers, eyes and in his own - and he will die for it. I guess he will indeed be Sansa 's protector, he will die to save her. Some fans will cry, some will know this had to happen.
Actually I do not care if his desire to, let's name it, fuck Sansa is pedophile or simply rapey or excused by romantic feelings (how could any feminist accept an excuse like that??). This struggling with very evil tendencies is what makes his character interesting, as well as being a childkiller, softening those traits away by a whitewashing debate  (oh he is soooo conflicted....and sooo soft inside, he only needs the right woman to save him ...  fangirl dream stuff) does a bad service to that hugely interesting literary invention. And let's face it, he fortunately is nothing but fictional, in real life he'd be a contract killer or something like that and any relationship with a young naive girl would make her end in the morgue or at best in a shelter for battered women. In Westeros she'd tell the servants that she "fell down the stairs".
And this has nothing to do with the fact that I find murdering a child because you are ordered to do so, simply following commands like Eichmann, is about the most evil deed imaginable. We will see, and have seen, so many good guys and girls die who definitely "deserved to" survive and we will see characters survive the books maybe even unharmed, who some readers perceive as thoroughly evil. Sandor may be extremely interesting but as RL person he would be a nightmare.

I am very sure that  the story of Sandor and Sansa is not meant as the romantic niche in  seven grisly books. Interpreting every tiny hint like bible exegesis into deep everlasting love from Sansa's side tells far more about the erotic dreams of us fangirl posters - do we like the dark brooding brute or do we have other preferences in our lonely fancies? -  than about what GRRM might intend with the story. Sansa is, like in so many of her substories there as a catalyst for Sandor's development. The main character in their common story is Sandor, it is not about  a possible puberty infatuation of a little girl, it is about the development of a very dark character, becoming the hero of his own story.

I am quite sure that Martin will warm up the character Sandor.

Edited by Woman of War, 06 November 2012 - 05:08 AM.