Marriage and surnames

[Werthead]

Throughout the novels, Cersei is almost always called 'Cersei Lannister', even though she's married into House Baratheon. However, Cersei spends most of the books as a widow and strongly favours the Lannister cause, so she is free to use her Lannister name.

I think this is an old question and it's probably answered in the SSM somewhere, but I'm uncertain what the correct usage of surnames as given to wives. Catelyn is referred to as both 'Catelyn Stark' and 'Catelyn Tully' in the books suggesting that wives adopt their new house name, but can still be known by their original house name.

For the wiki it seems that the obvious thing to do is to have redirects, so 'Catelyn Tully' redirecting to 'Catelyn Stark' and 'Cersei Baratheon' (which I don't think she is ever called outright) to 'Cersei Lannister', favouring the most common usage.

This also solves a minor problem I had trying to find a good way of listing the first Daenerys, the sister of Daeron II who married Maron Martell and was the rumoured love of Daemon Blackfyre's life. 'Daenerys Targaryen' should obviously be Dany from the novels, and putting numbers in their names seems incorrect (as the first Dany did not rule). The solution was obvious in hindsight: simply call the first Daenerys 'Daenerys Martell' instead.

[Evrach]

This also solves a minor problem I had trying to find a good way of listing the first Daenerys, the sister of Daeron II who married Maron Martell

It will be funny when you'll make the Walder Freys :drunk:

More seriously, we faced the same problem on la Garde de Nuit and decided to keep the maiden name in all cases except when, in the books, the woman is preferentially called by her spouse name. They are just a few ; from memory : Lysa Arryn - Catelyn Stark & Olenna Tyrell... maybe some other-ones less important.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

I'd say parenthetically adding the distinguisher that the Freys themselves use would be the way to go, there: Walder Frey ('Red Walder'), etc.

And whichever way is used for married women, ruling ladies and heiresses seem to almost invariably retain their maiden names in the series; it's Falyse Stokeworth, not Falyse Byrch, for example. Using the maiden name alone avoids the issue, using the husband's name requires the exception.

[Lord Mord]

Whichever is done, it should definitely be uniform. None of this "one rule for (x) and another rule for (y)" nonsense. Also, cannot you make "redirect" links? So, for example, the article will be about Elia Martell, but if someone enters "Elia Targaryen," it will take you to Elia Martell. Or, you could do it in reverse. Enter "Catelyn Tully," and it takes you to "Catelyn Stark." Also, you'd have a link on each page for "other possible uses/meanings."

As for the Freys, that's pretty simple. Somebody enters "Walder Frey," and it takes you to a page that says, "Do you mean ... " and it lists "Black Walder, Big Walder, Little Walder," etc., with each name a link to the appropriate article.

[Evrach]

There is redirect links & disambiguation pages.

[Lord Mord]

Evrach,

There is redirect links & disambiguation pages.

Excellent. Yeah, I thought this was probably covered, and yet there were questions, so I thought I'd offer an answer.

[Evrach]

In fact the real question wasn't if we had to makereally redirect links, but what page should be the "real article" and what page should be the redirection page.

[Lord Mord]

Evrach,

In fact the real question wasn't if we had to makereally redirect links, but what page should be the "real article" and what page should be the redirection page.

Ah.

Then I should have said the maiden name would be preferable. It's a matter of tracking the character -- whoever she marries, and in theory she could be married several times in her lifetime, she should always be traceable by the same pattern. Instead of having to guess which husband, or whichever other connection to go by, the system should be organized to recognize most easily the one pattern that will never change: lineage (real or apparent).

[Guest Other-in-law]

It's a matter of tracking the character -- whoever she marries, and in theory she could be married several times in her lifetime, she should always be traceable by the same pattern. Instead of having to guess which husband, or whichever other connection to go by, the system should be organized to recognize most easily the one pattern that will never change: lineage (real or apparent).

Incidentally, that reminds of another and particularly excellent example of ruling ladies not changing their names after marrying: Rohanne Webber. She's not called Lady Staunton or Lady Uffering, nor by the names of her first two husbands either. Her fifth husband was from the line that originally owned her castle of Coldmoat, so I have to wonder what name their sons, if any were born, would have had or what arms they would have born. After her fifth marriage both of their banners hung over the battlements, so it's sounds like there was some feeling of equality there. Maybe quartered arms and a hyphenated name? :P

Another example of a noble lady married multiple times is Elaena Targaryen, youngest of the Maidenvault prisoners, who had three husbands over the course of her life. Since we don't even know any of their names, she couldn't even be listed under her husbands' names anyway.

[Scafloc]

Follow the books I would say. The reader of the wiki will normally seek the person under the name she is given in the books. There was a discussion about Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel; which name would the reader use when looking for information?

In the books, most of the times the woman keep their own names but there are exceptions:

* Lysa is always Lysa Arryn (except for a few references to her life before she married)

* Lady Hornwood (former Manderly)

[Lord Mord]

Scafloc,

Follow the books I would say. The reader of the wiki will normally seek the person under the name she is given in the books. There was a discussion about Aegor Rivers aka Bittersteel; which name would the reader use when looking for information?

Okay, see what's interesting about this to me is that with redirection, it doesn't really make any difference. Type in "Bittersteel," and it comes to the correct page. There may be many Riverses, but there is only one Aegor Rivers at this or (probably) any time in the series, so type it in, and you'll come up to the correct page. I mean, what's the difference, if the page is called "Bittersteel" or "Aegor Rivers"?

If there is an answer to this question, then that's cool and I will have to change my thinking on this.

In the absence of a reason, basically we have to invent a reason, an imaginary quality of one system versus the other that is as near to reality, or perceived reality, as possible. That way, it follows a kind of logic -- instead of being entirely, completely arbitrary, it's just mostly, pretty much arbitrary. As such, the closest thing I can think of to a real logic, is to imagine that the distance from the "real" article has consequences, like it takes more time to get there from an entry that has to be redirected. In that way, it's like if you put in the entry that has to be redirected, it's sort of like a punishment for not knowing the "real" entry title.

As such, I think the person should be rewarded, or spared that punishment, who knows the real name. It takes more time and attention to detail to know Aegor Rivers, and rather less to know the word Bittersteel. If you enter Bittersteel, it will reroute you to Aegor Rivers.

[Scafloc]

Scafloc,

Okay, see what's interesting about this to me is that with redirection, it doesn't really make any difference. Type in "Bittersteel," and it comes to the correct page. There may be many Riverses, but there is only one Aegor Rivers at this or (probably) any time in the series, so type it in, and you'll come up to the correct page. I mean, what's the difference, if the page is called "Bittersteel" or "Aegor Rivers"?

If there is an answer to this question, then that's cool and I will have to change my thinking on this.

It works like that. Cersei Baratheon redirects to Cersei Lannister and Bittersteel to Aegor Rivers. There was some discussion which page should be the "normal" page and which the redirect. The only thing I can think about when that matters is when there is a link on the "normal" page to the redirect (for instance if a family tree is used). Then the link is active and so suggests another, different page.

Of course this is only a minor point but nevertheless a link on the normal page should be to that page and not to the redirect.

[Lord Mord]

Scafloc,

It works like that. Cersei Baratheon redirects to Cersei Lannister and Bittersteel to Aegor Rivers. There was some discussion which page should be the "normal" page and which the redirect. The only thing I can think about when that matters is when there is a link on the "normal" page to the redirect (for instance if a family tree is used). Then the link is active and so suggests another, different page.

Of course this is only a minor point but nevertheless a link on the normal page should be to that page and not to the redirect.

I understand the discussion is about which should be the normal and which the redirect pages. What I'm doing is to actually posit a suggestion for the system of rules we should employ.

To that end, I rather think that the redirect page could (should) be imagined as like taking the long way to get to a place, while knowing the "real" name already is like taking a shortcut. As such, the rule should be that the normal page should be defined by the most basic and also most precise name. As such, using, say, "Ned," as the name of the page for our Ned who lost his head, would be inappropriate, because conceivably there is or could soon be another Ned. By contrast, I'm pretty sure there will only ever be one Catelyn Tully.

I guess what I mean is that I think the normal pages should not be titled by nicknames, but rather in an IMDB fashion. If you have more than one, say, Jon Rivers, then you make the most prominent, or else the eldest, Jon Rivers (I), and the next most prominent or next eldest, Jon Rivers (II). Nicknames would only be appropriate if it's the only name you have. This way, as I say, whoever knows the "true" name gets to the page the quickest. I paid enough attention, say, to know that the Bastard of Bolton is actually Ramsay Snow, so when I enter that name I get to his specific entry (in theory) just very slightly faster than someone entering his other name. Ditto Aegor Rivers/Bittersteel.