Syrio Forel =/= Jaquen

[WinterRyan]

This might not be the best example, since the idiotic popularity of Boba Fett has caused him to become space jesus in virtually every piece of Star Wars work since the original trilogy, up to and including the prequels.

and the same is happening here...

With Fett they took a very minor character and drove him to great glory though undying love (and unrelenting fan based stories/speculation)

I would bet my last dollar GRRM is a much better writer then Lucas and will not be easily swayed by crazed fans...

[Serc]

*ressurects dead thread out of boredom*

He is dead...please for goodness sake go back and read the chapter and then for final measure read GRRM reaction to the questions about him

I read the chapter. I see a matrix like guy versus a knight of no special talent, and I see GRRM's reactions are ambiguous.

who cares who told Ned about him- think about it the King's hand goes looking for a suitable instructor for his daughter- everyone would throw in their 2 cents to help him...he finds one hires him and end of story.

It means plenty because it could be someone manipulating him from the shadows, meaning someone could be manipulating Arya with this whole Syrio water dancing thing.

It is such a huge reach to want him to be the massive back story of deception put into place to mold the storyline

I don't care either way. Frankly, this is just like all the R+L=J theories... yet for some reason everybody seems to enjoy that. R+l=J has no more of an impact on the story then does this one. That is to say, perhas a fair bit, but nothing spectacular. Jon's heritage doesn't matter since he swore oaths. So untilpeople shut up about R+L=J, I wont on this.

Bit role player that helps Arrya down the path of quick sword use (since she obviously cannot master overpowering her opponents)- he teaches her then when his role is over he dies valiantly defending her escape

Interesting how we never see him die, aint it? You know.. like Gregor, Arya, Brienne to name a few. We assume it, then oh wait.. they aren't dead?

tada end of his role

And yet he has so much more he could be, especially if he helped Arya with her FM battle.

[TrueMetis]

Ya whatever my ressurections were way more impressive.

As for Syrio if there is no body and in some cases were there is then you can't say someone is dead.

[Restless]

anyone who believes that man with a short thin wooden stick can survive duel with average level knight in armour with steel sword needs an alienist. :P

[Wolves in the Throne Room]

i think what it comes down to is "average level knight versus a wooden sword" is a slight to the idea that the man holding the wooden sword was the first sword of Braavos at some point in his life. Semly was still one of the top knights in his 60s so we know age doesn't dwindle skill too badly in the GRRMverse.

So i want Syrio Forel to be alive. Is that such a bad thing? I don't even want him to be a FM -- i just don't want him dead by Trant's hand. He was entertaining and his lessons kept Ayria alive in "Clash"

it would take a cold heart to tell me she isn't a fun character, and he was a mentor. until the series is over and he never resurfaces i fail to see the harm in letting a few of us keep him alive.

[Restless]

fast forward to next time we see Trant.

Do we see him with any major injure?

besides, there were other soldiers too... face it, ASOIAF was not supposed to be a script to Hollywood movie, until GRRM decided money buys it all.

[Errant Bard]

i think what it comes down to is "average level knight versus a wooden sword" is a slight to the idea that the man holding the wooden sword was the first sword of Braavos at some point in his life. Semly was still one of the top knights in his 60s so we know age doesn't dwindle skill too badly in the GRRMverse.

Some points:

1. It's armed and armoured knight versus unarmoured ex good fencer with a half stick. You cannot reduce it more, I mean, does "steel sword versus retired top fencer" make sense?
   
2. Age has been one of the arguments used to present Trant as average. You refute age as mattering any, you weaken the case for Trant to actually be average.
   
3. Kingsguard is the 1:1 equivalent for First sword of Braavos on the westeros continent.
   
4. We don't have to judge Syrio's dwindle in skill, we have a first hand demonstration of his current one, and we have absolutely no need of having a reference about what he would have been able to do against an armoured knight back when he was not old and retired, even if we could (there seems to be this mystique about the "First Sword of Braavos" title that makes people present it as if the holder was Neo/Superman). Of course, on the other hand, we do have a reference about what an average armoured old knight can do against multiple and armed elite lightning fast unarmoured guys, with Jorah... He wins.
   

So i want Syrio Forel to be alive. Is that such a bad thing?

But this isn't about what you want, it's about what is in the text and how it can be interpreted. Not that I don't respect your feelings, it's just that we can't argue faith. I mean, what can we say, you want something, cool, go on wanting it.

i just don't want him dead by Trant's hand. He was entertaining and his lessons kept Ayria alive in "Clash"

So going out in a blaze of glory is a godsend. He is a fictional character, (almost) on-screen glorious deaths are the very best way for a character to get closure. Think back on everything you read, do you remember more the minor characters that lived or those who were awesome and did some heroic sacrifices? Would you have liked it, in hindsight, if Obi-wan had fled or otherwise survived, and reappeared for some small part, to be overshadowed by the heroes or had not come back at all?

[Serc]

Some points:

1. Kingsguard is the 1:1 equivalent for First sword of Braavos on the westeros continent.
   
2. We don't have to judge Syrio's dwindle in skill, we have a first hand demonstration of his current one, and we have absolutely no need of having a reference about what he would have been able to do against an armoured knight back when he was not old and retired, even if we could (there seems to be this mystique about the "First Sword of Braavos" title that makes people present it as if the holder was Neo/Superman). Of course, on the other hand, we do have a reference about what an average armoured old knight can do against multiple and armed elite lightning fast unarmoured guys, with Jorah... He wins.
   

Just a little bit of a point to make about that, it was mentioned in the text that the last good Kingsguard was Selmy, and the rest were all politically motivated or something close to that.

And when did the Jorah scene happen? Refresh my memory with a quote from the text if you could. I highly doubt that those "elite" people were as good as Syrio, a man who can kill 5 people in 8 seconds. We also cannot pinpoint Trant or Jorah's skill from what I've seen - do you have evidence otherwise? It is possible that Jorah was simply very good, above average.

[Morekyyn]

Dany chapter GOT p. 713 US paperback. Jorah kills Qotho while MMD "tries" to heal Drogo. In the passage Qotho seem to be a very competent fighter.

I don't think that Meryn Trant is the Sword of the Morning reborn, but neither do I believe that he is as lousy as ser Creighton Longbough.

If Syrio had the intention to survive he would have tried to flee, I believe, but he himself closed that possibility with "the first sword of etc."

[Errant Bard]

Just a little bit of a point to make about that, it was mentioned in the text that the last good Kingsguard was Selmy, and the rest were all politically motivated or something close to that.

Depends on the point of view, I think Jaime has a higher opinion of himself and says he is the last good one. I don't remember where the text goes beyond boastings of Selmy and Jaime, though.

Trant's nomination had a political motivation behind it, it's been confirmed somewhere iirc, but then again, Jaime's nomination was political too. Skill at arms and political importance are not antithetical, especially when characters should actually evolve during their life, and even someone inept would become good by training everyday with the likes of Selmy. I don't see the relevance of the argument, in the end, it doesn't allow us to conclude anything about the skill of the character in one way or another, it just means that skill, whatever it was then, wasn't the main criterion for the choice.

[Serc]

I believe Jaime says he is the last good one, but Selmy did not say it about himself. Someone in the Winterfell party mentioned I believe. I am more inclined to believe Selmy was the last one chosen because he was "good" or whatever, moreso than Jaime.

[Jon Targaryen]

I am more inclined to believe Selmy was the last one chosen because he was "good" or whatever, moreso than Jaime.

Arthur Dayne may have been younger than Selmy as Dayne was Rheagar's closest friend. May not have been though.

[Errant Bard]

I am more inclined to believe Selmy was the last one chosen because he was "good" or whatever, moreso than Jaime.

I don't think it's so clear cut. Skill plays a role, but politics do not vanish in the face of skill. Because Selmy was good doesn't mean it was the main or only reason he was accepted, once again Jaime was good but that wasn't the main reason he got in, and it's a strange land were only Selmy would be the only good knight living susceptible to be recruited.

If we look back at the Kingsguard through the ages, while some are legends, it's clear skill is only a part of what gets them in. Arthur Dayne was best buddy with Rhaegar and from a major dornish house. Dunk was friend with Aegon 5. Aemon was a Targaryen. etc.

Dunk is an interesting example in that he does suck when recruited, and only gets in because he has the favour of the king, yet it would seem he manages to become good enough, and I'm not certain we would have that many posters saying Syrio could wrestle him or otherwise beat him barehanded... despite being objectively worse at fighting than Trant.

[WinterRyan]

I don't think it's so clear cut. Skill plays a role, but politics do not vanish in the face of skill. Because Selmy was good doesn't mean it was the main or only reason he was accepted, once again Jaime was good but that wasn't the main reason he got in, and it's a strange land were only Selmy would be the only good knight living susceptible to be recruited.

If we look back at the Kingsguard through the ages, while some are legends, it's clear skill is only a part of what gets them in. Arthur Dayne was best buddy with Rhaegar and from a major dornish house. Dunk was friend with Aegon 5. Aemon was a Targaryen. etc.

Dunk is an interesting example in that he does suck when recruited, and only gets in because he has the favour of the king, yet it would seem he manages to become good enough, and I'm not certain we would have that many posters saying Syrio could wrestle him or otherwise beat him barehanded... despite being objectively worse at fighting than Trant.

I just have to agree with you Errant, it is such a great off scene death, and so very valiant. I think in terms of characters GRRM killed off his is the best death (most heroic) so far.

I also see why people want him to continue on, but that is true with all hero's

I'll have to try and work this into my Arya controls the world post :P

[dragomort]

Just to add to the whole KG = politically motivated, not skill:

Syrio got his position by recognizing a cat.

Seriously. I love the character and all, but the sword can cut both ways on that analysis at best.

[Morekyyn]

Another "hint" (which nowadays can be ANYTHING!!!) that ser Arthur Dayne is younger than Selmy is that he is the brother of Lady Ashara who in turn was seen as a realistic future wife to Lord Eddard who was, between thumb and forefinger, at least 20 years younger than ser Barristan. And Ashara is the aunt (thus Arthur is the uncle, probably) to Edric Dayne who is the oldest (trueborn, surviving) child to the former Lord Dayne (or lady)who in turn should have been older than both Arthur and Ashara. And Edric is only 12(?).

But that a Martell, a Lannister, a Hightower and a Dayne all should be KGs at the same time tells me that politics was/might have been a factor even during the good old Targaryen reign. On the other hand it would be interesting knowing what sort of politics was made with making Moore, Blount and Trant Kingsguards.

... I believe

And I just realized that this post of mine has very little to do with whether Syrio is Jaqcen or not.

[Aplomb]

Dunk is an interesting example in that he does suck when recruited, and only gets in because he has the favour of the king, yet it would seem he manages to become good enough, and I'm not certain we would have that many posters saying Syrio could wrestle him or otherwise beat him barehanded... despite being objectively worse at fighting than Trant.

I'm not sure where you get that. We don't know the whole Dunk and Egg tale yet. By the time he gets recruited to the White Cloaks, Dunk maybe the universally recognized total badass perfect knight of Westeros due to as yet unwritten Dunk and Egg tales. Sure, he's got a leg up because of his friendship with Egg, but I don't think GRRM is writing a series of stories about a nonentity knight who achieved the same level of fame and glory as Trant before he got a White Cloak and only later lived up to the honor.

[Lord O' Bones]

We also cannot pinpoint Trant or Jorah's skill from what I've seen - do you have evidence otherwise? It is possible that Jorah was simply very good, above average.

The last thing I want to do is support your ridiculous cause, believe me. But in fairness, I believe we did get evidence that Mormont was very good at fighting, as if I recall correctly, he spent a great deal of time fighting in (and winning?) tournements to support his high-maintenance wifey.

[TrueMetis]

The last thing I want to do is support your ridiculous cause, believe me. But in fairness, I believe we did get evidence that Mormont was very good at fighting, as if I recall correctly, he spent a great deal of time fighting in (and winning?) tournements to support his high-maintenance wifey.

IIRC the only tournement he won was the one he asked for his future wives favour all the other ones he did average at at best.