Syrio Forel =/= Jaquen

[Shemy]

Ok but what's that to do with the price of fish

It's to do with Gandalf compared to Uncat.

Basically Cat does come back like Gandalf, but Gandalf in LotR is still his usual good self just lost his personality. Compare it to Uncat.

Thats what its got to do with " the price of fish "

Being dead like Cat was or Theon, Bran & Rickon appeared to be ? There is also a big difference between being left for dead and being left alive as Syrio was.

All characters who are supposed to be dead, been dead and came back alive or only appeared in a death situation have been explained.

Syrio hasn't.

Nor will he ever.

Arya has been constantly referring to Syrio since AGOT

Only his lessons. Which is the way you remember someone who's no longer here.

You've only presented a case for making mine stronger :).

[Serc]

After reading all the rebbutals, I'm officially confused... could be either one I suppose. However, on my first read through, when I saw Jaqen, I'm like.. that is totally Syrio! Especially considering how Jaqen then introduced himself as being from the Free City of Lilath or whatever, when his companions were going to say something different, or calling him Lilath. What reason would he have to not give out the name Biter and them were going to use?

[pfitz]

You've only presented a case for making mine stronger :).

Glad to help :D

I do think it's possible that Arya's references are there to ensure Syrio's return doesn't come totally out of the blue. (well out of the blue to normal people not those of us who attempt to tease out the significance of every sentence ;) )

It's to do with Gandalf compared to Uncat.

Basically Cat does come back like Gandalf, but Gandalf in LotR is still his usual good self just lost his personality. Compare it to Uncat.

Thats what its got to do with " the price of fish "

I see what you're saying but I feel the significant thing is G.R.R. bringing back Cat which shows whatever his feelings about Gandalf that he is prepared to bring back dead characters. The fact Cat returns with a new world view is not important. In fact has she even changed that much. Ok yes she has but we have seen that she could be cold and hard so when her gentler emotions are lost and her love replaced with a lust for revenge the hardness comes to the fore.

However if, as you argue, Cat's return cannot be compared to Gandalf's then can the possible return of a minor character like Syrio in which case

You've only presented a case for making mine stronger

:rofl:

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

have you ever broken/slashed a piece of wood? It gets REALLY sharp, and if its already cut like a sword, it wouldn't be hard to poke someone in the visor with the jagged end. Granted this would take immense skill but we all know Syrio had that.

Syrio could have done that, if that was how the story was written. But that's not how the story was written. The very next time Meryn trant appeared, Sansa very specifically commented on the appearance of his eyes. Puffy, baggs under them. One eye gouged out by a jagged stick? Nope. Ugly scar from a deep gash next to the eye? Nope. Therefore it didn't happen. If the puffiness is noteworthy, a ghastly scar or missing eye would be even more noteworthy. So it did't happen.

[Ser Greguh]

Syrio could have done that, if that was how the story was written. But that's not how the story was written. The very next time Meryn trant appeared, Sansa very specifically commented on the appearance of his eyes. Puffy, baggs under them. One eye gouged out by a jagged stick? Nope. Ugly scar from a deep gash next to the eye? Nope. Therefore it didn't happen. If the puffiness is noteworthy, a ghastly scar or missing eye would be even more noteworthy. So it did't happen.

This, this, and this some more. This is one of the reasons I maintain my position that the "Syrio is Alive!" crowd is clutching at straws. From the moment Syrio engages Meryn Trant, there are a very finite number of possibilities:

1) Syrio miraculously defeats Meryn Trant. We know this does not happen because Trant shows up later, quite uninjured.

2) Syrio runs. Generally considered not to be an option because that's not what the First Sword of Braavos does.

3) Trant subdues Syrio and arrests him, with him eventually winding up in the Black Cells to reappear as Jaqen H'ghar. This is the most plausible sequence of events that could lead to Syrio=Jaqen, but given that a) that wasn't what the Lannisters were doing -- they were butchering everyone associated with the Starks, including helpless women such as Septa Mordane, so they would never leave someone as dangerous as Syrio unkilled, and b) Trant was in a bit of a time crunch, as he was really after Arya, and his M.O. would have been to chase her down after Syrio was out of the way, to which time-consuming activities such as arresting someone and throwing them in the black cells is not conducive.

4) Trant kills Syrio. By far the most likely scenario given the state of the fight as Arya runs, and the only story consistent with the information we acquire after the fact.

Syrio is dead.

[Serc]

We can't be sure he is dead, and a FM would have ran, so your #2 is untrue.. therefore, your bold declaration is that he is dead is sort of wrong :P. Not that I'm disagreeing, but I think it is is impossible to be sure, especially since GRRM is not saying a blunt "Yes, he's dead, stop asking, go away".

Of course, if he is a FM, then Syrio is in fact dead, like Jaqen, but that is wordplay, and I dont think you intended it that way.

[Shemy]

Glad to help :D

I do think it's possible that Arya's references are there to ensure Syrio's return doesn't come totally out of the blue. (well out of the blue to normal people not those of us who attempt to tease out the significance of every sentence ;) )

That may be but it makes no sense. Like in all theories, such as R+L=J, there are clues in the book to back this up, things that you can catch on to. There is nothing that you can get in the book aside from the quotes that Arya was doing before Syrio was dead anyway.

I see what you're saying but I feel the significant thing is G.R.R. bringing back Cat which shows whatever his feelings about Gandalf that he is prepared to bring back dead characters. The fact Cat returns with a new world view is not important. In fact has she even changed that much. Ok yes she has but we have seen that she could be cold and hard so when her gentler emotions are lost and her love replaced with a lust for revenge the hardness comes to the fore.

It's a bit different. Gandalf was an essential part to LotR, he was killed off, then brought back and resumed his part, only with a lost identity.

I think when Martin speaks about killing a character off he meant a very important character and their role in the book, not the actual character, if you catch my meaning here. Which is why bringing Gandalf back (imo) did seem kind of weak. Yes we lost his personality but he fulfilled the exact same role as he did beforehand and as far as thats concerned, it didn't matter if he died or not. Personally I'd prefer it if Cat stayed dead myself, I don't believe Ungregor should be allowed either if Ungregor is true. Beric I've never truly been bothered with.

But maybe later on there will be reasons explained for this that we don't have the information at hand to see. I certainly hope so because it does seem an odd thing to do so far.

Anyway back on topic.

Cat no longer matters, and is consumed by vengeance. That's all she cares about.

I understand what you're saying here, and I'm not explaining myself properly. Now if someone like Eddard Stark or Robb came back alive and were everything they were before, I would agree with you, but it's not the same when it's someone like Cat. Who won't even reveal her true identity to anyone but those she's about to kill.

However if, as you argue, Cat's return cannot be compared to Gandalf's then can the possible return of a minor character like Syrio in which case

:rofl:

Like I said in my posts, I don't rule out that Syrio may not be dead.

But I need some clues/hints or passages from the books to back this statement up.

Which, there is none.

Therefore, Syrio by default should be considered dead ;p

[mormont]

I do think it's possible that Arya's references are there to ensure Syrio's return doesn't come totally out of the blue.

If that was so, the author would honestly have failed miserably. Even people who've read the books several times and argued this topic over and over again don't see them as an indication that Syrio might be alive. A casual reader almost certainly wouldn't.

I see what you're saying but I feel the significant thing is G.R.R. bringing back Cat which shows whatever his feelings about Gandalf that he is prepared to bring back dead characters.

The key word here is 'dead'. ;) UnCat, like UnBeric and UnGregor, is still dead, or at least cannot be said to be truly alive. Frankly, if you actually liked Cat (as I did) you almost certainly wish she hadn't come back, because like the other Un-characters, her post-death existence seems pretty horrible all round. For her and for everyone else. It's pretty hard to make a comparison with something like Gandalf's return. The hobbits were overjoyed to see resurrected-Gandalf. Can you imagine what Arya or Sansa or Bran would make of UnCat?

As for the point about GRRM's comments, it seems to be GRRM's usual rule not to make definitive statements about possible or actual story points and theories. I can only think of a few cases where he has, mostly when he's been caught off-guard. Read the SSM: his comments about Syrio are about as strong as any he has made on any theory. Looked at in context, the issue is not how much but how little room they leave compared to his normal habit.

[Aplomb]

From the moment Syrio engages Meryn Trant, there are a very finite number of possibilities:

2) Syrio runs. Generally considered not to be an option because that's not what the First Sword of Braavos does.

This is wholly illogical, and emblematic of the reasons I think some people wholly reject Syrio = Jaqen: they cannot process the fact that if the theory is true there is no Syrio and there is no Jaqen.

That Syrio would never run because he told Arya he was the First Sword and the First Sword never runs cannot be a legitimate objection to the theory, because the theory posits that this is not actually Syrio the First Sword. The FM pretending to be Syrio can run all he wants. Running away and changing identities before getting caught is probably one of their basic strategies, no?

[Shemy]

This is wholly illogical, and emblematic of the reasons I think some people wholly reject Syrio = Jaqen: they cannot process the fact that if the theory is true there is no Syrio and there is no Jaqen.

Alright then. Now wheres quotes hints/clues and passages to make Syrio = Jaqen?

I don't want speculation, I want direct quotes that can lead a reader to that conclusion without having to make stuff up ;p.

[Serc]

Lets see.. the clues and hints? We know nothing of where Syrio was beforehand, we know nothing of Jaqen. They both have a Free City accent, and when Biter was going to call Jaqen a different name he gave a different one instead.. there is the facts: why would the First Sword of Bravos be in Westeros? There are a bunch of illogicalities and the thing is quite simply: we dont know! We know nothing of where Jaqen came from, or Syrio, thus, we can speculate they may be the same person.

If you want direct quotes and truth.. sorry, I doubt you will find it. If you demand it, what are you doing dicussing theories? The only quote I can think of is the Biter part where he is going to call Jaqen a different name.

[Shemy]

We know nothing of where Syrio was beforehand, we know nothing of Jaqen.

There are plenty of characters who we know nothing of beforehand. Like I said, this is speculation on your part.

They both have a Free City accent,

A FM can change accent as they can change face, so that is not a proper connection.

and when Biter was going to call Jaqen a different name he gave a different one instead..

Where was this? Can you link the quote please as I'm rather curious about this one.

there is the facts: why would the First Sword of Bravos be in Westeros?

He's retired and Ned needed someone to teach Arya how to fight.

I think the question more to the point is why would a FM be in Kings Landing at that point just mulling around pretenting to be a first sword and be teaching a girl how to fight?

Not to mention the FM must me a Master Water Dancer himself. He didn't just play the part of a water dancer, he was a master water dancer, as shown by taking 5 guards out by himself, which even a legendary Kingsguard would struggle to do. Why would a faceless man be a master water dancer?

There are a bunch of illogicalities and the thing is quite simply: we dont know! We know nothing of where Jaqen came from, or Syrio, thus, we can speculate they may be the same person.

Everything Martin has revealed or yet to reveal has clues and hints in the book, yet there is None that draws Syrio to being Jaqen.

The whole basis of your debate is that we don't know anything about Syrio or Jaqen, both speak with a Braavosi accent and both know Arya and are friendly to her. But there must be some sort of quote to link both together, else it's just speculation, and that's what I've repeated myself about50 times saying ;p.

For example, with the R+L=J theory, Ned mentions he has been living a lie for 14 years. Jon is 14 years of age. THAT, is a subtle hint to which you can pinpoint it to that theory. There is nothing of the sort for Syrio being Jaqen.

If you want direct quotes and truth.. sorry, I doubt you will find it. If you demand it, what are you doing dicussing theories? The only quote I can think of is the Biter part where he is going to call Jaqen a different name.

Sandor Clegane being alive is a theory. It has passages in the book which makes many fans consider this.

R+L=J is a theory. There are direct quotes and things said in the book which makes many fans consider this theory.

It's not that I want to make people wrong. I just want to see where people can draw this conclusion from what was said in the book, as then I can maybe go reread myself.

[Errant Bard]

we dont know! We know nothing of where Jaqen came from, or Syrio, thus, we can speculate they may be the same person.

We know about as much than for any other support character. You could argue without changing one word that Syrio is Yoren, or Melisandre, or about anyone Syrio was never seen together with... and he's only been seen with Arya and Trant.

They both have a Free City accent

A bunch of people have a Free cities accent, usually, that's because they come from the free cities.

when Biter was going to call Jaqen a different name he gave a different one instead

Biter doesn't speak, he hisses.

why would the First Sword of Bravos be in Westeros?

Ex-first sword, and what he's here for is obvious: to make money while teaching the sword to young nobles, a comfortable job. What's mysterious about it?

[Ser Greguh]

If you want direct quotes and truth.. sorry, I doubt you will find it. If you demand it, what are you doing dicussing theories?

You are using a faulty definition of "theory". What we are considering a theory is much more than a wild-ass guess. "Textual support" generally refers to something within the text that either directly, or through inference, points to a fact or set of facts that are not obvious. If we fail to have any criteria with which to distinguish what is or is not a "theory", we might as well that Jaqen might well simultaneously be Daario, Barristan Selmy, Qhorin Halfhand, Hodor, Varamyr Sixskins, and dozens of characters we have yet to meet. After all, has GRRM stated definitively that a Faceless Man can't in fact be within several bodies at once? No? Then what counter-argument can you provide?

This is why the Syrio=Jaqen speculation is so widely maligned. It simply doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all, unless you count an argument as weak as "they both speak with Free Cities accents" as anything greater than pure nonsense.

Arguments such as "GRRM wouldn't do this because he doesn't like bringing characters back" may be factual, but are unnecessary as the burden of evidence is on the person making the theory to begin with to, at the very least, provide something within the text that points to the argument. After (literally) years of this so-called "theory" failing to die, I'm quite convinced that such evidence simply does not exist.

[Phoenix-torn]

Wow, this is not a happy thread...

I just don't understand why people are so angry. It's just a theory. And people have put more into it than just a "wild-ass guess." It might not be a strong theory, partially because Syrio was a minor character and played a minor role in the first book. By all means argue but people are just getting mean.

Do I believe that Syrio is Jaquen? not really

Do I think Syrio is alive? Probably not

But i've read too many comic books (yeah I know...) to completely rule out the possibility. I didn't see a body or hear from witnesses so there is that twinge of doubt in my mind. Martin could have easily added a line to clearify this but he doesn't. He wants us to discuss, he wants us to argue. There is no need to cut down people. We're all in this fandom together.

[iheartseverus]

What Phoenix-torn said.

[Lord O' Bones]

In order of plausability based on evidence in the text:

1. Sandor Clegane is alive.

2. Gregor Clegane is alive.

3. The Faceless Man that was Jaqen H'Gar is now Pate in Oldtown.

4. Alleras the Sphinx is Sarella the Sand Snake.

5. R+L=J

6. Lyanna Stark is the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

7. Ser Lyn Corbray is gay.

8. Baby Aegon is alive.

9. Hot Pie is The Prince That Was Promised.

10. Syrio Forel is alive.

[SFDanny]

1) Syrio miraculously defeats Meryn Trant. We know this does not happen because Trant shows up later, quite uninjured.

Not to take a position in this thread because I don't really care much if Syrio is dead or not. I do think, however, you're overstating the case quite a bit with this statement. Trant doesn't show up again in the story until much later - I believe it is likely more than a month later - so he has ample time to heal from all but the most serious wounds possibly inflicted in his fight with Syrio. From this bit of information we don't know very much at all. For this scenario to work, Syrio has only to knock Trant out, or otherwise incapacitate him, and escape. I know, I know that is rather a large and difficult "only" to accomplish given Syrio's plight as we last see him, but it does not necessitate Trant sustaining injuries that would show up a month after his battle with Syrio, especially ones that would have to be noticed in Sansa's description of Trant.

[Serc]

My problem with that is that if Syrio had him knocked unconscious.. why not just kill him?

And if I got Biter wrong, my apoologies.. I could care less which is Biter and which is Rorge.

The argument that we do not know their past only makes sense in this case... they were both largely unknown, and found within the same location within a time span. Or else Jaqen could have killed the third prisoner on his way out.. for what reason I don't know. Yoren, however, we DO know of his past. We know hes been travelling around, recruiting people for the Wall.

Regardless, if I have made anyone angry, my apologies. I just enjoy speculating on Syrio, because something never did feel right with that.

[Ser Greguh]

Wow, this is not a happy thread...

I just don't understand why people are so angry. It's just a theory. And people have put more into it than just a "wild-ass guess." It might not be a strong theory, partially because Syrio was a minor character and played a minor role in the first book. By all means argue but people are just getting mean.

Do I believe that Syrio is Jaquen? not really

Do I think Syrio is alive? Probably not

But i've read too many comic books (yeah I know...) to completely rule out the possibility. I didn't see a body or hear from witnesses so there is that twinge of doubt in my mind. Martin could have easily added a line to clearify this but he doesn't. He wants us to discuss, he wants us to argue. There is no need to cut down people. We're all in this fandom together.

Meh, I don't get upset, just maybe a a little exasperated, and I strongly distinguish between cutting down an idea and cutting down a person. In my book despite all the effort put forth to promote the theory, nothing that's come forth in its favor has been any better than a "wild-ass guess" ;)