You say you want a REVOLUTION

[turinturambar]

Having spent alot of time with Persian youths as well, I can tell you that, in my experience, they are generally about the same as any of the youths you meet from Europe or Canada or the like. They don't hate the US as "The Great Satan" or anything of the like, but they are well aware of the US propensity for meddling and they hate THAT alot.

Regardless, any overt moves by the US only strengthen Ahmadinejad's position.

Yet there are more Persians living in the US than all non-middleastern countries combined. Persians in my experience have been very supportive of the US(other than the Iraq war) and don't have this "hate" you speak of, at least not to the level you have implied.

[Shryke]

But I think it is true that most Iranian youth probably dont hate the US and watch bootleg DVDs of 'Friends' episodes.

There's a difference between "Hate all our culture and everything about us" and "Like some of our television/movies, want to trade with us to make money, but still fucking hate our foreign policy for fucking around with their country".

It's the same way the world can hate Bush the Lesser, but still watch American Idol.

[mcbigski]

Wow, that's just a really dumb statement.

You know the protesters on the street screaming for their voices to be heard and for a non-sham election? Those people STILL fucking hate the US for the CIA led coup back in the day.

That's why Obama is staying the fuck out of this whole situation.

The only people left alive who remember the CIA coup in the 50's are in their 70s at least. While the US is one of the most influential nations on the planet, the CIA is not actually the puppet master for everything that happens in the world. Obama appears to me to be staying out the way mostly because dialogue with the current regime in Iran was one of the linchpins of how he was planning on contrasting his foreign policy with the previous administration. That being said, whatever any POTUS were to say in this situation would be of relatively small actual impact, however useful symbolically. I'm sure worrying about what POTUS says is pretty low on the list of people living in Tehran while there are mass demonstrations, shootings, beatings etc right in their front yards.

[Shryke]

AMERICANS haven't forgotten that the CIA overthrow Iran's government (among others), why would you think the people who's government you overthrew would?

[Lord O' Bones]

AMERICANS haven't forgotten that the CIA overthrow Iran's government

I'm sure a man on the street survey would totally back this up. :lol: I'd've thought you'd've met some of us by now. Unless by AMERICANS you mean "more than two of them." That's probably true.

[dalThor]

It seems the 'official' death toll has reached 12 now. (link) I've seen numbers as high as 32 yet nothing seems to confirm that number. Sources are saying over 1500 people detained, among them 200 activists. (link)

The cleric who could best be described as the anti-Khomeini, Ayatolla Montazari, has purportedly taken a stand. An excerpt from his statement:

Now, based on my religious duties, I will remind you :

1- A legitimate state must respect all points of view. It may not oppress all critical views. I fear that this lead to the lost of people’s faith in Islam.

2- Given the current circumstances, I expect the government to take all measures to restore people’s confidence. Otherwise, as I have already said, a government not respecting people’s vote has no religious or political legitimacy.

3- I invite everyone, specially the youth, to continue reclaiming their dues in calm, and not let those who want to associate this movement with chaos succeed.

4- I ask the police and army personals not to “sell their religionâ€, and beware that receiving orders will not excuse them before god. Recognize the protesting youth as your children. Today censor and cutting telecommunication lines can not hide the truth.

I pray for the greatness of the Iranian people.

The supreme leader's brother, reformist cleric Hadi Khamenei, called for an impartial, independent commission made up of representatives from numerous branches of government and all the opposition candidates, according to the Mehr news agency.

(from first link above)

ETA:

I'm sure a man on the street survey would totally back this up. I'd've thought you'd've met some of us by now. Unless by AMERICANS you mean "more than two of them." That's probably true.

Iran? Isn't that some old band? Maybe I'm, like, thinking of, like, Duran Duran or something.

[Shryke]

I'm sure a man on the street survey would totally back this up. :lol: I'd've thought you'd've met some of us by now. Unless by AMERICANS you mean "more than two of them." That's probably true.

Politically active Americans? Young Americans? etc etc.

It's not exactly UNcommon knowledge.

[Galactus]

Yet there are more Persians living in the US than all non-middleastern countries combined. Persians in my experience have been very supportive of the US(other than the Iraq war) and don't have this "hate" you speak of, at least not to the level you have implied.

I'll just point out that iranian expats naturally tend to have a different view of the US than natives. (and it even differs between groups of expats) those who supported the Shah (or their descendants) are far more likely to have a positive impression of the US I strongly suspect.

[The Stranger]

1. i am glad to see this topic didn't die. i didn't notice the new thread for most of today.

2. i need someone with a background in statistics to help me explain, clinically, why all of the previous sample sets used to verify an individual's cred in Iranology might be...problematic.

3. [friday] is game day: in states where significant mosque attendance is part of everyday life, friday tends to be when shit goes down. the noon prayer has the highest attendance of any prayer in the week, and more importantly it is the time when preachers are expected to give speeches relating to current events. the 1979 revolution sprung directly out of a series of funerals held before and during friday prayers. people are dead, and this is the first friday after the election. for both blocs, this represents a chance to appeal to latent supporters who have heretofore avoided street protests but won't miss their normal weekly religious routine. most importantly, Khamenei breaks his silence.

errata: a couple posts back I mentioned Mesbah-Yazdi and accidentally attributed some inaccurate deeds to his dimple-headed name (he prays a lot. he has a dimple.) M-Y runs the seminary-database and is the head of the hardest Mahdist faction within Qom, and has served as confessor to Ahmadinejad. The dude attached to the Iranian embassy in Damascus, who lost his hand to a CIA bomb and has been directly fingered as the the go-to man linking Hezbollah and Iran, is M-Y's pupil, Hojateslam Mohtashmi-Pur.

...the shit i think up at three in the morning, and will subsequently deem worthy cause over which to leave my girlfriend in an empty bed.

ACHTUNG! I have just been informed that, as a result of being on vacation, lack of sleep, and bouncing between timezones, I have zero friggin clue what day it is. Protests are marked for today, Thursday, BUT FRIDAY REMAINS THE BIG DAY BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN EVERYONE POURS INTO THEIR MOSQUE DU JOUR FOR MARCHING ORDERS, AND KHAMENEI WILL BREAK HIS PUBLIC SILENCE TO OFFICIALLY PRONOUNCE THE GOVT'S POLICY ON THE ELECTION RESULTS.

[Usotsuki]

If only there were a magical means of discovering Iranian attitudes to the American population, the American government, American influence and military presence in the Middle East slightly more reliable than recounting anecdotes about the Iranian expatriate community in the US.

Perhaps it might show that favourable attitudes towards the American people can coexist quite comfortably with deep suspicion of the American government's polices and grave concerns about the extent of American influence in the Middle East, the presence of the American military and what that might mean for Iranian national security.

[lokisnow]

While I was vaguely aware we did some uncool shit with Iran dealing with some fellow called the shah in the late seventies or mid eighties I had no idea the CIA overthrew Iran's government in the 50s, and I consider myself a fairly well educated, politically aware American.

[The Stranger]

While I was vaguely aware we did some uncool shit with Iran dealing with some fellow called the shah in the late seventies or mid eighties I had no idea the CIA overthrew Iran's government in the 50s, and I consider myself a fairly well educated, politically aware American.

prepare to have the rest of your mind blown when I tell you the coup was conducted in 1953 by Teddy Roosevelt's grandson using circus performers and revolutionary generals sneaking around dressed in drag, all on behalf of the company which would one day become BP.

[Usotsuki]

If I might be forgiven for a moment of pride in the great accomplishments of my pallid and sacred homeland* Iranian suspicion of the US government is nothing more than the weak echo of apprehensions about the British. After all we actually invaded. :smoking:

*copyright RT enterprises

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Dammit, Stranger, next thing you'll be telling me is that "anecdote" (or "antidote", for that matter) isn't really the singular of "data".

PS Can I get an online PhD in Iranology? Maybe from Speedy Degrees?

[semi-seriously, it isn't Friday, unless I'm really confused. Not even using sunset as start-of-day. Do you just mean that today's the day to get everything lined up to see what happens tomorrow? Also, I keep seeing notices that Khamenei will lead this Friday's prayers. Is that unusual? I've been able to find articles that refer to Khatami as "Interim Friday Prayers Leader", but so far nothing on who the "usual" leader is. I know he (ETA2: Khamenei) was appointed to the post by Khomeini, but no idea if he was expected to continue with that role up to and including his post as Supreme Leader.]

ETA: Marg bar Basiji, indeed.

[The Stranger]

If I might be forgiven for a moment of pride in the great accomplishments of my pallid and sacred homeland* Iranian suspicion of the US government is nothing more than the weak echo of apprehensions about the British. After all we actually invaded. :smoking:

*copyright RT enterprises

nice to plug them. they're my favorite ltd right now.

Actually, I'm drawing on blank on when the Brits invaded Persia, since they haven't invaded post-Reza Khan Pahlavi Iran. The Russians shelled the constitutional convention in Tabriz and the Brits were allowed to maintain a couple of listening posts, but was there a war I've missed? Seriously, now this is bugging me.

And to be fair, we also invaded. Captain Peanut just flew all of our invasion craft into a freak sandstorm. Not that religion-fueled revolutionaries read anything into that, of course.

[The Stranger]

Dammit, Stranger, next thing you'll be telling me is that "anecdote" (or "antidote", for that matter) isn't really the singular of "data".

PS Can I get an online PhD in Iranology? Maybe from Speedy Degrees?

[semi-seriously, it isn't Friday, unless I'm really confused. Not even using sunset as start-of-day. Do you just mean that today's the day to get everything lined up to see what happens tomorrow? Also, I keep seeing notices that Khamenei will lead this Friday's prayers. Is that unusual? I've been able to find articles that refer to Khatami as "Interim Friday Prayers Leader", but so far nothing on who the "usual" leader is. I know he was appointed to the post by Khomeini, but no idea if he was expected to continue with that role up to and including his post as Supreme Leader.]

ETA: Marg bar Basiji, indeed.

Eef: sorry for the confusion. i'm an academic with summers off, so I stopped caring about what day it is about...oh, three weeks ago. Friday is indeed the day things are supposed to go down. And just between us two, 'Iranologist' is indeed an old-school term used to describe scholars of classical persian poetry and literature, but I used it here purely for its snark-value. don't tell the haters.

[Usotsuki]

Operation Countenance in 1941, a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion to ensure that the Persian corridor remained open and that the Royal Navy would continue to benefit from the fuel of Abadan without having to do anything so humiliating as pay for it.

It's between the suppression of the Mau Mau and the invasion of Tibet on the Official List of Wars that the British Forgot that Other People are Mean Enough to Remember.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Huffington post blogger claims Ayatollah, Mohammad Taghi Mesbah Yazdi issued a fatwa to Ministry of Interior employees saying:

"If someone is elected the president and hurts the Islamic values . . . it is against Islam to vote for that person." After harshly criticizing the other candidates (Mousavi, Karroubi, and Rezaie) he went on: "You should throw away those who are unqualified, both morally and lawfully."

The letter reported that the elections' supervisors subsequently became "happy and energetic for having obtained the religious Fatwa to use any trick for changing the vote and began immediately to develop plans for it." (The letter indicated that the same thing had been done in March 2006 to help fundamentalists allied with Ahmadinejad in that election. But when the Interior Minister at that time, Mostafa Pourmohammadi, reported these irregularities to the Supreme Leader, he was fired by President Ahmadinejad.)

Well, isn't that just wonderful. You can steal an election and please God in the process.

[IheartTesla]

Operation Countenance in 1941, a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion to ensure that the Persian corridor remained open and that the Royal Navy would continue to benefit from the fuel of Abadan without having to do anything so humiliating as pay for it.

Based on this history, why did Ahmed go to Russia? And apropos of nothing, there are some allegations that I read on Sullivans blog accusing Ahmed of going to Russia to learn from the masters how to crush dissidents. Along with other allegations that he had given up Iran's rights in the Caspian Sea to the Russians. I'm not sure whether he even has the power to do such a thing without backing from the guardian council/Supreme leader Khameini.

[The Stranger]

Operation Countenance in 1941, a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion to ensure that the Persian corridor remained open and that the Royal Navy would continue to benefit from the fuel of Abadan without having to do anything so humiliating as pay for it.

It's between the suppression of the Mau Mau and the invasion of Tibet on the Official List of Wars that the British Forgot that Other People are Mean Enough to Remember.

Okay, I didn't know the name of the operation that overthrew Reza Khan. makes sense. it's a damn shame, too, because Khan was a thug but he was also a very good modernizer. if he'd been allowed to remain in power (instead of dying in exile) Iran prolly would've been a limited republic by the 1950s, at the very least. He didn't even want to be Shah.