Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn

[Prince Who Was Promised]

I bought my copy of The Dragonbone Chair, Book One of Tad William's Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series about a year ago. I stumbled through it (for a 12 year old, I had a short attention span).

Now, a year (maybe a bit more later, but I suppose it doesn't matter; I was 12 then and I'm thirteen now), I decided to buy Stone of Farewell, Book Two. But there was a problem. I forgot what happend in book one, and, rather than just read the "What Came Before" section, I decided to reread Book One. My reason for this is that I like to connect with the characters. The "What Came Before" section wouldn't help me do that. Not to mention I skimmed ALOT on my first read attempt, and got pretty lost by the end.

So, I recently did my reread, and I really enjoyed it. However, I noticed there were no threads here deticated to the series (which I'm slightly surprised about; it was the series that inspired Martin to write his fantasy saga). So...I'm starting one. Right now.

Discuss.

P.S. For any spoilers...use spoiler tag-thingies. ;)

[kuenjato]

I read at at around your age, when it first came out (1988? 87?).

It was one of my favorite series, then, as the writing was much better than most of the fantasy on the shelves those days.

Dunno if I'd re-read it (I've read the whole series twice) -- it's rather slow and minor compared to certain other authors that have graced the scene from then on. Williams has a nice style but can descend into bloat. Otherland was much, much worse on the latter charge.

[Iskaral Pust]

I've started this twice and stopped before I got halfway through. It felt so childish, formulaic and predictable. Perhaps I should have read it when I was 10. I can't see myself finishing it now.

[Dresden]

I was twelve when I started, and finished, the series. I think it was a decent series, but it certainly isn't up there with the greats.

It's been nine or so years since I read it, but from what I can remember, I detested the girl-princess, Miriamele, and Simon seemed like a total cluecless douche for most of the series. Binabik, Camaris (the guy who had Thorn), and Josua were all fun characters, though.

[Guinevere Seaworth]

I seem to be the minority here, but I just finished re-reading Memory, Sorrow and Thorn a few weeks ago and I still love that series. I still ranks up in my top 5 fantasy series of all time. I know it has a slow start and uses alot of time worn fantasy cliches, but for some reason it works for me. I adore Binabik and Duke Isgrimnur.

On the re-read, I really noticed the body count. He trimmed the cast of characters hugely throughout the series. This was before GRRM came out with ASOIAF.

There are some scenes that are just epic for me:

SPOILER: Scenes

Camaris blowing the horn, the ghant nest (I still shudder reading that scene) and Igjarjuk.

[Galactus]

I think it's not one of the greats, but it's one the level below that the "This was a good series" level.

There is a palpable sense of despair that is very effectively conveyed I think, and also the Sithi are actually *freaky*.

[Isis]

Hmmm. There are so many series out there that are better than this. That would explain why there isn't a thread dedicated to it. Although, I'm sure I've seen one around here at some point.

It's quite funny that you point out to us that this book inspired GRRM (pretty sure he never claimed it was his only influence though, i.e. it isn't THE book that inspired ASOIAF but one of them) when some of us read it before you were born. :lol:

[DrownedCrow]

I find it disappointing that the same board that adulates such talentless authors as Erikson, Bakker, Abraham, etc does not show much appreciation for this series. Yes, there are a few formulaic elements especially in the beginning, but by the end I think its clearly a very original work. As for it being childish, well, I really don't know what to say other than that if M,S, and T must be considered childish, then so is every other fantasy series I've ever read. For one thing, Williams does the whole "shades of gray" thing better than almost anyone, in some ways even better than GRRM.

[The Warlock of Qarth]

I found MST to be a highly enjoyable series, though I agree that the beginning is slow as hell. I believe I restarted it 3-4 times before I managed to get through the first few chapters, but the pace picks up well after that. I liked Binabik and Josua as well. Simon seemed like a mopey teenager to me (which he was of course) and I was hoping desperately for someone to shoot Miriamele in the head with an arrow.....repeatedly. Also, the Sithi are probably one of the better interpretations of what elves would be like compared to the usual 'really pretty people with pointy ears' one encounters in fantasy.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

DC,

I like Bakker, Abraham, I've not read Erikson, and Williams. I love MST I've read it three times. Where do you get this idea that Bakker and Abraham are "talentless"?

[Frog Eater]

I read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn last year. It took me over a year to start the first book, but once I did, I read through the series.

It definately felt childish in parts, but other parts were well written.

I liked the Sithi, and the history formed therein. I hated the end. I wont include spoilers.

[Artas]

* BEWARE: MAJOR SPOILERS IN THIS TEXT *

I really like MS&T, which is the first fantasy series I read after The Lord of the Rings. It has always surprised me how little appreciation it gets on this board, even to the point of being brandished "typical fantasy cliche".

Sure, Williams takes his time to set things up (as he always does). And no one would claim the politics of Osten Ard are as complicated and engaging as those of Westeros, I think. Still, the Sithi are among the best "alien" races I've read about - they *are* freaky, as Galactus has said, and melancholy and fascinating and, overall, convincing. We haven't seen enough of the Others yet to make a proper comparison, but so far, they fail to live up to the Sithi and the Norns.

Moreover, MS&T tweaks many of the cliches that earlier fantasy works made use of (and some still do). For one thing, the main villain is *right*, up to a point: he and his people have been driven from their rightful homes by savage (human) conquerors. Even while stressing the terrible nature of the Stormking, Williams never lets us forget his tragic side - indeed, pity and a refusal to hate play a key role in the defeat of Ineluki. Some may find this sappy, but I thought it was well handled.

Morgenes fulfills the archetypal role of the wise mentor, but he disappears early in the story and, unlike Gandalf, doesn't come back. (If I'm not mistaken, GRRM complained about Gandalf's return in LOTR, so this may be one of the reasons MS&T appealed to him.) All the other characters have left of him are memories and written words.

Finally, Williams takes a swipe at the age old quest motive: as it turns out, the three swords of the title do not help the heroes to overthrow the dark lord, but actually form a trap, set by Ineluki and the Norn Queen. Apparently, one should not be too eager to believe in ancient prophecies. (Martin uses this theme as well, as Maester Marwyn's infamous words on the matter attest.)

I guess what bugs most people is the ending, with Simon turning out to be the lost heir who now picks up the crown. Even here, a bit of realpolitik shines through, though: it is explicitly acknowledged by one of the characters that Simon is a better candidate for the throne than Miriamele, since he is renowned for his role in the defeat of the Stormking, whereas her role is a lot more unclear and, apparently, less heroic. His royal lineage is fortunate, but certainly not the only reason he becomes king.

All in all, a classic of the genre, I'd say - despite any flaws it may have.

[UndergroundMan]

I read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn last year. It took me over a year to start the first book, but once I did, I read through the series.

It definately felt childish in parts, but other parts were well written.

I liked the Sithi, and the history formed therein. I hated the end. I wont include spoilers.

I finished the first book about six months ago, but I had to slough my way through it. I also found it boring and predictable and I was never particularly fond of the characters. As soon as I finished it I read the first chapter of book 2 and haven't gone on since. It has just been sitting on my shelf with a bookmark in chapter 2 for about 5 or 6 months now. So, is the series worth finishing? Do the books get better as they go along? Also, I feel almost compelled to read it because I rarely ever leave a series unfinished and I already bought all 4 books. And I never just stop in the middle of a book, so is the series just exceptionally boring or does it just not match my tastes in fantasy?

[Frog Eater]

I finished the first book about six months ago, but I had to slough my way through it. I also found it boring and predictable and I was never particularly fond of the characters. As soon as I finished it I read the first chapter of book 2 and haven't gone on since. It has just been sitting on my shelf with a bookmark in chapter 2 for about 5 or 6 months now. So, is the series worth finishing? Do the books get better as they go along? Also, I feel almost compelled to read it because I rarely ever leave a series unfinished and I already bought all 4 books. And I never just stop in the middle of a book, so is the series just exceptionally boring or does it just not match my tastes in fantasy?

I think I finished it out of a sence of obligation. The story itself is good. Read it.

[MattD]

Tad Williams has always been an author whose projects sounded interesting to me in summary form. Then when I actually read them I typically find them incredibly drawn out and tedious, only to reach dull endings (the exceptions being his shorter stand-alone works). I remember for MS&T this feeling began to kick in during the second volume -- Simon spends many chapters sitting around being bored, and thus so did I. Then there's the third volume, which in hardcover qualifies as a weapon of mass destruction.

The cliche's didn't bother me, though, because I understood what Williams is doing here. As Artas writes, it is a work that's in dialogue with Lord of the Rings, as Williams attempts to go back to much of Tolkien's source material and create a revisionary epic. So there are very obviously good and bad people in any given race; the shadowy "dark lord" actually has a legit beef, and his Nazgul-like servants weren't betrayed, but rather brave and loyal; the suffering of the characters doesn't just harden their wills against their enemy; etc.

Like I said, I like and applaud the idea in theory, it's just the execution left me underwhelmed.

[DrownedCrow]

I like Bakker, Abraham, I've not read Erikson, and Williams. I love MST I've read it three times. Where do you get this idea that Bakker and Abraham are "talentless"?

Bakker's writing is awkward and unreadable. Abraham writes the closest thing to a soap opera I've seen in fantasy this side of Robin Hobb. Neither has a tenth of the talent that Williams possesses.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

Hmmm. There are so many series out there that are better than this. That would explain why there isn't a thread dedicated to it. Although, I'm sure I've seen one around here at some point.

It's quite funny that you point out to us that this book inspired GRRM (pretty sure he never claimed it was his only influence though, i.e. it isn't THE book that inspired ASOIAF but one of them) when some of us read it before you were born. :lol:

Well, I didn't mean THE book that inspired him.

And, about that last comment...I must say I started laughing. So many people say stuff like that to me all the time.

Cliches don't bother me, as long as they are done WELL. That's one of the reasons I like Martin (and some other authors). But things I DON'T like would be, as someone else mentioned, when people "die" and come back just fine later on. When people die, I want them to stay dead. (I didn't like the Thoros necromancy stuff much, but it was better than other takes on the subject)

And, to the person that mentioned Bakker...I heard the series was quite good, as well as the characters. It's next on my reading list. But, then again, I've heard only positive things about it. I suppose it'd be fair to hear some negitive things also, so I don't get any unpleasant surprises.

[Xereaux]

I first read MS&T sixteen years or so ago, and up until recently, it's been my favorite series. (Prince of Nothing has recently replaced it, but don't tell DrownedCrow that...) I've reread it close to a dozen times, so yeah, I'm a fan. I agree that to one who has perhaps missed the older style and started out with the current "gritty" trend in fantasy, the series can be lacking. To each their own, I guess.

Myself, I like details and exposition, so Tad's long-windedness doesn't bother me. As for the cliches, I think MattD hit the nail on the head. I read an interview or something (it was a long time ago) from Tad that said he set out to tackle the epic fantasy novel on his own terms, adjusting the cliches as he saw fit. Also, I think that some of these adjustments have become cliches themselves since MS&T was published, such as the <minor spoiler> sympathetic villain </spoiler>. What seems stale these days was not so stale back in the late 80s/early 90s.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Count me as one of those who like Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.

[malek]

I greatly enjoyed first book, and tried to get through 2'nd at least 3 or 4 times. (Maby reading Martin in between those two wasn't smartest idea ever).

I think that Williams is among the best fantasy writers out there, and his style of writing is most pleasant to read. But I cant stand most of his characters, and high-fantasy creatures he tends to over use. He sometimes entangles himself into fantasy cliches, too.

Still it is a good fantasy series that I will finish sooner or later.

Btw. Martin said that Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy made him believe that it is still possible to write fantasy for adults, and that is how it influenced him to start working on ASOIAF.

[The Space Pope]

Tad Williams has always been an author whose projects sounded interesting to me in summary form. Then when I actually read them I typically find them incredibly drawn out and tedious, only to reach dull ending

God yes, this is like the perfect description.

Hell, someone mentioned this series to me a few months back and I looked it up again to refresh my memory. And reading the summaries, I was like "Why didn't I like this again?".

And then I tried to read it again and I remembered why. It's dull. Really, really dull.

He's got great ideas and the story isn't bad, but he seems to spin it out in the most boring way possible. I think even Tolkien was less dull then this.