The Latest News
Connect with Us

Notable Releases
From the Store
Game of Thrones Lannister House Banner
House Lannister Wall Plaque
HBO US
Featured Sites
License Holders

Jump to content


Photo

So what is this "Meereenese knot" Martin is referring to on his "not a blog"


  • Please log in to reply
359 replies to this topic

#1 Lord Stormborn

Lord Stormborn

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 05:59 PM

Without giving away to many spoilers for the next book... what do you think the "Meereenese knot" is? Martin seems to be stuck on a plot point in the new book involving it. Who are these Meereenese? Are there any references in the finished books to it? I searched the forums some, and didn't have a lot of luck finding any discussions. If there are some, please link to here!
Thanks

#2 Chalky

Chalky

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 635 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 06:11 PM

Without giving away to many spoilers for the next book... what do you think the "Meereenese knot" is? Martin seems to be stuck on a plot point in the new book involving it. Who are these Meereenese? Are there any references in the finished books to it? I searched the forums some, and didn't have a lot of luck finding any discussions. If there are some, please link to here!
Thanks

its referring to Dany's plotline in Meereen I believe. Im sure others know exactly WHAT the problem with it is but (not knowing) id speculate that Martins having difficulty getting Dany out of there and on her way to Westeros

#3 Brady

Brady

    hella cromwell side-eye

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,945 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 06:45 PM

Several of the storylines and characters apparently converge in Mereen.

#4 RWHamel

RWHamel

    The B-Team

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,379 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 06:50 PM

It's sort of like the U.S. exit strategy for Iraq and Afghanistan. Basically it sucks, and both Dany and the U.S. will look like assholes when they exercise it.

#5 Chalky

Chalky

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 635 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 07:20 PM

It's sort of like the U.S. exit strategy for Iraq and Afghanistan. Basically it sucks, and both Dany and the U.S. will look like assholes when they exercise it.

Well I could enjoy a plotline like Dany having to be an asshole, go for it george!

Edited by Chalky, 21 July 2009 - 07:20 PM.


#6 The_BlauerDragon

The_BlauerDragon

    Sworn Sword of Dischord and Minister of Malcontent

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,640 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 07:39 PM

Dear George,
Here is a solution to the entire problem that I think 90% of the readers could live with: Have Dany die. Her Dragons will then be free to fly away and be Dragons. Then Tyrion can take command of the Unsullied (and possibly one of the Dragons) and embark towards Westeros, while Que-ball and Vic-y-boy do their own thing (like battle it out, or form a secret alliance against Euron, etc.).

I know I would like that solution!

If you don't want her to die, you could just have her get kidnapped and sold into slavery or something (as long as it retires her POV).

#7 SergioCQH

SergioCQH

    Member Since 2000

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,957 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 09:23 PM

Dear George,
Here is a solution to the entire problem that I think 90% of the readers could live with: Have Dany die. Her Dragons will then be free to fly away and be Dragons. Then Tyrion can take command of the Unsullied (and possibly one of the Dragons) and embark towards Westeros, while Que-ball and Vic-y-boy do their own thing (like battle it out, or form a secret alliance against Euron, etc.).

I know I would like that solution!

If you don't want her to die, you could just have her get kidnapped and sold into slavery or something (as long as it retires her POV).


For all our admiration for his willingness to kill off characters, we know Jon and Dany are going all the way, if not to a happy ending, then at least to the last book.

#8 The_BlauerDragon

The_BlauerDragon

    Sworn Sword of Dischord and Minister of Malcontent

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,640 posts

Posted 21 July 2009 - 10:22 PM

For all our admiration for his willingness to kill off characters, we know Jon and Dany are going all the way, if not to a happy ending, then at least to the last book.

Are you George R.R. Martin? Because if you aren't, then there is no way for you to know anything of the sort. For all we know, they could both die sometime in aDwD. Just because Dany is the absolute last Targ (save for a possible hidden baby Aegon, or a character like Tyrion being revealed as a Targ bastard), and the Targ's are thought to represent fire... that doesn't mean that she absolutely must survive. Likewise, Jon may be the oldest surviving child of Eddard Stark, but that doesn't mean that he is "Ice". There are a myriad of other possibilities available even without having a specific literary device that explicitly embodies the song of Ice and Fire. That could just be a name that represents the larger cyclical struggle between winter and summer for all we know. For that matter, the pieces of the sword ICE could end up being reunited and forged back together into a Greatsword named "Fire" at some point. We just do not know. Only GRRM can be said to Know. Everyone else is just guessing and speculating.

#9 SergioCQH

SergioCQH

    Member Since 2000

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,957 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 12:57 AM

TBD,

I'm just saying that you're going to be disappointed if you keep hoping for Dany to die. I think you know this to be true.

#10 israfel070

israfel070

    Council Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 710 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:06 AM

It's a literary reference to this: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gordian_Knot

Basically it means a problem that's difficult to unravel, so you have to cut through it with drastic measures.

Meereen is a city over in the Ghiscari Empire's vicinity, somewhere on the southern coast of the eastern continent. It sits on the outlet of the Skahazadan river into the sea, if I recall correctly. OIL would know about all that. "Slaver's Bay" is Meereen's port.

George was just sticking an ASOIAF city name onto a literary trope as stated above, it's nothing special.

Edited by israfel070, 22 July 2009 - 01:14 AM.


#11 Jon Targaryen

Jon Targaryen

    Crouching Direwolf, Hidden Dragon

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,399 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 01:31 AM

I know I would like that solution!

Obviously true.

Here is a solution to the entire problem that I think 90% of the readers could live with: Have Dany die.

Uh, probably false. 90%?

#12 Horza

Horza

    overredacting

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,344 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 02:08 AM

Obviously true.


Uh, probably false. 90%?


You're talking to the guy who listed Gregor Clegane as a Liberal.

#13 marwyn

marwyn

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 553 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 02:42 AM

Are you George R.R. Martin? Because if you aren't, then there is no way for you to know anything of the sort. For all we know, they could both die sometime in aDwD. Just because Dany is the absolute last Targ (save for a possible hidden baby Aegon, or a character like Tyrion being revealed as a Targ bastard), and the Targ's are thought to represent fire... that doesn't mean that she absolutely must survive. Likewise, Jon may be the oldest surviving child of Eddard Stark, but that doesn't mean that he is "Ice". There are a myriad of other possibilities available even without having a specific literary device that explicitly embodies the song of Ice and Fire. That could just be a name that represents the larger cyclical struggle between winter and summer for all we know. For that matter, the pieces of the sword ICE could end up being reunited and forged back together into a Greatsword named "Fire" at some point. We just do not know. Only GRRM can be said to Know. Everyone else is just guessing and speculating.


Without derailing the thread too much, but George kills characters off for a reason, because it works for the story. It would be incredibly pointless to kill her off until she's at least had more interaction with the rest of the PoV's.

But anyway, we saw in FfC that a lot of people are on their way to Dany to use her for one purpose or another. We have Victarion, Quentyn, Marwyn, Tyrion, Aurane Waters (apparently), etc. I guess all those people that want to use Dany for their own purposes would create quite a "knot", storywise. Who's going to get away with what, who will Dany trust and who not, etc.

#14 Knight o' Pansies

Knight o' Pansies

    Squire

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 232 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 09:36 AM

Nonsense, TBD. Thoros is obviously "fire" and Oathkeeper and the other sword(that Joeffry recieved?) that were made out of Ice are "ice", so clearly he'll get the other one(he already has Oathkeeper) and duel-wield them, flaming(no less), and proceed to kick everyone's ass!

It is known.

#15 Lord Stormborn

Lord Stormborn

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 32 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 05:06 PM

It's a literary reference to this: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Gordian_Knot

Basically it means a problem that's difficult to unravel, so you have to cut through it with drastic measures.

Meereen is a city over in the Ghiscari Empire's vicinity, somewhere on the southern coast of the eastern continent. It sits on the outlet of the Skahazadan river into the sea, if I recall correctly. OIL would know about all that. "Slaver's Bay" is Meereen's port.

George was just sticking an ASOIAF city name onto a literary trope as stated above, it's nothing special.


This is the kind of answer I was looking for.
But the thought of "How is Dany going to get to Westeros and the throne?" being a knot; is good too.

#16 Roza Ahai

Roza Ahai

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 541 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 10:38 PM

Agree with TBD! How to solve Meereenese knot? Simply let any character or dragon kill Dany. The bloody relationship between the mother and her child.

#17 Lord Commander Snow

Lord Commander Snow

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 57 posts

Posted 22 July 2009 - 11:28 PM

Are you George R.R. Martin? Because if you aren't, then there is no way for you to know anything of the sort. For all we know, they could both die sometime in aDwD. Just because Dany is the absolute last Targ (save for a possible hidden baby Aegon, or a character like Tyrion being revealed as a Targ bastard), and the Targ's are thought to represent fire... that doesn't mean that she absolutely must survive. Likewise, Jon may be the oldest surviving child of Eddard Stark, but that doesn't mean that he is "Ice". There are a myriad of other possibilities available even without having a specific literary device that explicitly embodies the song of Ice and Fire. That could just be a name that represents the larger cyclical struggle between winter and summer for all we know. For that matter, the pieces of the sword ICE could end up being reunited and forged back together into a Greatsword named "Fire" at some point. We just do not know. Only GRRM can be said to Know. Everyone else is just guessing and speculating.


If you think there is a significant chance that Jon dies prematurely your horribly wrong, it woudl waste a ton of story telling and plot-line, and probably hurt MArtin's sales a ton... and money talks believe it or not. The books are not immune to real-world reactions... Secondly regardless real-world reactions Jon is central to the plot, and it would make for a bad read to end all of the plot-lines tied to him. And I think a character making it to the end is also realistic, like i think martin likes to go for realism, sometimes characters do succeed, and those characters often make it in the history books, and are the ones worth telling stories about. The guy who builds up all thsi stuff, then fails miserably mid-way through... you don't devote a whole novel to.
---

As far as how to solve teh Mereneese knot.. killing dany isn't a remotely likely solution.. Dany isn't the most well liked character, but either way we have to face she is intrigal to the plot. I think Dany needs to come back to westeros via some contrived means, screw what's going on where she is at now... Just come to westeros she shows some power, knews of the dragons spread like wild-fire.... she makes some allegiances.. eventually ends up on the wall some-how, Jon was like I know one of your blood relatives that died under his care, whatever that maester was called. She learns to trust him, and together they have to face the others, and deal with the lannisters.. Jon has no desire to rule a kingdom toward the end he establishes control of the north, leaving dany the rest of westeros, and chills with his family, Arya, Bran, and whoever he decides to pick up as a lover.

I'd prefer the story where Jon snow has to end up killing Dany for whatever twist of fate, and he has to slay a dragon.... it could very well be taht Melisandre teams up with dany, since she is the real deal... and eventually jon has to take them down.

#18 Roza Ahai

Roza Ahai

    Noble

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 541 posts

Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:31 AM

Jon was like I know one of your blood relatives that died under his care, whatever that maester was called. She learns to trust him, and together they have to face the others, and deal with the lannisters.. Jon has no desire to rule a kingdom toward the end he establishes control of the north, leaving dany the rest of westeros, and chills with his family, Arya, Bran, and whoever he decides to pick up as a lover.

That would be boring, very predictable. Why I like "The Song of Ice and Fire" because of unexpected scenes like Ned's death or Red Wedding. Ned had his own POV and was the main character from beginning and found his end very soon. The last book is dedicated to return of Starks, so Dany might be killed in the 6th book.

#19 Lord Commander Snow

Lord Commander Snow

    Freerider

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 57 posts

Posted 23 July 2009 - 03:29 AM

I doubt it will all be happy and perfect like i laid out, but i think it's obvious that a story about the starks would end with the starks. And the last person you have to resolve the stark's tale is Jon Snow, Eddard's bastard son, and I'd bet money he is the legit father. I didn't know that last line you said, that the last book is devoted to the return of the starks, to me that makes logical sense. The series no matter how you spin it is fundamentally the story of the stark family. The reason Jon can't be killed is because to many story lines surround him, and he's needed to resolve the Stark Knot, he's the only one capable. That and I think people wouldn't buy the next book if he dropped him... He may die toward teh end.

And also ya i don't think it'd be totally surprising if melisandre ditches stannis for Dany, who according to maester Aemon is teh real deal, is what mel has prophesised about, and will wield the true light-bringer.


---

I agree with you the realism of AsoIaf, the unpredictability of it, is what makes it a great series, but realistically someone needs to go the distance if the story is about the starks, and it's not like you read Jon's chapter without worry.. he can still get wounded in one way or another... shafted, screwed over.. kicked out of the NW who knows what... so it's not like it's not suspensful to read his chapters it is,, but obviously certain characters will make it to the end of teh series. Unless Martin plan to drop everyone he has and pick up a new cast to write about... Since I think the books are about the stark story line, then the books end with that resolution... the others and stuff are important, and Jon Snow will play a role in them as well..

Jon may very well die toward the end.... i'm not sure.

#20 Errant Bard

Errant Bard

    precursor of bad business

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,487 posts

Posted 23 July 2009 - 05:30 AM

I doubt it will all be happy and perfect like i laid out, but i think it's obvious that a story about the starks would end with the starks.

Except the story isn't about the Starks, it's about westeros as a whole. Some Stark happen to be heroes, but so do Lannisters and Targaryens.

I didn't know that last line you said, that the last book is devoted to the return of the starks

For good cause, it is entirely speculation, though the idea of a Stark return is usually based on Jojen's "The wolves will return" (he means the Starks), and on the interpretation that the ex-title of the last book (a time for wolves) referred to the Starks.

Edited by Errant Bard, 23 July 2009 - 05:31 AM.