399 replies to this topic

[TheLoneliestMonk]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Jul 24 2009, 11.04, said:

GdsMisfits,

No question there are good, decent, hard working law enforcement personel out there.  What sucks is the failure of the system to deal with law enforcement personel who abuse their authority.  Far too often the bad seeds are swept under the rug and the "blue wall of silence" protects them.  Good cops are stained by the bad cops whether they should be or not.

I think we're on the same page here.  I wasn't trying to play devil's advocate,  just pointing out there are good ones out there, despite the blatent abuse of power by some.

[Simon Steele]

Lord O' Bones, on Jul 24 2009, 02.30, said:

It's worth noting that there are approximately one million police officers in the United States.

Another interesting thing too is how much of these things never come to light? I would think if 333 are readily available, how many are not? Considering the lengths police go to to cover their tracks in some of these stories.

[Simon Steele]

TheLoneliestMonk, on Jul 24 2009, 08.35, said:

So my girlfriend and I are digging through recycle bins for bottles and cans to turn in for cash.  someone calls the cops, and he shows up, tells me people have too much time on their hands, asks me if I smoke pot.  I told him yes, and he still gives me $10 then leaves us alone, telling me to take my girl out to dinner or get gas with the money.

In conclusion, some cops are nice.

Sure. I remember the cop who was stationed in my high school. He was not a dick at all, in fact he was one of the coolest adults we knew. He really wanted to connect with the school kids as a friend/mentor instead of an authoritarian. When my friend got hooked on Meth, my friend's parents mentioned it to the cop (went to the same church) and he tracked my friend down and did a huge amount of work to him out to the point of getting my friend to move away from town to get away from those friends. He took a personal interest in helping people and no matter how much I hate cops, and I do hate them, if I have a run in with one I always give them the benefit of the doubt first because of the one I knew as a kid.

He was kind of an action hero too. Our town was pretty small and had a big meth problem, but extreme violence wasn't a huge issue there. So when some guys in a water truck ramaged through the country outskirts with assault rifles and blew the responding officer away,  you knew the staff was outmatched. The guys shot and wounded two more sheriffs, one of which would have died if the cop I knew didn't show up and didn't act as a field medic to stop the bleeding. The way he always told it was he felt he had a drop on the guys with the assault rifles too but had to make a decision whether or not to pursue or save the deputy on the ground.

All in all he was a great cop. And the sad thing is in most of the national articles on this he isn't even mentioned, only the cops wounded.

Edited by Simon of Steele, 24 July 2009 - 11:34 AM.

[Vestrit]

So what if cops are generally, on balance, pricks?

They spend the bulk of their days dealing with the shitty side of our societies; having people blatantly lie to their faces and sifting through the desperate, the moronic, the sad, the heartless and every now and again they end up facing someone who’s a genuine piece of nasty. And then we expect them to have all the manners and attitude of a travel agent or guidance counsellor with they deal with us citizens?

On balance, I want my cops to be pricks. That way they can get a shitty job done on my behalf.

That’s not me saying that the bad ones should get away with it. But why should I expect a cop to treat me with anything but either automatic suspicion (because they think everybody’s a potential criminal) or disdain (cos I’m some soft office worker who has no clue about what they have to deal with day in day out).

And covering up happens in every job. If cops didn’t cover up mistakes and errors of judgement, you wouldn’t have an effective police force, just like doctors cover up so they can keep the health service working. You just hope that they know which ones not to cover up.

ETA: we had a couple of detectives come round recently after my girlfriend's car got nicked and used in an armed robbery. After getting our statements, taking DNA etc, one of them said: 'Do you know how nice it is to actually spend some time talking to some ordinary people and not scum, like we're normally interviewing?'

Edited by Vestrit, 24 July 2009 - 11:54 AM.

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

Quote

So what if cops are generally, on balance, pricks?

I don't care if cops are pricks.  I don't care if they are rude and beligerent and nasty.  They can yell at me and call me names all day.  It's a free country and they have the freedom to be assholes.

What I care about, is when cops break the law.  When cops beat innocent people for no reason.  When cops frame innocent people for crimes they didn't commit.  When cops intimidate witnesses and destroy evidence to try to cover up their crimes.

Quote

And covering up happens in every job. If cops didn’t cover up mistakes and errors of judgement, you wouldn’t have an effective police force, just like doctors cover up so they can keep the health service working. You just hope that they know which ones not to cover up.

Cops are covering up crimes dammit.  When the people who are supposed to find and punish criminals are themselves criminals, and actively engaging in criminal conspiracies, that is FUCKED UP. When cops cover stuff up, innocent people lose their freedom and their lives.  In my job in banking, if the bank took 10000.00 of your money and I knew about it, and did nothing and told no one, I would be a bad person.  If a cop beats a woman in the face with a pistol, and the other cops try to intimidate witnesses into silence that is evil.

[Simon Steele]

I do care if they are pricks. They don't have a right to treat us with suspicion because in America we have a right to not be treated as guilty, especially by agents of our government. The fact is, because they deal with bad parts of society, they HAVE to act better than the rest of us or we get what you see in this thread--a lot of guys who lose it and abuse their power.

[Ser Aardvark]

Ignoring the delightful "discussions" in this thread and going back to the Gates thing...

I've had very extensive conversations with academics, activists, police officers and chiefs, and studied tons about law enforcement (its one of my specialties at work actually). I wasn't there and neither were 99.999% of people talking about the situation so my opinion is based on a general impression I got from reading a couple of different angles.

Still, long story short, I think things would have been a LOT better had Sgt. Crowley had taken a page out of this famous Maine Statie's book. I don't think him being an annoying asshole in front of a whole bunch of people was worthy of a disorderly conduct arrest and, honestly, had this been a non-Harvard professor I'm sure the charges would still be dropped as they were in this case (though probably not nearly as quickly).

Regardless, and this is advice I've given countless times, it doesn't matter who you are, what you drive, what your skin color is, or how much money you make, except for truly extreme situations (like being beaten or something) never EVER mouth off to a cop. Be respectful even if you think they are being rude, nasty, or racist. Chances are, if they're being rude, nasty racist etc. they're going to give you a ticket and that ticket must have their name and badge #. If you have a piece of paper and a pen handy write down exactly what happened ASAP. If you want to make a complaint do it as soon as you get home.

Call it being "weak" if you must, but I have never heard of anything good come from getting into an argument with a cop. It's like trying to cook spaghetti with a blow torch, it never works and you end up with a completely unnecessary mess.

Edited by Ser Aardvark, 24 July 2009 - 01:41 PM.

[kungtotte]

Ser Aardvark, on Jul 24 2009, 20.41, said:

Still, long story short, I think things would have been a LOT better had Sgt. Crowley had taken a page out of this famous Maine Statie's book.

You know that video is used in a "What not to do"-capacity, right? Being exceedingly polite is actually worse than responding to the anger of the person you're dealing with, he shouldn't have let the man litter (the torn-up ticket) and he definitely shouldn't have let him drive off while that irate.

That being said, it's better with cool and level-headed cops than the opposite, even if the one you linked to is a bad example. I'll see if I can't dig up a better example from a protest, will edit if I find it.

[TheKassi]

A percentage of humanity are criminals. Police officers, being human, are not excluded from that fact. You can trot out a million horror stories, and anyone else can do the same thing for any other group large enough to be noticed on the world stage.

Any race, and religion, every nationality, every walk of life. Hell, I can pull up a lot of articles on some real sick stuff mothers do. Some sick stuff doctors do. Some sick things EMTs have done. Some sick things preteen children have done.

Individuals are hateful murderous pricks, and must be judged individually. The first thing you have to do in order to judge people in large block groups of hundreds of thousands is throw out the concept of individualism and turn humanity into a hive mind.

[TheLoneliestMonk]

About the hive mind.... yeah, cops are a part of a fraternity in which no officer, even a good one, will not turn in another.  They all have to know that they have eachother's backs, and I think that is what creates this, but it's still completely fucked.  Everyone needs accountability, and there little amongst police officers.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kungtotte,

The paitience the officer displayed in Cereberus's video clip is impressive particularly in light of the fact the guy actually touched the officer.

[Vestrit]

Tormund Governmentsbane, on Jul 24 2009, 18.04, said:

I don't care if cops are pricks.  I don't care if they are rude and beligerent and nasty.  They can yell at me and call me names all day.  It's a free country and they have the freedom to be assholes.

What I care about, is when cops break the law.  When cops beat innocent people for no reason.  When cops frame innocent people for crimes they didn't commit.  When cops intimidate witnesses and destroy evidence to try to cover up their crimes.

Like I said in my post, I'm not saying the bad ones should get away with it. And I said that my hope is that they know which occasions they shouldn't cover up.

but seriously, work in that area long enough with enough fucking squirrels and I'd imagine things get grey pretty quickly

Quote

If a cop beats a woman in the face with a pistol, and the other cops try to intimidate witnesses into silence that is evil.

Agreed. But, as above, that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making was that cops will always push the envelope. The same way that most times when a doctor makes a mistake or an error of judgement they're taken aside for 'a terribly quiet chat' rather than hung out to dry. Because in every job people make mistakes, they have bad days, they let their standards down and in every job there's grey areas.

Quote

I do care if they are pricks. They don't have a right to treat us with suspicion because in America we have a right to not be treated as guilty, especially by agents of our government. The fact is, because they deal with bad parts of society, they HAVE to act better than the rest of us or we get what you see in this thread--a lot of guys who lose it and abuse their power.

Loving your idealism but it doesn't work that way. Work in any job long enough and you become tainted by it.

I was a journalist for 11 years and one of the reasons I quit was because I started to view everybody cynically and just assume they were hiding something or had some agenda to push. If I was a cop, I'd probably just assume they were lying to me.

[TheKassi]

TheLoneliestMonk, on Jul 24 2009, 12.21, said:

About the hive mind.... yeah, cops are a part of a fraternity in which no officer, even a good one, will not turn in another.  They all have to know that they have eachother's backs, and I think that is what creates this, but it's still completely fucked.  Everyone needs accountability, and there little amongst police officers.

  Thats television drama, not reality. Internal investigations exists.

Police agencies across America have started putting personal video and audio recorders on all their officers because of this kind of presumption. The sad and unfortunate truth is that many police officers are requesting these kind of measures. They actually believe they are safer from allegations with big brother watching and listening to their every movement.

  Cops are just different kinds of people. Some are willing to turn on their own, some are not. Some will stand on principle, a whole lot wont. This isn't radically different from any group. Even in less hectic work places the 'office backstabber' is universally scorned.

[Tormund Midgetsbane]

Quote

Like I said in my post, I'm not saying the bad ones should get away with it. And I said that my hope is that they know which occasions they shouldn't cover up.

The "bad ones"?  Any of them that participates in covering up crimes on behalf of the other is a "bad one".  I put the "bad one" ratio at upward of 90% based on this fact.

They should never cover anything up.  They are a part of the state, as public employees they do not have the luxury of secrecy regarding their job performance.  Their boss (me) requires full fucking disclosure.

[ants]

Vestrit, on Jul 25 2009, 05.34, said:

Agreed. But, as above, that wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making was that cops will always push the envelope. The same way that most times when a doctor makes a mistake or an error of judgement they're taken aside for 'a terribly quiet chat' rather than hung out to dry. Because in every job people make mistakes, they have bad days, they let their standards down and in every job there's grey areas.

I think the problem with this anaology is intent.  Usually for a doctor, it is an error of judgement or mistake.  Although you'll have shows like House where he's "breaking the rules", the truth is that the vast bulk of the time something goes wrong it was a mistake/error of judgement.  The doctor didn't actually break the rules by intention.

However, with cops, the ones we're talking about here, it is usually a deliberate decision to either do something illegal, or to use a tactic/approach which they know may worsen the situation for the person they're dealing with.  I'm thinking shooting dogs, using tasers, SWAT kicking the door down, skipping legal niceties.

[Maltaran]

Tormund Governmentsbane, on Jul 24 2009, 21.37, said:

They are a part of the state, as public employees they do not have the luxury of secrecy regarding their job performance. Their boss (me) requires full fucking disclosure.

All public employees? Does this include the CIA? It seems extremely arrogant to insist that you must be notified of any mistake made by any police officer anywhere in the country.

Besides, my knowledge of American policing (based exclusively on watching the Wire) shows that in some cases, cops will turn in their colleagues. Blanket generalisations do not help your argument.

[ljkeane]

Tormund Governmentsbane, on Jul 24 2009, 21.37, said:

The "bad ones"?  Any of them that participates in covering up crimes on behalf of the other is a "bad one".  I put the "bad one" ratio at upward of 90% based on this fact.

I'm pretty confident that's a massive generalisation with no facts to back it up.

Tormund Governmentsbane, on Jul 24 2009, 21.37, said:

Their boss (me) requires full fucking disclosure.

They don't work for you, they work for the government. If you have a problem with the way the Police are run write a letter to your representative in government or get elected.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

ljkeane,

Quote

They don't work for you, they work for the government. If you have a problem with the way the Police are run write a letter to your representative in government or get elected.

:o

If the government and government employees doen't work for the people what the hell is the point of the representation "We the People" at the opening of the Constitution of the U.S.?

[ljkeane]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Jul 24 2009, 22.06, said:

ljkeane,

If the government and government employees doen't work for the people what the hell is the point of the representation "We the People" at the opening of the Constitution of the U.S.?

They don't work directly for the people in the sense that individuals get to dictate how they do their jobs or that individuals are their "boss".

Edited by ljkeane, 24 July 2009 - 04:18 PM.

[TheKassi]

Ser Scot A Ellison, on Jul 24 2009, 14.06, said:

ljkeane,



:o

If the government and government employees doen't work for the people what the hell is the point of the representation "We the People" at the opening of the Constitution of the U.S.?

  It's people, not person. You are no ones boss in the government. The Cops answer to the nation, not just one guy with a bee in his bonnet.

One person making demands on a government body is silly. If that actually worked criminals would just tell cops to go away because they are their boss and pay their salary.

Reality>rhetoric.