"Under Heaven", the new Guy Gavriel Kay

[Insert Edit]

Young and beautiful female ruler who gives him the message? Not so.

I always got the impression that this was merely a desperate attempt to manipulate him - a lever she could try and use. She's ruler in name only, and has no real power herself.

[Ran]

What Insert Edit says. Gisel wasn't really interested in Crispin, she was just trying to use her wiles to get what she wanted.

As to Crispin's looks, the muscular build, strong hands, the red hair, and the beard make him good looking to Sarantine women, it seems, since they're jaded and want something exotic. Whether he was particularly good looking by our standards or by the standards of Batiara is, of course, a moot point. :)

Kay's playing around a bit with fantasy conventions here, I think. There's a whole host of books out there where female protagonists are considered beautiful because they're exotic in appearance -- with red hair being a very typical way of doing this; there's whole armies of red-haired fantasy women, enough to populate Scotland all on their own.

[gyrehead]

I always thought Crispin was perfectly suited for getting the ladies since he is the main character and Kay presents him as being intelligent, dynamic and ambitious within in his own field. Men like that get women. Women like that get men. Would it have been more believable if the women were plain? For me, Kay realistically presented Crispin as someone who would attract people of both sexes and it never felt like he was some kind of tile-laying James Bond that women just fell into bed with, but someone who stood out, not just physically, but also as something incredibly rare that did not fit into the normal noble/warrior/peasant mode. And that added even more to the fascination. Especially when his personality then backed up the unusual and often undefinable role he occupied in the setting's cultures and socieities.

I loved Under Heaven. If I had to place it somewhere I would rank it about par with A Song for Arbonne and right below Lions and the Sarantine duology. Which pretty much means it will likely rank as my favorite 2010 read; at least in genre.

[automne]

@Theodor

I didn't think that crap review deserved a direct link. BTW have you read it?

I wonder why all threads on G.G. Kay turn into the same discussions on his awsome-goodlooking-badass characters. Yes, Kay's characters are exceptional. Obviously Kay's books are not for everyone but, then that's something that can be said about any writer.

[Calibandar]

I wonder why all threads on G.G. Kay turn into the same discussions on his awsome-goodlooking-badass characters

That's an easy one. You can do a search and you will find that in almost all threads over the years it is Gigei who lists the same complaint about Kay's handsome and talented characters, and then others enter to agree or disagree with that. Personally it's never bothered me even for a second, in fact I liked it.

Anyway, as for this book, I'm unsure at this point. I'm less excited than I normally am for a Guy Kay release.

[Theodor]

@Theodor

I didn't think that crap review deserved a direct link. BTW have you read it?

Yeah, and dare you believe it, without a negative reaction. I've not been especially enthusiastic about this new book because of its shallow story synopsis, but this review at least made me feel that the book might turn out well after all.

I have also read this guys reviews for years, and he's not in the business of posting large spoilers, so when you have read the book I don't think you will find that he spoiled to much in the review. But I guess he has made better reviews, try reading the ones on the asoiaf if you dare ;).

[automne]

That's an easy one. You can do a search and you will find that in almost all threads over the years it is Gigei who lists the same complaint about Kay's handsome and talented characters

That's odd. I wonder why he/she keeps on complaining about one writer instead of posting about the ones he/she enjoys reading.

Yeah, and dare you believe it, without a negative reaction.[...] I have also read this guys reviews for years, and he's not in the business of posting large spoilers, so when you have read the book I don't think you will find that he spoiled to much in the review. But I guess he has made better reviews, try reading the ones on the asoiaf if you dare ;).

Glad to hear you had a different reaction to the review.

I doubt I'll change my mind about the review when I read the book. The spoilers really angered me and the "You do that by being willing to say as little as possible when you want to say so much" line was the last straw.

I won't read any of that person's reviews.

[Gigei]

That's odd. I wonder why he/she keeps on complaining about one writer instead of posting about the ones he/she enjoys reading.

And I've been doing that?

That's an easy one. You can do a search and you will find that in almost all threads over the years it is Gigei who lists the same complaint about Kay's handsome and talented characters, and then others enter to agree or disagree with that. Personally it's never bothered me even for a second, in fact I liked it.

Anyway, as for this book, I'm unsure at this point. I'm less excited than I normally am for a Guy Kay release.

That's not even remotely true. I find this accusation offensive.

The super awesome character is a trademark of Kay and there are many other posters who have said the same thing, mostly before I say anything at all.

koolkat735, Lord O' Bones, Ran, Chataya de Venoge, williamjm, automne and Stalker talking about the awesomeness of the characters before I even post.

Um, yeah. That is a bit hard to swallow. Every main character is the awesomest awsomer that ever awesomed.

Not my quote, and written before I posted.

The third freaking post (not by me):

His characters tend to be very charismatic, witty, intelligent and beautiful - all of them - which can be slightly annoying though.

not just the Stuness, but also the gimmicks of not revealing what is happening that is another major complaint:

So I tried Lions again. But unfortunately, here my opinion has not changed. In Lions, much more than in any other of his books, Kay is manipulating the reader. Not once but several times entire sequences are constructed so as to artificially play with the reader's emotions by holding back information the characters themselves do have. Also, here the excellence and wonderfulness of the characters that is just kept within believable bounds in the other books is over the top, no longer believable to me.

and other such posts. They even call it chick lit. :P

I am not even in this thread yet people are still posting about the same old thing.

First, my general complaint about Kay nowadays is that all his characters run together. It seems like all of the main characters in his books are super-smart, very witty and more often than not very attractive. They're all just too damn perfect a lot of the time.

cyr,

kay uses the same old shit at the ending - he will pontificate about the awesomeness and greatness and scale and use every possible adjective/adverb on the planet BEFORE revealing the real ending in the last couple of sentences.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/32638-the-fionavar-tapestry/

People calling it melodramatic, chick lit, Mary Sueish, etc. I don't even post in it since I haven't read Fionavar.

Feel free to post "almost all threads over the years" where I am the one who "lists the same complaint about Kay's handsome and talented characters."

[Calibandar]

Sorry, don't have the time nor the inclination to do so. I do know that over the many Kay threads over the years the discussion of how a few people don't like Kay's clever characters, you're almost always in it and complaining about it. Just something that stuck with me.

[Angalin]

To each his or her own; let's leave it at that, please.

[automne]

And I've been doing that?

Sorry Gigei, I didn't mean my comment to be offensive. And yes I should have searched your posts.

[Gigei]

Sorry, don't have the time nor the inclination to do so.

So you just pulled that comment out of thin air?

I do know that over the many Kay threads over the years the discussion of how a few people don't like Kay's clever characters, you're almost always in it and complaining about it.

You don't know any such thing because I have never even complained about cleverness or clever characters.

Just something that stuck with me.

Whatever. I've never even complained about clever characters or awesome characters since that was never my complaint.

[pat5150]

Well, just returned from Southeast Asia and discovered that I have an Under Heaven ARC in the huge pile of mail when I got back home! :D After a mindfuck of a transit that included three flights and took a total of 32 hours, this was wonderful news indeed!

Patrick

[pat5150]

Pat, did I mention how much Darling and I really enjoyed meeting you in Montreal? Did I not sell tickets for your children's literacy charity??

Can I offer you a place to stay if you decide to come to Dragon*Con???

Awww, you're just saying that to entice me to lend you the new Kay book before its pub date. ;)

Still, if you agree to wear the black latex suit, I probably couldn't find it in my heart to say no! :P Then again, I do remember that your beau is really into firearms. Hmmmm. . .

But I still have an acquaintance or two in Atlanta, so perhaps I should look a little more into this. . .

Patrick

[Calibandar]

First chapter here:

http://www.guygavrielkay.ca/

[pat5150]

About 400 pages into it, and so far Under Heaven is certainly one of Kay's best novels. On par with Tigana and The Lions of Al-Rassan, with the potential of surpassing both if the book lives up to its potential. :D

Patrick

[Calibandar]

Hey Pat,

Some of the advance word makes mention of a supernatural element here as well, a spirit world or such. Could you say something about what the supernatural element is in this novel?

[Ran]

The first chapter makes it pretty explicit.

There are ghostly voices in the night, haunting the battlefield, and as the protagonist buries the remains, one by one the voices grow silent.

Whether it goes beyond that, I'm not sure.

[pat5150]

It is as Ran pointed out. . .

As far as whether it goes beyond that, no spoilers... :)

Patrick

[pat5150]

Just finished Under Heaven. . . And I have a feeling that it's the fantasy book of the year. :thumbsup:

It's been too long since I've read Tigana for me to judge properly, yet Under Heaven could well be Kay's best novel to date. It is on par with Tigana, at the very least, and a step above The Lions of Al-Rassan.

This is Guy Gavriel Kay at the top of his game.

Patrick