124 replies to this topic

[Tikva]

Roza Ahai, on Aug 12 2009, 00.43, said:

Thank you for summary! If CH is Bloodraven, should not Bran and Co. notice that CH is one eyed?

I think it's because his face is hidden.

Quote

"Show us your face," Meera demands.

[goshi]

It bothers me that Bran is accusing Coldhands of being a monster, and knowing how whiney Bran gets about things, I'm thinking he will end up refusing to go farther until an identity is revealed. Probably the very next chapter...... :)

[Jaqen Fett]

Frst off, great chapter. Thanks for the summary. This Bran chapter has raised my hopes for ADWD.

Does anyone know if this chapter mentioned CH's eyes? Are they blue like the wights created by the Others? If so, the only way we are positive that wights can be created are by being killed by the Others. Since CH has the black hands, we could assume that he is a wight who has somehow retained what seems to be an ability for abstract thought/free will. This could raise some interesting possibilities. Here are just a few potential explanations. Please feel free to shoot down any of these as there is absolutely no evidence for any of the following:

1. If CH is Bloodraven, he could have escaped the typical wight (zombie-like) fate through some mystical ability of his and then hooked up w/ the 3EC after reanimation.

2. If CH is Benjen, the 3EC could have taken an interest in him and bent him to his/her will and sent him to help Bran. The timeline could work: Benjen was right around the time Bran was crippled (and the 3EC took an interest in him). Right around the same time the 3EC could have assumed dominion over dead Benjen

3. It would be really cool is somehow the 3EC or CH was the Great Other. Since the Others have always been presented as an purely evil force, I could see GRRM tweaking this one-dimensional view (nothing is ever black or white in these novels) and showing that the Others are somehow necessary to maintain balance in the world (with the other side of the spectrum being Mel's R'hollor (sp?)).

4. The 3EC could be a warg of the Children and Bran is being recruited by the Children to help them in some way (he does have blood of the First Men in him and worships the same gods). For instance, the Children could be preparing for the imminent threat of the Others or the Children.

I know these idea are going way overboard w/ speculation but it would be cool to get a glimpse into the intentions/background of the Others or Children through the 3EC and Bran's interaction with it.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Trying to make the Others "not evil" would be a horrible a idea.  All great stories need a great villain.  I mean it's okay to give the villain some personality, but in the end you still need a villain.

[Harry the Heir]

Roza Ahai, on Aug 11 2009, 18.43, said:

Thank you for summary! If CH is Bloodraven, should not Bran and Co. notice that CH is one eyed?

Not necessarily. Not only has his face been covered and hooded this entire time, they'd more likely be concerned by things like, say, the fact that he's a walking corpse who neither sleeps, eats, nor breathes.

[Angalin]

Re: Coldhands having one eye like Bloodraven or not - IIRC, the way Sam describes him, he has two eyes.

[Roza Ahai]

Former Gov. Sarah L. Palin, on Aug 11 2009, 21.20, said:

Not necessarily. Not only has his face been covered and hooded this entire time, they'd more likely be concerned by things like, say, the fact that he's a walking corpse who neither sleeps, eats, nor breathes.

He does not sleep, eat and breath, but he sees. I don't think that scarf covers his eyes.

[Harry the Heir]

Angalin, on Aug 11 2009, 22.20, said:

Re: Coldhands having one eye like Bloodraven or not - IIRC, the way Sam describes him, he has two eyes.

Do you have the quote? Because I'm pretty sure that he never does.

Roza:

It doesn't have to cover the eyes like the blindfold, so long as the hood of the cloak shields them from the light.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Jaqen Fett, on Aug 11 2009, 21.04, said:

2. If CH is Benjen, the 3EC could have taken an interest in him and bent him to his/her will and sent him to help Bran. The timeline could work: Benjen was right around the time Bran was crippled (and the 3EC took an interest in him). Right around the same time the 3EC could have assumed dominion over dead Benjen

While your speculation is interesting, this is a problem.

Benjen didn't go out on his ranging until after returning from Winterfell with Jon in the early parts of AGoT.  Bran fell and was crippled before Jon and Benjen left Winterfell.

So, the 3EC would have had to take an interest in Benjen before he left the Wall.

I'm not sure of the timeline of how Benjen's ranging compares with Bran waking up, but I believe that Benjen was lost before Jon received that news on the Wall.  But since presumably the 3EC was talking to Bran the whole time he was in a coma, there's no way this would sync up properly.

[MaesterLuwin]

Former Gov. Sarah L. Palin, on Aug 11 2009, 23.42, said:

Do you have the quote? Because I'm pretty sure that he never does.

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Does anyone know if this chapter mentioned CH's eyes? Are they blue like the wights created by the Others?

Don't have my books with me right now, but I believe Sam says something in SoS like "I don't think Coldhands is a wight, because wights have blue eyes."

This doesn't mean that Coldhands doesn't have just one eye, but you'd think Sam would have mentioned it?

[Harry the Heir]

MaesterLuwin, on Aug 12 2009, 00.27, said:

This doesn't mean that Coldhands doesn't have just one eye, but you'd think Sam would have mentioned it?

People have said this before, and I think Sam (and Bran) will fail to mention any detail that will give the game away before it's time to make the reveal. Dany's POV didn't inform the reader that she was planning on capturing Astapor until the dramatic moment was right, so I'm sure that Sam could easily have overlooked what's really an unremarkable detail about Coldhands compared to the sorcery and the whole walking corpse thing.

[Roza Ahai]

Sam had a fight with a wight. He knows that wights have blue eyes. If he says that CH does not have glimmering blue eyes, that would mean he saw Coldhands' eyes. I doubt that Sam oberlooked that because he pays attention to details. He was the first from all NWmen who noticed that wights' corpses don't have fresh blood.

[Harry the Heir]

Roza Ahai, on Aug 12 2009, 00.45, said:

If he says that CH does not have glimmering blue eyes, that would mean he saw Coldhands' eyes.

Well, not necessarily. The eyes of a wight shine bright blue. If Sam couldn't see Coldhands' eyes because they were shrouded by a cloak, that would be a good sign that he doesn't have the eyes of a wight.

Besides, the issue here is not what Sam saw, but what he felt was worthy of comment, which is a different matter altogether. Sam obviously cares that Coldhands isn't a traditional wight, but why would he care about how many eyes Coldhands has?

[El-ahrairah]

Finally! Bran turns cannibal, Coldhands starts to seem even more fishy, and Jojen still says it's not the day he dies.

My appetite for the book is now greatly whetted.

[Bronn Stone]

I cannot imagine a reasonable scenario that GRRM could concoct wherein Coldhands was now revealed to have the glowing blue eyes of a wight that somehow Samwell failed to notice, despite his assertion to the contrary.  

Coldhands could have normal blue eyes - he could have all sorts of eyes, but since Samwell seemed certain that he did NOT have the eyes of a wight, any later revelation that he did somehow have them would be a betrayal of the trust between author and reader.  With the POV structure, we expect certain convolutions of thought (see Eddard re: Jon) so that the author is not forced to reveal major secrets when the likelihood is that the character would have REALLY thought out the whole scenario.  But when a reliable witness involved in an internal dialog (with no reason to lie to himself) says that the eyes aren't those of a wight, then we have to be able to safely assume that this is a fact.  Anything else would lead to the conclusion that there are no reliable witnesses - in fact, no witnesses even remotely reliable.  If GRRM went down that path, we could no longer believe that the sun shines or the wind blows.

Sam saw enough of the eyes to think to himself that they weren't like those of the wights he'd seen.  No other scenario fits the existing evidence.

This does not preclude that he is some altered form of wight that lost the glowing blue eyes.

[Angalin]

MaesterLuwin, on Aug 11 2009, 23.27, said:

Don't have my books with me right now, but I believe Sam says something in SoS like "I don't think Coldhands is a wight, because wights have blue eyes."

Former Gov/HtH, I think this was the line I had in mind.  If I get a chance, I'll look it up properly.

[Roza Ahai]

Former Gov. Sarah L. Palin, on Aug 11 2009, 23.56, said:

Well, not necessarily. The eyes of a wight shine bright blue. If Sam couldn't see Coldhands' eyes because they were shrouded by a cloak, that would be a good sign that he doesn't have the eyes of a wight.

Sam thought that CH is not a traditional wight because he does not have shining blue eyes. He needed to see his eyes to come to this conclusion, that his eyes are not wights' eyes.

Former Gov. Sarah L. Palin, on Aug 11 2009, 23.56, said:

Sam obviously cares that Coldhands isn't a traditional wight, but why would he care about how many eyes Coldhands has?

Because he never met wights who saved human's lives. He would pay attention to each detail.

[Mezeh]

Sam thought that CH is not a traditional wight because CH talked. None of “traditional wights” has any words left. None of them ride an elk either. There was no mention of CH eyes or face – only hands.  
Not showing face may have a very simple reason – not to scare Bran and his companions. CH may be dead for a very long time and his face may have very unpleasant looks, remember Uncat? Bran realized that CH is dead but not immediately – now they have no other choice but to go with monster but would they go with a monster while they still were on the Wall?

[Ran]

All Sam says is that Coldhands doesn't have blue eyes. It's a fair point that, having been able to see his eyes, you'd think he'd notice if he had just the one (if he were Bloodraven). But I suppose it's not conclusive.

[Harry the Heir]

Bronn Stone, on Aug 12 2009, 01.18, said:

I cannot imagine a reasonable scenario that GRRM could concoct wherein Coldhands was now revealed to have the glowing blue eyes of a wight that somehow Samwell failed to notice, despite his assertion to the contrary.

Bronn, who are you arguing with? I don't know anybody who said that Coldhands has glowing blue eyes.

Roza:

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Sam thought that CH is not a traditional wight because he does not have shining blue eyes. He needed to see his eyes to come to this conclusion, that his eyes are not wights' eyes.

That's ridiculous. You might as well say that Sam needs to inspect CH's fingernails to make sure that his hands aren't on fire. If Coldhands had bright, shining blue eyes, then Sam would see that no matter how enshrouded CH's face was. If Sam looks straight at CH's enshrouded face and sees nothing but shadow, then he can be pretty sure that CH does not have bright shining blue eyes.

And again, the important thing is not what Sam notices (which we don't know), but what Sam chooses to report to Bran. The lack of an eye is a quotidian detail: lots of people in Westeros have lost eyes in combat. It signifies very little, and isn't really pertinent to what Bran needs to know, i.e., is this undead thing going to help me or eat me?

Edited by Former Gov. Sarah L. Palin, 12 August 2009 - 01:20 AM.