146 replies to this topic

[moirne]

3idcrow, on Aug 22 2009, 02.30, said:

Except Renly, who needed a heir to secure his claim. And why wouldn't Margaery be ready to have sex? Even Loras would be like: "OK, if my man is the king and has to sleep with someone let it be my sister" All win.

Well, Margaery was pretty young when she married him. That's reason enough to not want sex. She and Olenna are very cunning, and don't you find it odd that she was married to a gay man, a murdered teen, and now a little boy? Yes it's all strategic, but these unions haven't been sexual. Does anyone know approximately how long Margaery was married to Renly? A few months? That would be enough time for her to conceive a child if she did sleep with him. Margaery was initially intended for King Robert, which shows me that Renly wanted Loras' family raised up, but obviously had no interest in Margaery for himself.

There's a lot of possibilities really and we can only hope that GRRM will reveal the truth eventually.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

ooh i like the nonbedding conspiracy - clearly olenna means for her to marry Dany

[Brude]

I think they were married for about a fortnight, probably no more than a month (it might say specifically), but basically they got married while the armies of The Reach and Storm Lands were gathering at Highgarden, then Renly took a very leisurely march up the Rose Road with his army, stopping at every holdfast along the way, feasting and holding tourneys and such at almost every stop.  He got as far as Bitterbridge, about halfway between Highgarden and King's Landing.

[Werthead]

Something else I'm pondering is did Cersei use the horse-riding excuse herself, since she was quite obviously not a virgin when she came to Robert's bed the first time? Of course, it might not have come up, since Robert was drunk and thinking of Lyanna at the time anyway.

If she did, that would be quite ironic.

[Brude]

Werthead, on Aug 22 2009, 15.24, said:

Something else I'm pondering is did Cersei use the horse-riding excuse herself, since she was quite obviously not a virgin when she came to Robert's bed the first time? Of course, it might not have come up, since Robert was drunk and thinking of Lyanna at the time anyway.

I doubt she had to since Robert was such a drunk.  Maybe she even gave herself a little cut somewhere to bloody the bed.  Again, not hard to do when your husband is lying passed out in a drunken stupor.

[3idcrow]

moirne, on Aug 22 2009, 00.54, said:

Well, Margaery was pretty young when she married him. That's reason enough to not want sex. She and Olenna are very cunning, and don't you find it odd that she was married to a gay man, a murdered teen, and now a little boy?

In all three cases she was married to a king, first and foremost. Tyrells wanted her to marry a king, starting with Robert. The only exception was Joff, of course. They realized a very serious potential trouble of being married to a sadistic psycho and had to act accordingly. Margaery had to be a part of this conspiracy, she drunk from the same cup after all. But this is a different story.

  As far as her readiness for sex goes I think we have to keep in mind cultural differences between our world and Westeros. Physically she was ready, no doubt. Emotional readiness comes from the social environment. When a girl is raised with “old enough to bleed – old enough to breed” sentiment, when she sees her friends, cousins, whoever married at 12 and having children she can be ready for sex herself.  Surely we all remember infallible argument “everybody is doing it”? Our children use it as often as we did. Also, being a mother to the heir is an honor and she might want it as well.

  Of course, all we can is speculate. Maybe in the next book we’ll learn that she couldn’t stand men on a general principle and enjoyed the company of Lady Taena… :smileysex:

[moirne]

3idcrow, on Aug 22 2009, 16.03, said:

Of course, all we can is speculate. Maybe in the next book we’ll learn that she couldn’t stand men on a general principle and enjoyed the company of Lady Taena… :smileysex:

lol that's kind of what I was thinking.

[Ser Greguh]

Regarding Margaery's seeking out moon tea, there's a point in AFFC where Cersei thinks to herself that women only seek out moon tea for one reason.  She might be mistaken, but I tend to give her deference when it comes to reproductive matters.

That doesn't dissuade my opinion that Margaery has never, in fact, been "unhorsed", so to speak, because I think there is a distinct probability that she sought it out not for any direct purpose, but instead because Oleanna knew that Pycelle (a Lannister creature through and through) would testify as such, which in turn would instigate Cersei into making her move before any variables changed (which could be of particular relevance should the reports of Loras's maiming turn out to be exaggerated).

Even if she really had been having sex, why would she go to of all people Grand Maester Pycelle, and why would she go herself?  There have to be a dozen places she could seek it out, and a dozen trusted maids she could send in her stead.  Margaery (via Oleanna) has to have at least suspected that Pycelle's true loyalty is to the Lannisters, as Tyrion did in ACOK, and as such seeking out Moon Tea from him seems incalculably reckless and stupid.

Unless, of course, they knew that Cersei was trying to pin adultery charges on Margaery (Taena Merryweather, a probable Tyrell informant, met with Cersei immediately after Osney Kettleblack did, and Osney's advances were anything but subtle), and predicted that the High Septon would do just what he did when he strolled up to Baelor's Sept to announce quite cheerfully that he's had himself some sex with Queen Margaery.  Maybe they fake a story about how Loras was maimed storming Dragonstone to remove the possibility of Cersei using him for her defense in trial by combat, and use that limited window of opportunity to provoke Cersei into making her move.

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

I'm inclined to believe that Margaery was sleeping with someone (other than Renly), not necessarily due to any powerful evidence, but due to Martin's love of characters with more than one side to them. Margaery is by all accounts intelligent, kind, well-meaning and loyal, but it would be very GRRM to have such a character be seduced, essentially betraying her family and putting herself at risk.

As to the lover, i couldn't say who it is.

[the silent speaker]

When, though? We have Osney to tell us not only that he never got anywhere with her, but nobody else did when he was around, either. And Osney spent a lot of time with Margaery.

[Ecchi-Oni]

Hmm... Couldn't she just dildo herself out of virginity?

[Knight o' Pansies]

First, I wanted to say I love the choice of language some people have made here.

Now for the main course: Cersei is, as we all know, rather assumptive about many things she says, and her views are really askew because of her own batshit-craziness.

Consider the cultural associations of certain things. Take hemp for example. When you mention it in most western society I'm sure the foremost association is with drugs, but it has so may other uses. The drug is just the most notorious and thus "attractive" for people to remember first. People love tabloid humor.

Now take this tansy thing- I haven't really read what it's supposed to do(abortionist, some mentioned pain-releaver for cramps), but if we take all of these qualities combined then "abortionist" stands out.

Or if you don't like the "notoriety" explenation, there's still the fact that some things are used/famous mainly for one effect, but can do other things as well.
Tansy's abortionist properties could very well be the most popular of these effects for the Westrosi.

And again I'd like to remind everyone how Cersei's "mind" works. You really can't trust her to tell anything straight.

ETA: Another substance I wanted to mention is oil. Most people think about it only in context with gas/petrol/whatever-you-name-it for cars, but it's no secret that it's essential for so much more, plastics for example.

Edited by Knight o' Pansies, 28 August 2009 - 03:46 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Ser Greguh, on Aug 26 2009, 19.11, said:

Regarding Margaery's seeking out moon tea, there's a point in AFFC where Cersei thinks to herself that women only seek out moon tea for one reason.  She might be mistaken, but I tend to give her deference when it comes to reproductive matters.

That doesn't dissuade my opinion that Margaery has never, in fact, been "unhorsed", so to speak, because I think there is a distinct probability that she sought it out not for any direct purpose, but instead because Oleanna knew that Pycelle (a Lannister creature through and through) would testify as such, which in turn would instigate Cersei into making her move before any variables changed (which could be of particular relevance should the reports of Loras's maiming turn out to be exaggerated).

Even if she really had been having sex, why would she go to of all people Grand Maester Pycelle, and why would she go herself?  There have to be a dozen places she could seek it out, and a dozen trusted maids she could send in her stead.  Margaery (via Oleanna) has to have at least suspected that Pycelle's true loyalty is to the Lannisters, as Tyrion did in ACOK, and as such seeking out Moon Tea from him seems incalculably reckless and stupid.

Unless, of course, they knew that Cersei was trying to pin adultery charges on Margaery (Taena Merryweather, a probable Tyrell informant, met with Cersei immediately after Osney Kettleblack did, and Osney's advances were anything but subtle), and predicted that the High Septon would do just what he did when he strolled up to Baelor's Sept to announce quite cheerfully that he's had himself some sex with Queen Margaery.  Maybe they fake a story about how Loras was maimed storming Dragonstone to remove the possibility of Cersei using him for her defense in trial by combat, and use that limited window of opportunity to provoke Cersei into making her move.

http://en.wikipedia...._abortifacients

If you click on tansy there, it has more usages in real life than just abortion - maybe Margaery has joint pain.

[Robb's Head]

Jurble, on Aug 30 2009, 11.48, said:

http://en.wikipedia...._abortifacients

If you click on tansy there, it has more usages in real life than just abortion - maybe Margaery has joint pain.

yes.  joint pain.  from riding...horses.  Stallions, as it were.

In re: Oil, and its uses...
Perhaps Loras was only doused by plastic cups!  its all a Tyrell ruse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Vercint]

It is possible that Margaery was getting moon tea from Pycelle on behalf of one of her companions. One of them might be sleeping with some knight or another -- I think Cersei and Lady Merriweather mentions that one of them is hot for Ser Tallad at some point -- and since they are also supposed to be maids, a pregnancy would be embarrasing for them too, if not as bad as for Margaery.

Margaery may or may not be a virgin herself (I tend to think she slept with Renly -- even though he's gay, as king he needs a heir, and Margeary looks a lot like Loras), but she might just be acting the helpful friend. Though it seems stupid to ask Pycelle, who is a Lannister creature, when she must have other maesters available.

[Vrouwe Walchsteen]

And that's why I doubt she was asking him for moon tea for herself or a member of her entourage... she seems like a smart girl so why would she be so stupid? I think there are 2 theories I like about this (not sure who mentioned them though, but you're brilliant anyway). One is that Margaery is asking for moon tea because she knows Pycelle is a Lannister loyalist and will tell Cersei about it. The moment Cersei hears this she believes she's got "proof" that Margaery is sleeping around and she gets really reckless, which eventually leads to her being imprisoned by the HS herself.
The other theory is that Margaery asks for moon tea for Cersei. She obviously does sleep around and the Tyrells probably don't want her to have any more children, so they may do this just to be certain?

[Ser Greguh]

Jurble, on Aug 30 2009, 10.48, said:

http://en.wikipedia...._abortifacients

If you click on tansy there, it has more usages in real life than just abortion - maybe Margaery has joint pain.

Something being true on Earth doesn't make it true in Westeros.  I'm pretty sure we don't have any fire-breathing dragons, valyrian steel blades, 700 foot tall ice walls, or undead creatures north of it on earth, so I don't see why the chemical properties of a plant need necessarily translate on a 1:1 ratio, either.

I'll take Cersei's word over wikipedia's any day when it comes to how not to have kids in the Seven Kingdoms.

Edited by Ser Greguh, 30 August 2009 - 02:55 PM.

[Mad Monkey]

Quote

Cersei hears this she believes she's got "proof" that Margaery is sleeping around and she gets really reckless, which eventually leads to her being imprisoned by the HS herself.

That's a terrible plan on Margaery's part. Yeah, she'll bring down Cersei, but she'll be killed in the process. Even if she has a plan to escape, it still might not work. I mean, it's not a bad plan for a little girl, but it's still not LF-quality.

Quote

Something being true on Earth doesn't make it true in Westeros. I'm pretty sure we don't have any fire-breathing dragons, valyrian steel blades, 700 foot tall ice walls, or undead creatures north of it on earth, so I don't see why the chemical properties of a plant need necessarily translate on a 1:1 ratio, either.

That's hardly the same thing. Tansy is something that really exists. Comparing it to something that for our purposes only exists within the ASOIAF world doesn't really work. It's like saying we shouldn't assume that "swords" in ASOIAF are the sharp, pointy weapons they are in real life. Cersei believes a lot of things that are not true, and while I agree with you that she is right about the tansy tea, her word alone in this matter isn't enough to convince me. After all, she also believes that Kevan is plotting with the Tyrells, that she herself is a great queen, and that things that you force someone to say represent their true feelings. The other references to Tansy tea, such as with Lady Lysa and Hoster Tully, are more plausible than Cersei's fantasies.

Edited by Mad Monkey, 30 August 2009 - 03:18 PM.

[the average Other]

Ser Greguh, on Aug 30 2009, 22.53, said:

Something being true on Earth doesn't make it true in Westeros.  I'm pretty sure we don't have any fire-breathing dragons, valyrian steel blades, 700 foot tall ice walls, or undead creatures north of it on earth, so I don't see why the chemical properties of a plant need necessarily translate on a 1:1 ratio, either.

I'll take Cersei's word over wikipedia's any day when it comes to how not to have kids in the Seven Kingdoms.

And tansy isn't even the only ingredient that goes in moon tea. I'm not even sure we know all of them. However, since nobody in the series has mentioned any other use for moon tea than aborting unwanted babies I'm going to take Cersei's word for it and assume that, whatever moon tea really is, it has no other use.

[Ser Greguh]

Mad Monkey, on Aug 30 2009, 15.14, said:

That's hardly the same thing. Tansy is something that really exists. Comparing it to something that for our purposes only exists within the ASOIAF world doesn't really work. It's like saying we shouldn't assume that "swords" in ASOIAF are the sharp, pointy weapons they are in real life. Cersei believes a lot of things that are not true, and while I agree with you that she is right about the tansy tea, her word alone in this matter isn't enough to convince me. After all, she also believes that Kevan is plotting with the Tyrells, that she herself is a great queen, and that things that you force someone to say represent their true feelings. The other references to Tansy tea, such as with Lady Lysa and Hoster Tully, are more plausible than Cersei's fantasies.

Martin has countless of examples in the books where he takes things that actually exist and reformats them to have the properties that he needs to tell his stories.  By your logic:

1) Winter exists in Westeros
2) Winter exists on earth
3) Winters on earth exist for roughly 3 months
4) Therefore, winters on Westeros exist for rougly 3 months

Genetics is another good example.  Martin takes a basic concept (children tend to inherit traits of their parents, with some parents' traits being dominant), and blasts them off into outer space with family trees and character traits that simply cannot be explained in a Mendelian model.

More to the point, even if tansy in westeros == tansy on earth, it does not necessarily follow that the Westerosi denizens would know of any of its additional properties or would use it for anything other than an abortifacient.

And, as has been pointed out, tansy is but one of apparently many ingredients in Moon Tea.  Lysa lists mint, wormwood, honey, and pennyroyal as other ingredients.