The Great Hunt

[fionwe1987]

In part, perhaps, but then Rand also made this mistake re: Aiel and Lan, his other inspirations for hardness. Rand is just prone to taking the surface for the essence.

Oh sure. But, Moiraine was the single greatest influence for his hardness, and she should have had the wit to see it coming. Be the mentor of a shepherd as he transforms into the single most powerful person the world has seen in three thousand years, and you're going to get the shepherd try to copy you. Do you want the savior of mankind to be cold, merciless and mistrustful of everyone?

Sure, Rand is at fault too for not placing some trust in Moiraine and allowing her to open up to him. But Moiraine should have known that Rand's distrust was to be expected, and unlike Egwene, he has no reason to want to like her.

For instance, he saw ample proofs that Moiraine had a true confidant in Lan, one who wasn't afraid to argue with her and stand up to her, but he didn't try to emulate _that_ aspect of her persona.

He did. :D Who was the one person you can say he trusted? Lan. And that's still true. Even as late as WH and KoD, Rand is shown listening to Lan with a lot more respect. But Lan was absent when Rand needed a confidant the most, and now, it is impossible for Rand to completely open up to Lan.

So, enter Cadsuane, who behaves in such a way that Rand has no choice but to trust her. He still doesn't make full use of her talents though.

Likewise, he never sought to really understand the Aiel. And the whole "Egwene is becoming an Aes Sedai/Wise One and will betray me to them" nonsense was just that. Never once has he actually done that, but her adoptng some of their mannerisms was enough for him.

Oh yes. But I can see where he is coming from. Egwene's swift adjustment to any of her surroundings always unsettles him, and it makes him distrust her because those nw surroundings are usually trcherous to Rand (or so he believes).

That's what I thought. There are any number of people who Rand probably should trust, but I don't think Egwene ought to be on that list. I haven't read the later books in the series for a while, but I thought it was pretty clear from Egwene's POVs that her priorities were very different from Rand's, and I think it's pretty clear which set of priorities come first in her mind. I actually suspect that some sort of conflict between Rand and the tower (once Egwene gets control of it) is going to be a feature of one of the forthcoming books. Isn't there even a prophecy about Rand kneeling to the Amerylin?

Egwene said no such thing! She was happy when the Tower split, and told Moiraine that was so because now the Tower would not be able to interfere with Rand. And she stated straight out that she supports the Rebellion because that should keep Elaida and the AS out of Rand's hair.

There is no prophesy that Rand will bend to the Amyrlin. Only one that says he will know her anger. That could mean she is angry with him, or that she is angry about something and tells him about it.

As for a conflict between Rand and Egwene, it is coming alright, but I'm very unsure if Egwene is going to be the cause.

[fionwe1987]

:bs:

Its not control of her feelings, or lack thereof that makes her so objectionable - she feels those feelings because she is a cunt.

And she does not express those feelings most of the time because...? Are you saying she's a bitch inside but doesn't show that side to her husband (or anyone else)? Because that isn't bitchiness. I've thought I want to kill you a load of times in this thread. :P Doesn't make me a murderer.

And double :bs: :bs: on the smelling her feelings issue - you would have to be braindead to not understand how she feels by how she acts. Going to bed with a long unsexy nightgown? Being so frosty her snot has icicled?

Oh yeah, you're right. She wore an unsexy nightgown! Such a horrible crime. :rolleyes:

Because I am a masochist, pray tell, what is so bad about Perrin that one would have to be a saint to put up with him? He is the stealth garysue - he is every woman's dream. A kind, gentle, honorable, devoted, responsible and not to mention built like a god. And he talks with wolves. And you could proudly bring him home to meet the family and know he would wow their socks off.

And the man refuses to let you do stuff that you've been trained to do. Expects you to not save his life, never expresses his honest anger at you and instead represses it, expresses his anger to another woman, but most of the time behaves guilty and ashamed around her.

Faile is a trained fighter, is good at the game of houses, and has seen her brothers die fighting the Shadow. Perrin knows these things, and also that she is no stranger to danger and adventure. She told him straight out she ran away from home because her dad was not letting her have fun, and that she hated being kept safe. And what does Perrin do from the moment her proposes to her? Exactly the things she hated about her former life!

[The Real Will]

Oh yeah, you're right. She wore an unsexy nightgown! Such a horrible crime. :rolleyes:

Oh stop it. You're obviously more well versed in a lot of the story than most of us (or at least you've read it more recently). But this... The point of the long nightgown is made abundantly clear in the scene it appears in. It's not subtle, it's not some hidden mystery to be deciphered, it's not something you could read one way or another depending on your point of view. She wears it to make it clear to Perrin that his sexual advances are unwelcome at that time. Whether there's anything wrong with that approach is open to debate, but you can't claim that Ro's bitching about an aesthetic decision involving clothing, or that Faile was doing it because it was cold. Personally I think the approach was passive aggressive and a little childish. Perrin and Faile (both of them) are the poster children for head-butting, non-communicating, over-angsty silliness. Perrin for all the reasons that have already been mentioned, and Faile because she apparently expects a parochial blacksmith from Andor to behave exactly like the nobility of Saldaea, and gets all pissy at him when he doesn't magically conform to her culture.

[Guest Ro_]

Nah, dude/dudette is so off in bizzarro world that I am going to do as my President commanded and ignore fox/fionwenews, in all its forms. :P

Oh, I just finished a re-read and am spot re-reading to look up some stuff I was wondering about. I make this my 59th re-read since the series started, but there have been re-reads of individual books as well and I did not count them. I rollplayed at Dragonmount, and was forced to submit proof for the aspects of the char I developed. I won a triva contest at dragoncon. I am embarassed at how well I know the series. My previous arguing was more of a stunned disbelief coupled with irritation that someone could be so very incorrect. But...this is frickin WoT. Its not like its going to cure cancer or anything. :P

[fionwe1987]

Oh stop it. You're obviously more well versed in a lot of the story than most of us (or at least you've read it more recently). But this... The point of the long nightgown is made abundantly clear in the scene it appears in. It's not subtle, it's not some hidden mystery to be deciphered, it's not something you could read one way or another depending on your point of view. She wears it to make it clear to Perrin that his sexual advances are unwelcome at that time. Whether there's anything wrong with that approach is open to debate, but you can't claim that Ro's bitching about an aesthetic decision involving clothing, or that Faile was doing it because it was cold. Personally I think the approach was passive aggressive and a little childish. Perrin and Faile (both of them) are the poster children for head-butting, non-communicating, over-angsty silliness. Perrin for all the reasons that have already been mentioned, and Faile because she apparently expects a parochial blacksmith from Andor to behave exactly like the nobility of Saldaea, and gets all pissy at him when he doesn't magically conform to her culture.

I'm not claiming that the point of Faile's nightgown is not clear. My point was not that Faile was never nitchy, it was that most of that feeling among the readers is because of what Perrin smells, not what Faile does. Giving one instance of Faile showing her (IIRC justifiable) anger is hardly a counter argument.

And I was more sarcastic than I would usually be because the OP has made it a habit to cover up her lack of good points with personal insults. Sorry if that bugged you. :)

[Guest Ro_]

ahhh, found it:

In one motion Perrin drew and fired. The ravens screamed warning, and Slayer spun to take the broadhead shaft in his chest, but not through the heart. The man howled, clutching the arrow with both hands; black feathers rained down as the ravens beat their wings in a frenzy. And Slayer faded, him and his cry together, growing misty, transparent, vanishing.

Just the same as when Birgette shot Mogedean, but I highly doubt Mog was in TAR in the flesh. It seems to be Isam's face showing in TAR and Luc IRL. I do hope we learn how he was changed.

[Guest Ro_]

Regarding Fain:

He laughed so hard he nearly fell out of the oak before he realized that he was not holding on with both hands, that one gripped his belt where a dagger should have hung. The laugh twisted into a snarl as he stared at that hand. The White Tower held what had been stolen from him. What was his by right as old as the Trolloc Wars.

He let himself drop to the ground, and scrambled onto his horse before looking at his companions. His hounds. The thirty or so Whitecloaks remaining no longer wore their white cloaks, of course. Rust spotted their dull plate-and-mail, and Bornhald would never have recognized those sullen, suspicious faces, dirty and unshaven. The humans watched Ordeith, distrustful yet afraid, not even glancing at the Myrddraal in their midst, its slug-pale, eyeless face as bleakly wooden as theirs.

The Halfman feared Isam would find it; Isam had not at all been pleased when that raid on Taren Ferry let so many escape to carry away word of what was happening in the Two Rivers. Ordeith giggled at the thought of Isam discomforted. The man was a problem for another time, if he still lived.

“We ride for Tar Valon,†he snapped. Hard riding, to beat Bornhald to the ferry. Manetheren’s banner, raised again in the Two Rivers after all these centuries. How the Red Eagle had harried him, so long ago.

Fain later gains the dagger in TV, but has corrupted people without needing anything other than his precence.

[Lightning Lord]

As well as the fact that they're a lot of Darkfriends and people who want to kill him. Or worse. And one wrong move could cost the World.

The last thing he wants is to be in that box again. And I don't blame him.

That whole situation still makes my heart race. I am on the claustrophobic side and if I start to imagine what it would be like to be doubled up inside a box... You could put me in one, but the person who came out again would have only a physical resemblance to me. As a means of horrific treatment, this one really resonated with me and every time I read it I just think "Nice one, RJ."

[Prince Who Was Promised]

That whole situation still makes my heart race. I am on the claustrophobic side and if I start to imagine what it would be like to be doubled up inside a box... You could put me in one, but the person who came out again would have only a physical resemblance to me. As a means of horrific treatment, this one really resonated with me and every time I read it I just think "Nice one, RJ."

I agree. But if anything like that happened to me, someone would have to die. Espeacially with the physical torture he got.

[Lightning Lord]

Perrin and Faile are a perfect match.

Faile is an incredibly independent young woman who wants to prove how tough she is by being pushed around and constantly harassing her husband about non-existent other love interests. She is a child who passive-aggressively takes out her insecurities on the one person she has no reason to be insecure about.

Perrin is a completely single-minded character who, despite being slow to think things through, has no ability to actually look at something from other angles. There is only one angle in his head. I don't care how often it is written that he looks at things like a blacksmith's puzzle or whatever, he just forges ahead, unable to change his mind. He really is dumb and now that he's besotted, he's also boring and dangerous. But the dangerous somehow manages to not be interesting.

Both characters suck. At least we usually only have to read them once, since they are always together.

[Slick Mongoose]

I finished KoD a couple of days ago. I'd forgotten how good it was. Particularly the Mat chapters, after he meets up with the band. But it's all a vast improvement from CoT, and very rereadable.

Poor timing, I was hoping to finish the reread the day before tGS came out.

[TerraPrime]

Finished reading the Fires of Heaven.

1. I was reminded at how inanely stupid RJ's handling of gender is. Again. And again. Culminating in Rand being unable to kill Lanfear. I yawned. So. Pathetic. And Mat, too. Chivalry had never looked so dumb.

2. I also don't get the Aviendha thing. What was she running away from, again? Still, it's better than Elayne or Min falling in love with Rand. At least here you got some genuine interactions and it's slightly believable that Rand could have developed some feelings towards Aviendha.

3. The whole Nynaeve/Elayne travelogue was not bad. I know that RJ is showing Nynaeve's character changing and growing, so even as I continue to find the whole "men are born to make trouble for women!" thing grating, I manged to read through it. The bright spot is Brigitte, who is one of the better female characters. At least their reception in Salidar was believable and well-handled.

4. Moiraine is gone. :(

5. I had high hopes for the Morgase story, but alas, the latter books didn't really live up to that expectation.

6. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." Moggy is one of the most stupid villains out there. Let's see, last time, Nynaeve beat me because she was close to me and threw something at me. So, this time, I'll just believe that she's broken so easily and keep my guard down. Yes, that's the plan. I'm the smaht!

7. Mat still remains unlikable as ever.

[Poobah]

That whole situation still makes my heart race. I am on the claustrophobic side and if I start to imagine what it would be like to be doubled up inside a box... You could put me in one, but the person who came out again would have only a physical resemblance to me. As a means of horrific treatment, this one really resonated with me and every time I read it I just think "Nice one, RJ."

Yeah, if I were Rand I'd have executed the lot of them on the spot.