First Law vs. Prince of Nothing

[Shryke]

Put it like this.

Bakker's worldbuilding (as opposed to his plotting or his battle descriptions) never made me go "Holy shit! That's Cool!" and it never made me go "Ooooh, that makes sense!" it's servicable in that it doesen't have any HUGE gaping flaws (at least by the standards of fantasy world-building) but it's not particularly interesting.

It made me do both of those things many times.

Obviously, you lack taste for anything but the devouring of worlds.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

It made me do both of those things many times.

Well, me too. It is a matter of taste, I guess.

[Renasko]

Same here. How we're reading people complaining about PoN's world-building being poor, in a thread facing it off against FL, is nothing short of remarkable.

[Relic]

My thoughts, the abridged version:

PoN + TJE

- Larger in scope and ambition.

- Insightful yet repetitive commentary on social behaviors.

- Grim yet strangely hopeful.

- Contains almost no humor. The stuff people laugh about in the books seems very very forced.

FL + BSC

- Starts off pretty small in scope.

- Not so insightful cynicism with the occasional yet surprising turn.

- Grim.

- Humerous, sometimes laugh out loud funny.

In conclusion:

VS threads are kinda dumb. I enjoy both series for different reasons and if i HAD to pick it go with PoN. Thankfully i dont have to pick. Both are way better than 90% of the fantasy out there.

[Happy Ent]

Obviously, you lack taste for anything but the devouring of worlds.

Naturally, the only world building that Galactus cares for is if the creator put chocolate at the core.

“No!†he snarled, turning back to Richards. The old iron rage had at last found him. “I am Galactus, eater-of-comets-and-worlds.†He seized the astonished man about the throat. “None have murdered so many! None have a larger hat! I’m the measure of disgrace and honor. Your measure!†The fool gagged, flailed at him with blood-oily palms. Then he went slack. Strangled. The way the girl children of slaves were strangled.

Galactus fell to a crouch, gobbled up the first world to rush him. He cried out and raised the scarred pillars of his hat, mighty tokens of his bloody past.

“Who?†he roared in their womanish tongue. “Who will build the world I cannot devour?â€

A third planet disappeared, but the authors closed on him in numbers, led by a young hippie who bellowed, “Die!†with every stroke of his pen. Background, steam punk, magic system built on Marxist dialectic. Cnaüir obliged him, questioning the soundness of his travel routes, munching it up, towers and railways and all. Undeterred, the others crowded him, hammered him with abstractions, technology, hairstyles, rites of passage, grammars, pressing him backward. Another author rushed him, an elderly gentleman. Cnaüir could see the terror in his eyes, the realization that the purple monstrosity before him was something more than human. Cnaüir swatted the pen from his feminine hands, savagely kicked him, struck. “What. Do. The. Dwarves. Eat, eh?†The man fell backward, shrieking, slapping at the blood that jetted from his groin as though it were fire. Another world, gone.

They jostled before him, now as eager to avoid as to close with him. “Where are your mighty worlds?†Galactus screamed. “Show me your mighty worlds!†His limbs fevered by all-conquering hatred, he cut them down, weak and strong alike, fighting like one mad with heartbreak, pounding histories and war machine technology and the dress patterns until they stumbled and spouted plumes of blood.

[Relic]

wow Ent.

:rofl: :rofl:

[Jon AS]

questioning the soundness of his travel routes

:rofl:

And Happy Ent wins another thread.

[Happy Ent]

Just finished Best Served Cold, so let me add an honest and serious point.

For a series of books so filled with human misery, I think Abercrombie writes with very little empathy. Thousands are killed or maimed or raped, but I don’t actually, ever, feel the outrage, the shame, the degradation. Maybe there was a brief Monza flashback that is an exception. But otherwise, I feel nothing.

Compare this to Bakker.

In a single Serwe flashback, Bakker makes me feel more terror and hopelessness than I feel in four Abercrombie books. I think this is why I like Bakker a lot more. Abercrombie makes me laugh, and sometimes grin cynically, and sometimes frown in disgust. But Bakker breaks my heart. Abercrombie is dark and gritty, but I’m never horrified and the sheer, unspeakable, unbearable, endless injustice of it all. For all his explicitness, Abercrombie remains abstract – I have to fill in the details about how people actually feel.

[Galactus]

I think that's a problem I had with Bakker, he often fails to arouse empathy. (Mind I haven't lead the First Law trilogy, so I can't really compare) despite having it experienced by POV characters Bakker's suffering actually feels very impersonal and detached.

Same here. How we're reading people complaining about PoN's world-building being poor, in a thread facing it off against FL, is nothing short of remarkable.

I'm not complaining about it being poor. Have we gone so far that "solid, workmanlike" now means "poor"? It's just not exceptional. There's nothing wrong with having something solid that gets the job done with no fuss.

[From that One Book]

Just finished Best Served Cold, so let me add an honest and serious point.

For a series of books so filled with human misery, I think Abercrombie writes with very little empathy. Thousands are killed or maimed or raped, but I don’t actually, ever, feel the outrage, the shame, the degradation. Maybe there was a brief Monza flashback that is an exception. But otherwise, I feel nothing.

Compare this to Bakker.

In a single Serwe flashback, Bakker makes me feel more terror and hopelessness than I feel in four Abercrombie books. I think this is why I like Bakker a lot more. Abercrombie makes me laugh, and sometimes grin cynically, and sometimes frown in disgust. But Bakker breaks my heart. Abercrombie is dark and gritty, but I’m never horrified and the sheer, unspeakable, unbearable, endless injustice of it all. For all his explicitness, Abercrombie remains abstract – I have to fill in the details about how people actually feel.

That's interesting. Although I agree that Abercrombie writes with very little empathy, I would argue that Bakker writes with even less. I can't think of another series I've read where I actively hate all the protagonists the way I hate those in PoN. If I had my way, the series would end with the Consult summoning the No-God to pull a Destroying-the-Regenerative on all the people of Earwa. The final scene would feature Aurax and Aurang sitting atop a pile of violated, desecrated corpses while the souls of those murdered individuals swirl around them and wail in torment, never to find the outside, always to be trapped in a horrific limbo. Seriously. That's how I'm hoping it ends.

That said - and despite my previous comments - I actually quite like PoN. I'm repulsed yet fascinated by it. I'll eagerly read it to its conclusion. However, while it is the more philosophically dense and rewarding series, FL is more fun to read. But you know, kumquats and artichokes.

[Spring Bass]

Just finished Best Served Cold, so let me add an honest and serious point.

For a series of books so filled with human misery, I think Abercrombie writes with very little empathy. Thousands are killed or maimed or raped, but I don’t actually, ever, feel the outrage, the shame, the degradation. Maybe there was a brief Monza flashback that is an exception. But otherwise, I feel nothing.

It varies a bit for me. Most of the time, I just had either some mild humor, interest, or disgust, but there were some exceptions, mostly involving Jezal and Shivers.

Compare this to Bakker.

In a single Serwe flashback, Bakker makes me feel more terror and hopelessness than I feel in four Abercrombie books. I think this is why I like Bakker a lot more. Abercrombie makes me laugh, and sometimes grin cynically, and sometimes frown in disgust. But Bakker breaks my heart. Abercrombie is dark and gritty, but I’m never horrified and the sheer, unspeakable, unbearable, endless injustice of it all. For all his explicitness, Abercrombie remains abstract – I have to fill in the details about how people actually feel.

Agreed. The first major Serwe flashback just fills you with utter loathing for the people who forced her through what happened, out of their callousness, greed, and apathy. Then there's Esmenet in the village, and so forth.

[Rhadamanth]

Hatred is weakness, young From that One Book. It arises from the passions and not from the intellect. From the darkness that comes before.

[From that One Book]

Hatred is weakness, young From that One Book. It arises from the passions and not from the intellect. From the darkness that comes before.

You're right. At this rate, I'll never be Ninja Jesus.

[kuenjato]

I think that's a problem I had with Bakker, he often fails to arouse empathy. (Mind I haven't lead the First Law trilogy, so I can't really compare) despite having it experienced by POV characters Bakker's suffering actually feels very impersonal and detached.

I'm not complaining about it being poor. Have we gone so far that "solid, workmanlike" now means "poor"? It's just not exceptional. There's nothing wrong with having something solid that gets the job done with no fuss.

"

Galactus, (and in particular to those unimpressed with Bakker's world), I'm curious what examples you consider exceptional world-building to be.

For me, this , derived from the appendix alone, shows that Bakker has put more thought and work into his world than 99% of the standard "epic fare."

[jurble]

Honestly, I find First Law more enjoyable to read, but I prefer PoN because Kellhus is just out there, and so is the entire world.

[Spring Bass]

"

Galactus, (and in particular to those unimpressed with Bakker's world), I'm curious what examples you consider exceptional world-building to be.

For me, this , derived from the appendix alone, shows that Bakker has put more thought and work into his world than 99% of the standard "epic fare."

Plus, you get a real sense of depth when examining Bakker's world, meaning that it seems self-consistent and realistic in historical operation (or about as "realistic" as you can get in that series compared to real life), and you can go deeper into it, asking questions. That's part of the problem I have with Abercrombie's world - it feels kind of shallow when you look at it more in-depth. It's not really a major problem, since he focuses heavily on the characters, but it's a weak-point compared to Bakker.

[Galactus]

"

Galactus, (and in particular to those unimpressed with Bakker's world), I'm curious what examples you consider exceptional world-building to be.

For me, this , derived from the appendix alone, shows that Bakker has put more thought and work into his world than 99% of the standard "epic fare."

Being "better than 99% of epic fantasy fare" doesen't make you actually good, though.

And really? I don't know. A world needs to be well developed enough to not get me annoyed by implausibilities, but it also needs to have something "extra", something that makes it wondrous or terrifying or fascinating. There must be a sense of the world, and I don't get that from Bakker. Probably because he is so obviously influenced by different time periods and then stitches them together.

Bakker's world-building gets the job done, it doesen't really annoy me in most cases and it's fairly consistent. Fair enough, but there's nothing to make me like it either.

[Renasko]

Bakker's world-building gets the job done, it doesen't really annoy me in most cases and it's fairly consistent. Fair enough, but there's nothing to make me like it either.

Just to put things into perspective, what do you like?

[Spring Bass]

It does raise an issue, though - what is the definition of good world-building in "realist" series (meaning series that try to show an adult human reality within their fantasy, like ASoIaF, PoN, FL, and so forth)? I have kind of my own bizarre view on it - I try to imagine myself as being able to write a Cambridge History equivalent that doesn't come out all weird from the perspective of the author.

[Happy Ent]

It does raise an issue, though - what is the definition of good world-building in "realist" series (meaning series that try to show an adult human reality within their fantasy, like ASoIaF, PoN, FL, and so forth)?

I don’t know.

But Bakker has thought a lot of things through. Metaphysics, magic, technology, history, mythology, quirks of etiquette, even a literature canon — these are all as rich as anywhere I’ve seen. But where he really shines are some of the details not routinely covered by other fantasies, like this one:

When you build a new artificial, sentient species, you better make sure they don’t kill you, either by design or accident. This is currently a big concern for people concerned with the technological singularity and transhumanists — a whole lot of people who are not obviously stupid are having really serious debates about this. Our first AI better be friendly, and all that. Google Eliezer Yudkowsky and paperclip if you haven’t seen these argument before.

I’m sure Bakker is familiar with the basic tenets of transhumanism. So when Bakkers “Melkor†(i.e., the alien rape demons) built “Orcsâ€, they actually thought about putting a control mechanism into their blueprints.

The lanterns burned low, cast an orange gloom through the pavilion’s study. He reclined on cushions set before a low table covered in scrolls. He ran his wrist down his flat stomach, clasped his cock’s aching length . . . Soon. Soon.

“Ah, yes,†a small voice said. “The promise of release.†A breath, as though drawn through a reed. “I stand among your makers, and yet the genius of your manufacture still moves me to incredulity.â€

I love this. I also think Bakker’s choice of control mechanism (namely, rewiring their sexual urges) makes a lot of sense to me and is original. Tolkien has nothing of this sort.

This, for me, is great world-buidling. (The names are also cool, of course. And the Ajencis quotes.)