164 replies to this topic

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

sciborg2, on 13 April 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:

If people believe in Bakker-verse, why would anyone choose the path of sorcery or prostitution?

Seems to me until Kellhus comes around the Scarlet Spires had no real faith, that they thought it was a joke then "learned" it was a joke with their damnation as punchline.

The Scarlet Spires are a horrible example - why the hell would they believe the Tusk? It  not only damns them, but they're also educated men.  Being forced to confront damnation in a manner regular people aren't, they're more likely to leave the religion than to believe in their own damnation.

And prostitutes pray that Yatwer will save them (hope).  Also, who the hell chooses to go into prostitution in Bakkerverse? They're forced into it by circumstance.

[Sci-2]

Are suicides damned in the Bakker-verse?

[Happy Ent]

sciborg2, on 13 April 2012 - 06:37 PM, said:

Are suicides damned in the Bakker-verse?

Good question! I don’t think we know. A valid question of the Scott.

’twould make sense that Yatwer at least damns suicides.

[Sci-2]

Yeah, Yatwer is a personification of production so it does make sense.

Also ->

Most of the Mandate is recruited in childhood, so I presume they are damned before they reach adulthood? After all it seems like damnation requires on the uttering of a Cant (maybe a few?)

Akka seems to readily accept his damnation, yet seems to hold no bitterness for the Mandate who quite possibly forced him into it - in the same way a child soldier in Earwa might be damned before being a full adult.

Not once does Akka think, "if only those librarians who are also among the Few had found me". He readily accepts that he and Esmi are damned, that teaching Kellhus sorcery might endanger the warrior prophet's soul...but his own damnation doesn't seem to matter to him that much. He resents the Mandate for many things, but not the one thing that matters in the long run.

Why?

[Joe Abercrombie]

This thread is lame, man.

Considering the title, I feel there should be way more about how shit I am.

[Larry.]

Joe Abercrombie, on 14 April 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

This thread is lame, man.

Considering the title, I feel there should be way more about how shit I am.

Sorry, I've been lacking these past few months.  Want me to try harder?

[Shryke]

sciborg2, on 14 April 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Yeah, Yatwer is a personification of production so it does make sense.

Also ->

Most of the Mandate is recruited in childhood, so I presume they are damned before they reach adulthood? After all it seems like damnation requires on the uttering of a Cant (maybe a few?)

Akka seems to readily accept his damnation, yet seems to hold no bitterness for the Mandate who quite possibly forced him into it - in the same way a child soldier in Earwa might be damned before being a full adult.

Not once does Akka think, "if only those librarians who are also among the Few had found me". He readily accepts that he and Esmi are damned, that teaching Kellhus sorcery might endanger the warrior prophet's soul...but his own damnation doesn't seem to matter to him that much. He resents the Mandate for many things, but not the one thing that matters in the long run.

Why?

Probably because they rescued him from a shitty life of poverty and raised him up to the rank where he hangs with kings and emperors and can blow buildings to little tiny bits.

Edited by Shryke, 14 April 2012 - 12:49 PM.

[Sci-2]

Shryke, on 14 April 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

Probably because they rescued him from a shitty life of poverty and raised him up to the rank where he hangs with kings and emperors and can blow buildings to little tiny bits.

So he's willing to trade temporary power for eternal damnation? Or does he feel like maybe he isn't damned the whole time? He does mention those talks with the boy he had a relationship with in school.

[Shryke]

sciborg2, on 14 April 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

So he's willing to trade temporary power for eternal damnation? Or does he feel like maybe he isn't damned the whole time? He does mention those talks with the boy he had a relationship with in school.

Yes. There's a saying for it and everything in the books. "Though you damn your soul, you will inherit the world" or something like that.

[Sci-2]

Shryke, on 14 April 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

Yes. There's a saying for it and everything in the books. "Though you damn your soul, you will inherit the world" or something like that.

So Akka is convinced by the Dreams to be the inverse of a suicide bomber. Interesting.

[Lies And Perfidy]

Look guys, we all know how this stuff is settled: reductive fan fight!

Kellhus vs. Bayaz! Proyas vs. Jezal! Cnaiur vs. Logen! Mimara vs. Monza! The Sranc vs. the Shanka! TONIGHT IN THIS VERY RING

[Sci-2]

Kellhus vs. Bayaz! : Kellhus
Proyas vs. Jezal! : Jezal
Cnaiur vs. Logen! : Cnaiur
Mimara vs. Monza! : Monza
The Sranc vs. the Shanka! : Mutual destruction.

[Lies And Perfidy]

...so we're tied at 2-all. God damnit this settled nothing.

[Shryke]

Kellhus convinces Bayaz to join him. They rule both worlds uncontested.

Then scranc rape everyone else to death.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Kellhus vs. Bayaz - Kellhus is the stronger magic-user, intellect aside.  If Bayaz decided to Eat, it might be a more interesting fight.


Proyas vs. Jezal - Jezal is the better swordsman, no doubt.  But Proyas has been in more battles, and has killed more men.  Moreover, are we using TWLW Proyas, and Red Country-age Jezal?  They're both getting up in years, but Jezal probably hasn't fought anyone in decades or practiced.  Proyas has been on the field for decades at this point.  I think he'd win.  If we're using PoN-era and TFL-era, then Jezal would probably win (as seen in how easily he kills the two men who attack him in the Empire.)

Cnaiur vs. Logen - This is actually tough.  Both are crazy, and both slaughter countless men.  Logen managed to kill that half-demon dude, while Cnaiur required Sarcellus to be distracted. So I'd give it to Logen.

Mimara vs. Monza - Monza 100%

The Sranc vs. the Shanka - Very similar in role (weapon-race and what not) but the Sranc outnumber the Shanka.  After the North was destroyed, no one ever attempted or managed to take it back from the Sranc.  After Glustrod was defeated, the Shanka were pushed back to the edge of the world.  Ergo, the Shanka are weaker than the Sranc.

Edited by Xir’kirimakra, 14 April 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[dbcooper]

Kellhus vs Bayaz is no competition.  Bayaz passes out if he gets too stressed, Kellhus is superman.

There's no way Logen would lose to Cnaiur.  Or that is to say, there's no way The Bloody-Nine would.  If Cnaiur gets the better of Logen, the Bloody-Nine will pop up and save the day.

And I haven't read much of this thread but I have read both series in question to know that they are completely different in story/style/purpose/whatever and not much can be gained by comparing them.

Edited by dbcooper, 14 April 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[oldnumericals]

Prince of Nothing's premise/world is darker, but Abercrombie's general disinterest in having solid conclusions in favor of being "unconventional" has led to some grim endings.  PoN (especially in the last two books) has had some truly climatic endings; Bakker has mastered that, at the very least.

[Sci-2]

The moment people decide Kellhus is the savior stands out as one of the best scenes in fantasy IMO.

"WE ARE THAT ANGER!"

[Red Wedding Participant]

I hate to beat a dead horse, and I do thank sciborg2 for clarfiying which of these two series is darker (Prince of Nothing), but I have also heard that Richard K. Morgan's The Steel Remains is also a rather dark fantasy tale, beggining the question, which is darker, Prince of Nothing or The Steel Remains? I hate to go off-topic but I appreciate yor help!

[Sci-2]

Prince of Nothing, despite one graphic scene in Cold Commands.