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Who poisoned Joffrey?


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#41 The-Paul-Arron00

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:18 AM

Wasn't it Joffrey who cut the pie in the first place?

#42 Ygrain

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:01 AM

Wasn't it Joffrey who cut the pie in the first place?

That was another pie - Joffrey cut the pie with live doves, the guests were served a pie with roasted ones.

Well, small pieces of crystal would not be very different from salt. They could have put some shatters inside Tyrion's pie and he would have never noticed them.

I'm afraid that stains from purple salt would hardly go unnoticed. Besides, Tyrion doesn't have a pie prepared specifically for him, he gets a slice from a big one that is divided among the guests, it would have to be sprinkled on the top. Some servant would have to be part of the scheme, to crush the crystal and then somehow inconspicuously carrying the pinch on him to put it over one specific portion, right in front of everyone while the pie is cut.
Really, dropping a single crystal in wine is way easier.

#43 Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:03 AM

A secret targ poisoned him

#44 IRON BANK

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 01:19 AM

this theory is quite speculative, we know from the text who delivered the poison, and how it was used, we also know where the poison came from. The pie is never mentioned as poisoned as far as I can remember ( i could be wrong) Also I believe doves were in that pie wouldn't the doves have died if the pie was poisoned, also I never heard of just poisoning one piece of pie the logistics of hitting your sole target that way are mind boggling. Now if you wanted to kill the whole room sure poison the pie. But it would have to be a slow acting poison I mean how long would it take for guests to catch on the poison was served in the pie if it was fast acting. From the text we see that the poison used on Joffrey was not slow acting it was immediate.

#45 Roadside Rose

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 03:09 AM

Sorry if this question has been asked already. After rereading the last few pages of that chapter I realized that Joffrey ate the pie that was meant for Tyrion BEFORE he drank the wine. So maybe Tyrion was the one meant to be poisoned. But if so, by whom. My first thought was by Cersei, but if it was her why would she sit and watch Joffrey eat the pie? I know Tyrion ran afoul of a few people but I wonder if the pie were meant for him and not Joffrey who had enough influence to carry it out. But of course this is all speculation. It could have been the wine that did Joffrey in and that could have been at the behest of Littlefinger and/or Lady Olena. I just wanted to her other people thoughts.


The one person who really wanted to see Tyrion dead was Cersei.

#46 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 05:19 AM

It was Garlan.

Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s
another singer waiting.”
“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter
had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.”
“Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well,” said Margaery. “Your Grace, please.”
I have no wine,” Joffrey declared. “How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won’t joust you’ll be
my cupbearer.”
“I would be most honored.”
“It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the
handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the
thing
. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees,
dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice onehanded,
drank deep, and set it on the table
. “You can get up now, Uncle.”
His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him
a hand
. Joffrey laughed, and Cersei as well. Then others. He could not see who, but he heard them.
“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”
“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”
The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of
the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and
thumpings coming from inside it.
Tyrion pulled himself back into his chair. All he needed now was for a dove to shit on him and his day would be complete. The wine had
soaked through his doublet and smallclothes, and he could feel the wetness against his skin. He ought to change, but no one was permitted to
leave the feast until the time came for the bedding ceremony. That was still a good twenty or thirty dishes off, he judged.
King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. “Widow’s
Wail was not meant for slicing pies.”
“True.” Joffrey lifted his voice. “Ser Ilyn, your sword!”
From the shadows at the back of the hall, Ser Ilyn Payne appeared. The specter at the feast, thought Tyrion as he watched the King’s Justice
stride forward, gaunt and grim. He had been too young to have known Ser Ilyn before he’d lost his tongue. He would have been a different
man in those days, but now the silence is as much a part of him as those hollow eyes, that rusty chainmail shirt, and the greatsword on his
back.

Ser Ilyn bowed before the king and queen, reached back over his shoulder, and drew forth six feet of ornate silver bright with runes. He
knelt to offer the huge blade to Joffrey, hilt first; points of red fire winked from ruby eyes on the pommel, a chunk of dragonglass carved in
the shape of a grinning skull.
Sansa stirred in her seat. “What sword is that?”
Tyrion’s eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too
silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. “What has Ser Ilyn done with my father’s
sword?”
I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king.
Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves
burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from
the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around
merrily.
A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and
truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either.
“You’re deathly pale, my lady,” Tyrion said. “You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet.” He stood and offered her his hand.
“Come.”
But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?”
“I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?”
“No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine.”
The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and
drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places.
Lord Buckler wants to toast us.”


Joffrey drinks, then puts the chalice down where only Garlan and Sansa have access to it (Tyrion is unseated. and later needs to get back up on his chair).
Garlan helps Tyrion to get up, but not to his seat.
Joffrey and Margery leave.
Tyrion gets back to his seat, and can see his the chalice again.

So, the time between Joffrey leaving to cut the pie, and Tyrion getting back up in his chair, is the only time the wine could have been poisened. It can't be the pie, as it's the same pie that everyone else eat. It can't be Sansa, because we know from her POV that it was not her (Unless we have a case of Sansa Durden).

The only person close enough, in the short time frame that the wine could have been poisened, is Garlan. Garlan has the Means (his grandmother took the poiesn from Sansa's hairnet, and could have slipped it to him during the feast), Motive (his sister was about to be married to an abusive monster), and Opportunity (the only person close enough to the chalice while no one was looking).

#47 Ygrain

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 08:51 AM

It was Garlan.



Joffrey drinks, then puts the chalice down where only Garlan and Sansa have access to it (Tyrion is unseated. and later needs to get back up on his chair).
Garlan helps Tyrion to get up, but not to his seat.
Joffrey and Margery leave.
Tyrion gets back to his seat, and can see his the chalice again.

So, the time between Joffrey leaving to cut the pie, and Tyrion getting back up in his chair, is the only time the wine could have been poisened. It can't be the pie, as it's the same pie that everyone else eat. It can't be Sansa, because we know from her POV that it was not her (Unless we have a case of Sansa Durden).

The only person close enough, in the short time frame that the wine could have been poisened, is Garlan. Garlan has the Means (his grandmother took the poiesn from Sansa's hairnet, and could have slipped it to him during the feast), Motive (his sister was about to be married to an abusive monster), and Opportunity (the only person close enough to the chalice while no one was looking).

I fully agree that Garlan is the most probable culprit, but let us not forget the sweet Lady Leonette. I haven't been able to determine if it was her or Garlan who was seated next to Tyrion, but the usual seating order would be lord-lady-lord-lady.

#48 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 09:41 AM

I fully agree that Garlan is the most probable culprit, but let us not forget the sweet Lady Leonette. I haven't been able to determine if it was her or Garlan who was seated next to Tyrion, but the usual seating order would be lord-lady-lord-lady.


She was seated between Garlan and the QOT. The seating is: Sansa-Tyrion-Garlan-Leonette-QOT. If she was not in on the plot as well, The QOT passes the poisen to Garlan behind her back or drops it in his lap when going to her seat after taking the poisen from Sansa.

#49 Ygrain

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:37 AM

She was seated between Garlan and the QOT. The seating is: Sansa-Tyrion-Garlan-Leonette-QOT. If she was not in on the plot as well, The QOT passes the poisen to Garlan behind her back or drops it in his lap when going to her seat after taking the poisen from Sansa.

There is no mention of QOT's seating, or at least I didn't find it:

He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey.
...
Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.”
“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done.
...
“He’s choking,” Queen Margaery gasped.
Her grandmother moved to her side. “Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size

If she is leaning on her cane, she is moving about, not seated - her seat is close, no doubt, but I don't think that it can be determined where precisely.
However, I finally found what I was looking for - it aparently got lost in the tanslation the last time I was looking:

“If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I’ll do is hang all the singers,” said Tyrion, too loudly. Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, “A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant.”

Leonette is the one sitting next to Tyrion, not Garlan, so it's Sansa-Tyrion-Leonette-Garlan, as it should be. Neither can be ruled out as the poisoner.

#50 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:19 AM

There is no mention of QOT's seating, or at least I didn't find it:

He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey.
...
Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.”
“Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done.
...
“He’s choking,” Queen Margaery gasped.
Her grandmother moved to her side. “Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size

If she is leaning on her cane, she is moving about, not seated - her seat is close, no doubt, but I don't think that it can be determined where precisely.
However, I finally found what I was looking for - it aparently got lost in the tanslation the last time I was looking:

“If I am ever Hand again, the first thing I’ll do is hang all the singers,” said Tyrion, too loudly. Lady Leonette laughed lightly beside him, and Ser Garlan leaned over to say, “A valiant deed unsung is no less valiant.”

Leonette is the one sitting next to Tyrion, not Garlan, so it's Sansa-Tyrion-Leonette-Garlan, as it should be. Neither can be ruled out as the poisoner.


I guess I could be remembering how I fleshed it out in my first read. But Garlan places his hand on Tyrion's when Joffrey comes close, and helps Tyrion to get up. Both times he would need to get around Leonette to do so. Kind of awkward...

#51 Ygrain

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:32 AM

I guess I could be remembering how I fleshed it out in my first read. But Garlan places his hand on Tyrion's when Joffrey comes close, and helps Tyrion to get up. Both times he would need to get around Leonette to do so. Kind of awkward...

He might have stood up in order to help Tyrion get up, and lean over Leonette to warn him just as he did before - or at least, that's my reading of "lean over" if Leonette is beside Tyrion.
I must admit, though, that I do not want Garlan to be the poisoner - he seems a very decent guy, both here aknowledging Tyrion's role in saving KL from Stannis (and being the only to do so) as well as trying to comfort Sansa at her wedding to Tyrion. If he is the poisoner, it's all just ugly pretense - not impossible, of course, but I feel that getting a straight character now and then is refreshing, with all the scheming around. If this is his true character, then he cannot be the poisoner, because QOT would never indulge him in the scheme. On the other hand, the Tyrell ladies seem to be a tightly knit bunch, so perhaps the involvement of Leonette, about whose character we do not know much, isn't so far-fetched.

#52 ambi76

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:46 AM

It's all needlessly complicated by the three foot tall wedding chalice on a table that tiny Olenna supposedly could not reach, so someone taller must insert the poison. I think in the show they will probably just have Olenna do it herself (well, Garlan doesn't exist and Loras would be really weird).

#53 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:52 AM

He might have stood up in order to help Tyrion get up, and lean over Leonette to warn him just as he did before - or at least, that's my reading of "lean over" if Leonette is beside Tyrion.
I must admit, though, that I do not want Garlan to be the poisoner - he seems a very decent guy, both here aknowledging Tyrion's role in saving KL from Stannis (and being the only to do so) as well as trying to comfort Sansa at her wedding to Tyrion. If he is the poisoner, it's all just ugly pretense - not impossible, of course, but I feel that getting a straight character now and then is refreshing, with all the scheming around. If this is his true character, then he cannot be the poisoner, because QOT would never indulge him in the scheme. On the other hand, the Tyrell ladies seem to be a tightly knit bunch, so perhaps the involvement of Leonette, about whose character we do not know much, isn't so far-fetched.


I just don't see it. Other then Leonette and Marg being the same family now, there is no motive. She does not feel for Marg as much as her brother does.

I, on the other hand, would love it if he was the poisener. He seems to be so perfect, that if wanting to protect his baby sister led him to kill a monster, I realy prefer that to be his fault. We can't have nice things in ASOIAF. We can't have a knight in shining armor that stands for all a knight should be. Garlan knows exactly what Joffrey is. Leonette killing Joffrey is having Garlan being married to a woman who can commit murder, and he knows nothing about it. I don't get the feel that we get that much of Leonette "screen time" for her to be the killer. If we have Garlan's build up as this epic knight, but then get the twist that he was also the killer, that fits alot better then Leonette's out-of-the-blue move, and Martin's style.

And think of it this way, how totally differently one would look at Garlan if we find out that he did it.

#54 MidnightAurora

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 11:56 AM

I remember Garlan stating to Tyrion at one point to not touch something and thought it was the pie or drink.. Garlan seems like the nicest guy out of the Tyrell family.

#55 A Man Has Said

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:01 PM

Certainly, but the point is that Martin generally offers plausible mechanisms for the events that occur in the story. I don't think he really makes things seem one way only to suddenly pull an "Aha!" on the reader. One of the clearest examples of this I can think of is the issue of who was behind the attempt on Bran's life. While it is a point of speculation for much of the story, Martin never provides a really clear picture of "whodunnit," and while the answer in the end is sort of random I don't think he really tried to "fool" the reader by making it really apparent that, for instance, Cersei had ordered it.

In the case of Joffrey's poisoning, it's not clear who was behind it but there is overwhelming evidence that Sansa's hair net was the vehicle by which the poison was smuggled in, and then of course there is Sansa's conversation with Littlefinger. In other words, there is direct evidence pointing to a culprit, a motive, and a mechanism. Martin would have to be TRYING to put one over on the reader if, after all that, it turns out that it was a different target entirely, which hasn't been his style at all.

I think that the reveal about Lysa's and Littlefinger's involvement in Jon Arryn's death was quite out of left field, GRRM definitely pulling an "AHA!" on the readers. Up until that point in ASoS, ALL indications pointed to it being a Lannister plot to conceal the true parentage of Cersei's children. So he does that. I can't think of a single line anyone has referred to that even hints that it was Lysa who poisoned her husband.

I don't think there's really overwhelming evidence that the poison was concealed in Sansa's hairnet though. The evidence does overwhelmingly show that Littlefinger wanted her to think that it was, to make her believe that she was (unknowingly, to be sure) involved in the assassination of the king. Sansa's feelings of guilt over this supposed complicity were designed to make her more compliant to Littlefinger, more eager to hide from the authorities, more willing to take on a false identity, etc. Otherwise she might have decided that the best course of action was to stay in KL and clear her name.

Anyway, it's an entirely unnecessary complication isn't it? The size of an amethyst gem is inconsequential and it could have been brought into the wedding in any number of ways, by Olenna or anyone else without a significant risk of detection.It could be concealed in the fold of ones sleeve, or Olenna could have worn a hairnet herself, or.. ..the possibilities are endless.

#56 Ygrain

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:03 PM

I just don't see it. Other then Leonette and Marg being the same family now, there is no motive. She does not feel for Marg as much as her brother does.

I, on the other hand, would love it if he was the poisener. He seems to be so perfect, that if wanting to protect his baby sister led him to kill a monster, I realy prefer that to be his fault. We can't have nice things in ASOIAF. We can't have a knight in shining armor that stands for all a knight should be. Garlan knows exactly what Joffrey is. Leonette killing Joffrey is having Garlan being married to a woman who can commit murder, and he knows nothing about it. I don't get the feel that we get that much of Leonette "screen time" for her to be the killer. If we have Garlan's build up as this epic knight, but then get the twist that he was also the killer, that fits alot better then Leonette's out-of-the-blue move, and Martin's style.

And think of it this way, how totally differently one would look at Garlan if we find out that he did it.

I agree that there is an interesting character development potential if it is Garlan; on the other hand, the idea of Tyrell ladies as a powerful clique that writes the history sort of behind the scenes is also appealing. There is the involvement of Taena Merryweather who testified against Tyrion, and she must have been instructed by someone that Tyrion had been picked as a scapegoat. So, if Taena, then why not Leonette, as well?

#57 Lord_Tyrell

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:06 PM

I think the novels made this pretty clear. Olenna got the poison and Margeary dropped it. Littlefinger of course ensured it as well.

#58 The-Paul-Arron00

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:21 PM

I know this has nothing to do with the poisoning necessarily but this scene was what made garlan tyrell become one of my favorite characters and made me think much higher of the tyrells in general. When garlan stands up for tyrion and tells Joffrey that what he was doing "was ill done". Garlan is cool and I bet the rest of them are at least decent people.

#59 Nyrhex

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:25 PM

I agree that there is an interesting character development potential if it is Garlan; on the other hand, the idea of Tyrell ladies as a powerful clique that writes the history sort of behind the scenes is also appealing. There is the involvement of Taena Merryweather who testified against Tyrion, and she must have been instructed by someone that Tyrion had been picked as a scapegoat. So, if Taena, then why not Leonette, as well?


Leonette is a Fossoway. Taena is Myrish, and when Margeary is imprisoned, she flees to Longtable with her husband. Not realy showing to be a part of a clique. Giving a false testimony to placate Cersie, is something an ambitiouse person can do to further improve his standing with the ruling power. I think her game is completly disconected from the Tyrells'.

I also don't think that Tyrion was picked as a scapegoat by the Tyrells:



Margaery Tyrell began to sob, and Tyrion heard her mother Lady Alerie saying, “He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught
to do with you. He choked. We all saw.”
“He did not choke.” Cersei’s voice was sharp as Ser Ilyn’s sword. “My son was poisoned.” She looked to the white knights standing
helplessly around her. “Kingsguard, do your duty.”
“My lady?” said Ser Loras Tyrell, uncertain.
“Arrest my brother,” she commanded him. “He did this, the dwarf. Him and his little wife. They killed my son. Your king. Take them! Take
them both!”

Alerie Hightower is Marg's mother. Notice that up until Cersie turns the finger at Tyrion, nobody suspects it was poisening, or that Tyrion had anything to do with it. Joffrey was getting too drunk on the wedding of the century. His wedding. He ate the pie too fast and choked. That is all that anybody needed to know. Cersie turns Tyrion into a scapegoat. Garlan and Leonette, who sat right next to Tyrion, do not testify. Why not? Because they have no interest in getting him convicted, and anything else will draw attention to thier part. The Tyrell plot was only aimed at getting one victim, with no suspicion. Cersie's paranoia caused the trial.


I think the novels made this pretty clear. Olenna got the poison and Margeary dropped it. Littlefinger of course ensured it as well.


The chalice is emptied, refilled, then left infront of Tyrion. Joffrey shows up, takes a sip, and is poisened. I think someone would have noticed if just before he took the sip, Margeary dropped something in.

#60 Lazy Lion

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:27 PM

I read over the Purple Wedding again a few days ago, and there were a few things that jumped out at me.

1: I'm convinced the wine was probably poisoned. That's by far more likely (and simpler) than poisoning the pie, and the odds are that Olenna did it herself, and that Marg was clearly in on it. Her passing the poison to Garlan strikes me as unnecessary (they had no idea Joffrey would be bringing the goblet down to upend over Tyrion) and "poisoner" fits her character much more than his. (Cue the "it's too obvious!" speculation.)

2: On the other hand, Martin does dwell on the pie for just a little longer than necessary. It's well-established, but not poured over the reader's head the way the wine was. So I found myself wondering about that as well.

3: The Tyrells have far more motive to murder Joffrey than Tyrion. Yes, Tyrion's death would free up Sansa to be wed to Willas, and the Lannisters would be hard-pressed to object at that point. But Olenna and Marg questioned Sansa about Joffrey for a reason, and they clearly had overwhelming motive to want him dead before he could abuse Marg.

4: Littlefinger took elaborate steps to ensure that Tyrion would be blamed. He hired Penny and Groat, counting on the jousting dwarfs starting an altercation between Tyrion and Joffrey. It gives Tyrion an obvious and immediate motive in everyone's eyes. If the plan was for Tyrion to be poisoned, this seems like an absurd waste of time: no one would believe Joffrey would poison his uncle; he's never been that subtle.

5: I think both the wine and the pie were poisoned, and the Tyrells didn't tell Littlefinger they planned to kill Tyrion. Joffrey dropped dead of the strangler (in the pie?) before whatever other poison used could hurt him. I'm ambivalent on whether Garlan was out of the loop or deliberately buttering Tyrion up...though from his actions at the Tyrion/Sansa wedding this sort of kindness seems very in keeping with his character.

The Tyrells and Littlefinger were not a cozy little conspiracy that shared everything: LF didn't know about the Sansa/Willas plan until Sansa told Dontos. My personal opinion after my latest reread is that there were dueling plots at the Purple Wedding, and Joffrey had the singularly bad luck (or Tyrion the good luck) that he stumbled into both poisons at once.

Edited by Lazy Lion, 11 August 2013 - 12:27 PM.