Am I the only one who finds Wheel of Time overwriten and drawn out?

[xythil]

I read the first 5 books in the Wheel of Time series. The first 3 books were engaging and every book after that became less engaging and more describing blue sequent dresses and every other minor detail of what every character was wearing.

I mean the magic and interesting dynamic between good and evil was great but after books of nearly nothing happening and almost no plot development it just became impsosible for me to convince myself to keep reading.

Me and a friend who also feels the same way I do borrowed Crossroads of Twilight on tape from the library and listened to it over the summer and were distraught that 12 books in he still was not advancing the plot in hundreds of pages and still taking his sweet time describing every little minute detail of peoples clothing.

Anyone else feel the same way?

[mashiara]

Anyone else feel the same way?

Not me.

Let me get this straight, you read the first 5 books and then you went straight to the 12th? Surely, that's not the best way to deal with a series like this. How can you talk of the plot not advancing betweeen books 5 and 12, that's just something I can't grasp.

WoT has a loyal fanbase. It doesn't mean we don't see the faults and the problems, which, most of us agree, are obvious much later than book 5, or that we're not bothered by the endless descriptions of dresses. *tugs braid* If you do read the whole series though you'll see many of the things that make it special. Even the people who complained a lot about the weaker books -myself included- realize upon rereading the whole thing without having to wait years between books what a great vision Jordan had and how complex this series is.

[xythil]

Not me.

Let me get this straight, you read the first 5 books and then you went straight to the 12th? Surely, that's not the best way to deal with a series like this. How can you talk of the plot not advancing betweeen books 5 and 12, that's just something I can't grasp.

WoT has a loyal fanbase. It doesn't mean we don't see the faults and the problems, which, most of us agree, are obvious much later than book 5, or that we're not bothered by the endless descriptions of dresses. *tugs braid* If you do read the whole series though you'll see many of the things that make it special. Even the people who complained a lot about the weaker books -myself included- realize upon rereading the whole thing without having to wait years between books what a great vision Jordan had and how complex this series is.

I can see where you are coming from. I should explain better. My friend had read them all up to Twilight. I stopped at 5 because I got sick of reading hundreds of pages and seeing nothing really happen. I mean my friend helped fill in some of the missing plot points but the fact I wasn't even LOST at all skiping 6 books... is just ridiculous. I mean I barely had to ask my friend questions regarding the plot. So little happened in those prior 5 books that skipping them did not leave me confused. Now imagine skipping even ONE book in ASOIAF. Try going from AGOT to A storm of swords... you would be hopeless confused.

To me the entire series could have been condensed to 5-6 books and would have been better for it.

[MaesterLuwin]

The books are bloated and out of control, for sure, though most people consider Books 4 through 6 the zenith of the series, so I'm surprised you were fed up after Book 5. I myself think Book 6 is the best, though admittedly there are less action sequences and a lot more politicking. The truly sluggish books are Books 8-10, which as far as I can tell should have been one volume.

But there's a difference between thinking a series is unnecessarily lengthy, and decrying the fact that it has any fans at all. And the fact is, no matter how slow or bloated the series gets, I never have any doubt that Robert Jordan had the plot planned out way back in 1989. Not just the major plot points. Nearly everything. This consistency is probably the Wheel of Time's greatest strength, and also one of its greatest weaknesses - RJ probably should have changed the plot a little when it wasn't working.

(Also, let's be careful with ASoIaF comparisons. AFFC shows symptoms of a Jordan-esque inflation, and a lot of defenses of AFFC are some of the same defenses I heard from fans when the Wheel of Time started to spin out of control back in the nineties.

"You just don't understand what the author is doing!" or "He's setting up the plot for the next book!" or "I like the large number of characters and complex plots!" or "This will turn out to be important. Just wait!" are all defenses I have seen applied to both series.)

EDIT: It's unfortunate you dove back into the series with Crossroads. That is universally considered the worst book in the series, and it's the one installment I can't even defend a little bit. The series grinds to a halt with that book, and there's no sort of narrative structure at all.

[Slick Mongoose]

When Jordan's good, he's very very good. The conclusions to book 6, for example, is amazing.

And I skim-read the lengthy descriptions.

[Slurktan]

I can see where you are coming from. I should explain better. My friend had read them all up to Twilight. I stopped at 5 because I got sick of reading hundreds of pages and seeing nothing really happen. I mean my friend helped fill in some of the missing plot points but the fact I wasn't even LOST at all skiping 6 books... is just ridiculous. I mean I barely had to ask my friend questions regarding the plot. So little happened in those prior 5 books that skipping them did not leave me confused. Now imagine skipping even ONE book in ASOIAF. Try going from AGOT to A storm of swords... you would be hopeless confused.

To me the entire series could have been condensed to 5-6 books and would have been better for it.

1) Your friend must have done a masterful job filling in the details.

2) I'd like for you to explain to me how it is that in Book 4 of the WoT nothing happens. Seriously. Especially in comparison with A Clash of Kings since you decided to bring up ASOIAF.

3) Crossroads of Twilight is book 10 not 12.

EDIT: It's unfortunate you dove back into the series with Crossroads. That is universally considered the worst book in the series, and it's the one installment I can't even defend a little bit. The series grinds to a halt with that book, and there's no sort of narrative structure at all.

Not quite universally :) Winter's Heart is a far worse book in my opinion.

[The Real Will]

The books are bloated and out of control, for sure, though most people consider Books 4 through 6 the zenith of the series, so I'm surprised you were fed up after Book 5. I myself think Book 6 is the best, though admittedly there are less action sequences and a lot more politicking. The truly sluggish books are Books 8-10, which as far as I can tell should have been one volume.

But there's a difference between thinking a series is unnecessarily lengthy, and decrying the fact that it has any fans at all. And the fact is, no matter how slow or bloated the series gets, I never have any doubt that Robert Jordan had the plot planned out way back in 1989. Not just the major plot points. Nearly everything. This consistency is probably the Wheel of Time's greatest strength, and also one of its greatest weaknesses - RJ probably should have changed the plot a little when it wasn't working.

(Also, let's be careful with ASoIaF comparisons. AFFC shows symptoms of a Jordan-esque inflation, and a lot of defenses of AFFC are some of the same defenses I heard from fans when the Wheel of Time started to spin out of control back in the nineties.

"You just don't understand what the author is doing!" or "He's setting up the plot for the next book!" or "I like the large number of characters and complex plots!" or "This will turn out to be important. Just wait!" are all defenses I have seen applied to both series.)

EDIT: It's unfortunate you dove back into the series with Crossroads. That is universally considered the worst book in the series, and it's the one installment I can't even defend a little bit. The series grinds to a halt with that book, and there's no sort of narrative structure at all.

Definitely (to almost everything you've said). I'm not a great WoT apologist and have all sorts of issues with it, but it has some amazing strengths to balance them out. Giving up because of books 4-5 seems odd to me as well since I believe 4 was the best book of the series and 5 and 6 were also pretty strong. Books 1-3 had their own issues (quite different issues to those that developed later). Saying that you don't miss anything important by skipping books 6 and 7 is... improbable at best (actually, after skipping book 6 and 7 I would have thought that nothing in the story would be familiar apart from the names). After that the problems really start to show and coming back in with CoT is an unfortunate decision.

Not quite universally :) Winter's Heart is a far worse book in my opinion.

Really? I'm not about to claim that WH was a work of genius, but at least there was some sort of narrative and at least one significant event occurred. The majority of CoT happens before WH ends, the character progress from nowhere to exactly nowhere else throughout the book, and the major event from WH, the fallout of which I'm sure everyone was waiting to read, was ignored almost entirely. Each to his own, I guess, but to my mind there is no competition. If you were to reedit WoT to remove some of the bloat, CoT could be excised almost in its entirety, whereas significant portions of WH would need to be kept.

[mashiara]

3) Crossroads of Twilight is book 10 not 12.

Duh! And to think I'm rereading this at the moment!

[Maia]

Heh. I am a somewhat disenchanted WoT fan. For me, the books went downhill after book 6 (my favorites are books 4 and 5) and IMHO volumes 7-11 should have been condensed into 2-3 kick-ass books. Too many plot-lines are evidently and unnecessarily drawn-out in them, while truly important things (like the big event in WH) are dealt with in perfunctionary and unsatisfying manner.

Nevertheless, I got drawn into the Tor re-reads and finished with a complete re-read of the saga and rising excitement for the upcoming installment. For me, WoT certainly still has it's pull. But, terrible as it sounds, I am sort of glad that it will be completed by somebody else. I felt that Jordan would either have drawn out things some more or got fed up and tied everything up quick and dirty, missing the emotional payoff due after following a story for so long.

[ldygrffn]

I felt that Jordan would either have drawn out things some more or got fed up and tie up everything up quick and dirty, missing the emotional payoff due after following a story for so long.

I do agree with this, somewhat. I believe that Jordan could have done those things, but I am still kind of upset that it will be finished by someone who did not have the characters living in his head, and I think that we will lose something for that, mostly in the final battle.

All that said, I started reading WoT at about the time that LoC came out, and while, granted, I was pretty young then, they hooked me. I see the flaws, and with each reread, I see them more. But I still buy the next book, because Jordan hooked me on the characters (braid tugging and all) and I want to know what happens to this world next.

I hope Sanderson doesn't screw it up. And I don't think he will

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Maia,

I've read up to about a third of the way through Book 6. Book 4 was my favorite. Rand's experience when becoming the Car a' Carn was beautifully written and gave great background for the entire series. Book 5 was much slower than book 4. The lengthy scenes where characters were traveling with the circus were mind numbingly boring. I could not get into Book 6 and set it and the rest of the series aside.

I have read summaries of the other books so I know where the story is, roughly, that said I don't know if I will pick up the Sanderson books.

[Jaqen the FatManderly]

I was advised I'd be happier never starting the series.

Everything I hear about WoT backs up that suggestion.

[Krafus]

I think a lot of WoT readers no longer like the series nearly as much as they did before, but believe they have invested too much time, money and/or emotional attachment to give up now. Nostalgia might also play its part - some readers might hope that new entries will rekindle the ashes of their enjoyment of the series into, if not into the fierce bonfire it once was, then at least a fire big enough that they can warm themselves at it and fondly remember happier, long-gone days.

I'm a former WoT reader, and I've never shared that mindset. If I determine that a series, whether its medium is books or TV, is no longer worth my time, I'll drop it then and there. Thus, I abandoned WoT at book 9, Sword of Truth at book 4, Lost at the end of season 1, and so on. Sometimes I go back and read a few favorite passages, but I've never felt any serious compulsion to start reading/watching again, especially after reading of all those series' decline here and elsewhere.

[Ran]

I like the setting for roleplaying purposes, ridiculous worldbuilding bits aside, and I suppose I've a vague interest in how things wrap up; maybe more than vague, given that I've read the chapters made available and listened to the audio chapter. But I can't really see myself reading any of the rest of the books -- skimming, maybe, but outright reading... ? Don't think that's too likely.

[wolverine]

I was advised I'd be happier never starting the series.

Everything I hear about WoT backs up that suggestion.

This series got me back into reading and specifically into fantasy and I am extremely happy that I have read it. I am excited for the conclusion and am glad I have experienced the books. I think Jordan is the best world builder I have read. His intricate details of each culture are unique and interesting.

In my opinion AFFC was about as bad as any of Jordan's "bad" books in the series. Martin wrote the book ending like a soap opera or the writers of Lost.

It seems to me that you are almost looked down on if you enjoy WoT (like the yeard readers). I was not satisfied with the last couple books but still am very satisfied with the series as a whole.

[Slurktan]

Really? I'm not about to claim that WH was a work of genius, but at least there was some sort of narrative and at least one significant event occurred. The majority of CoT happens before WH ends, the character progress from nowhere to exactly nowhere else throughout the book, and the major event from WH, the fallout of which I'm sure everyone was waiting to read, was ignored almost entirely. Each to his own, I guess, but to my mind there is no competition. If you were to reedit WoT to remove some of the bloat, CoT could be excised almost in its entirety, whereas significant portions of WH would need to be kept.

Let me say this first, I'm not saying that CoT is a particularly good book or anything. And of course this is all IMO.

But Winter's Heart to me is very disjointed and has far less plot movement than CoT. To me it's this: Perrin thinking of how to get Faile for several chapters, Mat dicking around in Ebou Dar pointlessly for a few chapters then finally leaving, Elayne dicking around in Andor in a few chapters, Rand dicking around (err for some treason the city name is blanking for me) Far Madden for a few chapters, Egwene dicking around in Murandy with her army for a few chapters etc. etc.

It's just a bunch of side adventures that get no resolution or need no resolution that I think could have all been put together into one chapter each and then BOOM! Out of nowhere a huge series changing scene happens. While I don't think the "Choedan Kal" chapter was very well written at least stuff happened in it but it was all out of the blue in a sense of Rand doing this: "Oh I've just been running around a city looking for people who mysteriously are able to follow me even though I'm incognito and then I get put in another box, OK now its time to cleanse Saidin." Just jarring for me.

Now CoT is slow and not much happens in it but for the most part in the grand picture the pieces are moved into position(not you Elayne) for the end game. This kind of movement of most of the characters into a goal hadn't been seen in the last few books so it was and still is on rereads refreshing for me; so to me that makes CoT better than WH.

I've got a bit of a head cold so hopefully that all makes sense :)

Edit: Put something in the wrong spot in a sentance.

[Slick Mongoose]

I think books 8 & 9 were originally supposed to be one book, as were books 10 & 11. Which would explain a lot.

[VarysTheSpider]

How does Wheel of Time still have a fan base?

Don't ask me, but then I've never understood why it ever had a fanbase.

[wolverine]

How does Wheel of Time still have a fan base?

Don't ask me, but then I've never understood why it ever had a fanbase.

Maybe you need to work on your skills of comprehension :ack:

[fionwe1987]

Why does the Wheel of Time have a fan-base?

Aside from my personal opinion that the reason is because it is a great series, even people who despise it might agree that some of the elements of the series, namely its rich world-building, a set of characters who were initially easy to identify with, who went on into somewhat non-traditional story arcs (while still managing to fit into archetypal heroes journeys) and the mostly non-offensive prose, are good enough to keep any fan base.