Am I the only one who finds Wheel of Time overwriten and drawn out?

[xythil]

(Also, let's be careful with ASoIaF comparisons. AFFC shows symptoms of a Jordan-esque inflation, and a lot of defenses of AFFC are some of the same defenses I heard from fans when the Wheel of Time started to spin out of control back in the nineties.

Don't think me blind to GRRM's faults, he is not perfect. This is exactly what I told my friend after reading AFFC. Hey look instead of mindlessly describing ecery facet of what people are wearing... he just added ina bunch of Brienne walking around pointlesssly...

So trust me I am aware of the faults in AFFC. And to make it worst that was suppose to be half of an already written book that HAD to be broken up into two books. And yet reading it I can't possibly see how he thought those stories could stand on their own next to A Storm of Swords.

Also to all the others, I appreciate your input. I did not mean to denegrate WOT so much as I know it has its fans. It was the book that got me into fantasy but by book 5-6 it just couldn't keep my interest. And then after reading GRRMs original trilogy I don't think I could ever go back.

Rand was interesting and so was the taint on male casters. All Jordans ideas were interesting but he drew it out far to long without really adding anything worth wild to justify it's length, both the books and the series itself.

And my friend gave me a pretty good synopsis. It has been a few years so I have forgotten much of them now. He explained about rand curing the taint and Mazram Taim training his casters and major stuff like that. But I guess starting up with COT was a poor choice.

But I guess my main point is in the end I believe WOT would be a MUCH better series if it was trimmed down and streamlined. Both by book and the series as a whole. I honestly believe there are books worth of filler in that series.

KRAFUS - Go back and keep watching Lost. If all you saw is season 1 you havn't seen anything yet. I am not easily amused when it comes to television but Lost is well worth watching. the characters are interesting, the plot is full of great mystery but also keeps giving you answers at a steady pace as to not become annoying, and it is just written well. It is well worth your time bro. I never wanted to give it a chance because popular television tends to be for dumbies. But this is one show that really lives up to the hype.

On a side note, what is the Braid tugging thing? =p Is that what the Princess Matt ran off with always does?

[VarysTheSpider]

Maybe you need to work on your skills of comprehension :ack:

I'm trying, man. I've been trying since the moment I opened up The Eye of the World and comprehended painfully childish whiney characters going through a bog-standard plot set in a world stolen and mutilated from the mind of Tolkien, all told in a very bland narrative with this really nasty current of sexism that even I noticed, and I mostly don't care about that kind of thing. The kindest thing I can say about WoT is that it's trash. Now we all like a bit of trash - I'm partial to a bit of Dan Brown, for example - but I'm still not a Dan Brown "fan" and would never actually argue that it's really any good beyond the easy thrill.

[Finn]

In my opinion AFFC was about as bad as any of Jordan's "bad" books in the series.

On the contrary, AFFC, despite its flaws, was significantly better than the best WOT book (although I confess never made it past book seven in the series). This isn't surprising as Martin is a superior writer in every respect. In fact, I don't really think it's fair to Jordan (who does certain things competently) to make the comparison.

[mashiara]

On a side note, what is the Braid tugging thing? =p Is that what the Princess Matt ran off with always does?

No, it's Nynaeve who does it all the time. Truly inspirational, actually. There are days I feel like pulling my hair out, it's a good thing I don't normally wear it in braids.

Varys the Spider

The kindest thing I can say about WoT is that it's trash.

That's... extreme, to say the least. Everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion but I don't think I've ever heard someone use that term for WoT.

[Shryke]

I'm trying, man. I've been trying since the moment I opened up The Eye of the World and comprehended painfully childish whiney characters going through a bog-standard plot set in a world stolen and mutilated from the mind of Tolkien, all told in a very bland narrative with this really nasty current of sexism that even I noticed, and I mostly don't care about that kind of thing. The kindest thing I can say about WoT is that it's trash. Now we all like a bit of trash - I'm partial to a bit of Dan Brown, for example - but I'm still not a Dan Brown "fan" and would never actually argue that it's really any good beyond the easy thrill.

Well, it's good to know you didn't look very deeply when you read the first 50 pages.

[Tears of Lys]

WoT has fascinating ideas that are rendered exquisitely once or twice each book (sometimes more, but don't count on it.) If you have a lot of patience, you'll get a payoff.

Patience levels may vary.

[xythil]

As bad as AFFC was... it was only bad compared to the masterpieces that preceded it. Take out Briennes chapters and replace them with Dany/Tyrion/Jon and it is a great book. The payoff at the end even despite the Brienne chapters is great.

OH MY GOD whoever said to read the CROSSROADS OF TWILIGHT reviews on AMAZON.com was SO RIGHT. I CANT STOP LAUGHING.

some excerpts

"OK look here guys, I admit, the first few books had been fun. And you know why? I got one word for you. DragonBall. It is pretty cool when Goku went out and kicked some ass each episode huh? Yeah, one forsaken each book. Super Rand attack. But let's face it. There's only so much that he can DO, before we realized that the Wheel of Time is about as complicated as Pokemon when they are still out there collecting Gym Badges. "I defeat the Aiel Guardian! I receive power-up -- Heron Mark V. 2!" "

and my personal favorite

"Have you ever wondered how many stripes should be on the dublet of an important dignatary from Illian? How many shawl twitches are appropriate when Aes Sedai negotiate momentous agreements? What kind of stool the general of an Aes Sedai army sits on, and how stable said stool might be? Well buckle up for a wild ride, amigo, because you're going to learn all that (and more!) by the time you've tediously slogged to the conclusion of this book."

[Hooplehead]

KRAFUS - Go back and keep watching Lost. If all you saw is season 1 you havn't seen anything yet. I am not easily amused when it comes to television but Lost is well worth watching. the characters are interesting, the plot is full of great mystery but also keeps giving you answers at a steady pace as to not become annoying, and it is just written well. It is well worth your time bro. I never wanted to give it a chance because popular television tends to be for dumbies. But this is one show that really lives up to the hype.

Not to get OT... but I sort of though that Lost "pulled an AFFC" with Season 3. Got pretty slow. 4 and 5 were right back to the meat and potatoes, though.

[xythil]

Not to get OT... but I sort of though that Lost "pulled an AFFC" with Season 3. Got pretty slow. 4 and 5 were right back to the meat and potatoes, though.

It all tends to get blurry for me since the plot moves so quickly. I have to say the latest seasons first half was DREADFULLY slow though =/

I will say this, Lost is not perfect, I honestly think it would be better in a 12 episode format to condense it down and get rid fo some filler but then again msot of the episodes are enjoyable. It really is one of the best shows of this decade. although this decade is filled with trash haha

[Errant Bard]

As bad as AFFC was... it was only bad compared to the masterpieces that preceded it. Take out Briennes chapters and replace them with Dany/Tyrion/Jon and it is a great book. The payoff at the end even despite the Brienne chapters is great.

[...]

There's only so much that he can DO, before we realized that the Wheel of Time is about as complicated as Pokemon when they are still out there collecting Gym Badges. "I defeat the Aiel Guardian! I receive power-up -- Heron Mark V. 2!" "

No, just... no. As much as I dislike WoT, it cannot be disparaged for following a well-worn narrative thread. It is the same bread and butter of virtually every myth out there, and of most Fantasy novels, Journey to the west, ASOIAF or LOTR included. Plus it is actually more complex than that.

And the Brienne chapters where the fucking highlight of AFFC, together with Arya's and Jaime's. You want to cut them and then you quote a guy accusing WoT of being too simple? Seems a bit contradictory.

[Atreides]

Overwritten and drawn out? I didn't know anyone didn't think that by now. But I still find it (at least some parts) very enjoyable.

[Ko Coopy]

I agree with many of the WoT criticizms. Long descriptions...they are a pain at times but I got used to them after a while. Eventually you know just how much to skip. Filler...yeah, there seemed to me to be a lot. The whole search for the bowl thing...I thought that was very anti-climactic for the amount of time spent on it - a wasted story line in my opinion. So, I'd agree that there is at least a book or two of unnecessary filler.

On the other hand, I like that there is a lot going on. Like ASoIaF, multiple story lines give the story a few different chances to catch my interest.

Overall, I think WoT is a fun read (compared to some thing in the genre - Prince of Nothing, Gormenghast). It does get to be drudgery late in the series but I have hopes for Sanderson's conclusion. It isn't a series that I really recommend to people because I'm not sure the time investment is worth what a skeptic might get out of it. If you go in thinking it will be bad, you won't be able to get past the filler and descriptions. You have to go in with an open mind to have a chance at liking it.

Oh, and I also gave up on Lost after the 3rd season...which is funny because I'm still watching CSI: Miami (mainly to root for Horatio's death...but I watch).

[Silent Brother Clegane]

I was advised I'd be happier never starting the series.

Everything I hear about WoT backs up that suggestion.

WOT is a crazy-huge slavering beast of a series, but it's only second to ASoIaF imo. If you are a serious fantasy fan, you were mis-advised. Whereas I can get behind much of the righteous criticism here, it is a good series to be sure. There are problems and most of my friends and I had to take a break after/in the middle of Book 6(LOC) but this is definitely worth the read.

There are certainly your Catelyn/Sansa style tedious chapters, and some really, really, really long descriptions, but once you get into the Matt/Perrin story line, you'll find the heart of Jordan. Jordan also employs the sleeper tactic where situations/characters who were mentioned in the first few books come out of the woodwork ten books later.

The Brandon Sanderson situation has yet to pan out, but with Harriet(RJ's wife who basically, and at times literally, co-wrote the series) there slapping him upside his fan-boy head as he goes along I hold out hope.

O, imo, one of the most awesome parts of this series is not in any of the books-Robert Jordan(James Oliver Rigny Jr.-RIP) was dictating series information as he lay dying, so that his legacy would be properly carried out. That's nothing Goodkind is going to do...

...before we realized that the Wheel of Time is about as complicated as Pokemon when they are still out there collecting Gym Badges. "I defeat the Aiel Guardian! I receive power-up -- Heron Mark V. 2!"

Wow. Just, wow.

[Galactus]

Say what you want about WoT, but simple it is not. Neither in scope nor construction or even character dilemmas. (their *resolutions* are often though)

WoT has flaws. They are many and numerous, but it is still one of the best (and certainly one of the most ambitious) fantasy series out there.

Take out Briennes chapters and replace them with Dany/Tyrion/Jon and it is a great book.

A fine example of how mileage may vary: I thought the Brienne chapters were the best parts of AFFC.

[AverageGuy]

The majority of CoT happens before WH ends, the character progress from nowhere to exactly nowhere else throughout the book

What are you talking about? In the last couple chapters, Egwene gets captured again (three or four whole paragraphs are devoted to it), and Rand wakes up. Rand waking up is important! He can't fight in the Last Battle if he never wakes up, so he had to be moved into a position of woken-upness.

But I am a little surprised that the "nothing happening" argument popped up in books 4-6. The Tower civil war, the founding of the Black Tower, the Aiel, the conquest of Andor and Cairhien, the defeat of three or four Forsaken, Mat and Perrin getting their followers. Things were still happening then. I didn't even mind books 7-9. COT and the extended NS novella were the only books that pissed me off.

[Errant Bard]

WOT is a crazy-huge slavering beast of a series, but it's only second to ASoIaF imo. If you are a serious fantasy fan, you were mis-advised.

I don't think he was. The argument that comes up regularly in WoT threads is that the series was groundbreaking and one of a kind back then. It's not anymore. There are better, shorter, less turgid, actually finished series to spend time on, and time to read is finite.

I know I got goaded by this very forum in reading the first three, then on picking the series back and reading up to book 5 (they said it got better/different, and I also had some scruples about leaving a story mid-way, back then), and I want my time back. :tantrum:

[Galactus]

There are better, shorter, less turgid, actually finished series to spend time on, and time to read is finite.

I don't really think there is, ASOIAF seems to be the only thing that is actually doing roughly the same thing as WoT. (and even then, not entirely)

[Errant Bard]

I never said these series were doing the same thing as WoT (why would I recommend series that try to copy the recipe of utter suckage anyway? :P)

ETA Thinking about it, what "thing" are we talking about? Because as you write it it's like "WoT does a WoT-like thing and ASOIAF does come close to doing a WoT-like thing". It's obvious that if you want to read a WoT-like thing, you have to read WoT, but that's kinda the point, you want to read other things.

(Also, no I'm not serious with the "suckage" bit, it's just that I cannot stand WoT's flaws, that they are more numerous in my eyes than in other people's, and that I am either indifferent or blind to the qualities it might possess). Still, I stand by what I said, there are better books to occupy your time, until you become so involved with the genre that you have to read prominent best-sellers just to be able to say you did and discuss them. Kinda like reading Twilight, Da Vinci Code, or Harry Potter.

[Arthmail]

I'm not sure why there are still fans of the series, just goes to show you that people will stay committed to something long after its time.

For me, the final straw as book five. It wasn't so much the story, or that it was starting to spread itself too thin. The world building was good, though claims to it being the best are exaggerated at best.

No, the problem is the female characters. They are ALL fucking retarded. I have never hated a group of characters more, and it only gets worse as time goes on.

EDIT: Please stop saying that stuff happened. Of course it did. But a point raised in defence stating that stuff happened, look at the number of Forsaken killed, brings up another point. The Forsaken, who were cool at the beginning, became caricatures later, because they simply refused to stay dead. The impact of the antagonists is removed the more they are made to look incompetent, and the more they seem unwilling to simply lay down and die.

[fionwe1987]

No, the problem is the female characters. They are ALL fucking retarded. I have never hated a group of characters more, and it only gets worse as time goes on.

Can you explain that further? As in, give specifics for why these women are all retarded?