Am I the only one who finds Wheel of Time overwriten and drawn out?

[fionwe1987]

ETA Thinking about it, what "thing" are we talking about? Because as you write it it's like "WoT does a WoT-like thing and ASOIAF does come close to doing a WoT-like thing". It's obvious that if you want to read a WoT-like thing, you have to read WoT, but that's kinda the point, you want to read other things.

I think the "thing" is that WoT bridges "old-school" quest type, black and white good and evil Fantasy with the new trend of gray characters, human problems (intead of being populated with a vast array of Elves, Dwarves, etc.) set in a fantasy world, etc.

At the very core, the only difference between WoT and aSoIaF is that in WoT, people know that the epic battle for the survival of humanity is coming, while they are ignorant of this fact in Song.

Another thing about WoT, one that I find unique, is that RJ fitted traditional seeming hero's journeys to his female characters, giving a very different flavor to pretty traditional story arcs. Whether this had any effect on the portrayal of women in epic fantasy is not something I'm sure of, but it is certainly different.

[Guest Nadine]

Can you explain that further? As in, give specifics for why these women are all retarded?

Every single female character is based on one real life human woman.

On a side note, what is the Braid tugging thing? =p Is that what the Princess Matt ran off with always does?

LOL, Tuon is bald. Don't think she is a braidtugger.

I used to be a huge WoT fan, RP'd and everything, but then PoD came out. Then Winter's Heart came out, then CoT came out and I was Done. I was dismayed at how such a good series became such shit. Then I read the chapters written by Brandon and my hope is alive again. I have also said that I am glad someone else is finishing the story, as sorry as I am that Jordan died.

[xythil]

Can you explain that further? As in, give specifics for why these women are all retarded?

Well yanking your braid all the time can't be good for your brain =0

Sorry couldn't resist

[Guest Nadine]

Well yanking your braid all the time can't be good for your brain =0

Sorry couldn't resist

:P

Nyn lost her brains when she stopped braid tugging. Which also involves a major complaint of mine about the series - Nyn goes from a hard headed sensible woman to a giddy rahtard as soon as she has sex.

:rolleyes: @RJ

[fionwe1987]

Every single female character is based on one real life human woman.

First off, since that woman is most certainly not retarded, I fail to see how this responds to my question.

Second, and more importantly, this is probably the worse when it comes to misinterpreting RJ's quotes. He said there's something of Harriet in most of the major characters. That does not mean all of them are Harriet clones!

I don't know how anyone can say Moiraine, Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Birgette, Aviendha, etc. are the same person. Most of them have nothing in common!

:P

Nyn lost her brains when she stopped braid tugging. Which also involves a major complaint of mine about the series - Nyn goes from a hard headed sensible woman to a giddy rahtard as soon as she has sex.

:rolleyes: @RJ

Ummm... what? Nynave has matured, become more mellow and a lot tougher since she married Lan. Maybe it was your general dislike of the series post-PoD that's making you see all the characters as idiots?

[Guest Nadine]

First off, since that woman is most certainly not retarded, I fail to see how this responds to my question.

Second, and more importantly, this is probably the worse when it comes to misinterpreting RJ's quotes. He said there's something of Harriet in most of the major characters. That does not mean all of them are Harriet clones!

I don't know how anyone can say Moiraine, Elayne, Egwene, Nynaeve, Cadsuane, Birgette, Aviendha, etc. are the same person. Most of them have nothing in common!

Ummm... what? Nynave has matured, become more mellow and a lot tougher since she married Lan. Maybe it was your general dislike of the series post-PoD that's making you see all the characters as idiots?

You are male, yes? Perhaps it takes the greater wisdom and understanding of a woman to see that every single woman in this series is different faces of the same woman. You know Harriet? Do share what you know based on your intimate knowledge of the woman. Also, review the bolded portion - I remember that interview well, because thats when I had the first glimmering that something was getting really crappy about the series and thought basing 80% of your characters off of one person was a true receipe for shite books.

Did you miss the part where Nyn has sex, then has to ask Elyane to help her be non-addled?

Edit: remember you and Arth used the word retarded. I had to poke at both of you for using such an inappropriate and invalid word.

[xythil]

:P

Nyn lost her brains when she stopped braid tugging. Which also involves a major complaint of mine about the series - Nyn goes from a hard headed sensible woman to a giddy rahtard as soon as she has sex.

:rolleyes: @RJ

w/ rand?

lol

[Guest Nadine]

Of course not. She had sex with Elyane. Its called being 'pillow friends'.

Rand has sex with everyone except Nyn.

[Silent Brother Clegane]

Well the series certainly is holding itself at bay as far as a second reading is concerned. However, I'm not at all sorry that I read this epic fantasy series. It is a great read, and the only major fantasy series that runs alongside ASoIaF. For serious fans of fantasy, there is no choice but to read this pillar of the genre.

I sense that there is a bit of animosity toward Jordan here. Guess that's to be expected on the biggest fan based forum for an author of the same genre. Just like going into a Ford dealership and asking about a Chevy, posting an I'm disillusioned with WOT thread on an ASoIaF forum one cannot expect an unbiased response.

The fact remains: Matrim Cauthon is one of the best fantasy characters there ever has been. Between Mat Cauthon, Tyrion Lannister and Prince Kheldar of Drasnia we find the holy trinity of roguish fantasy characters. I'm a rogue and I want to read about a rogue and there are none finer than Mat, and only a few who are his equal.

If for him alone, Bob was/will always be the man.

[xythil]

Of course not. She had sex with Elyane. Its called being 'pillow friends'.

Rand has sex with everyone except Nyn.

DAMN how did I miss this? Maybe I should give this series another go =p

[xythil]

Well the series certainly is holding itself at bay as far as a second reading is concerned. However, I'm not at all sorry that I read this epic fantasy series. It is a great read, and the only major fantasy series that runs alongside ASoIaF. For serious fans of fantasy, there is no choice but to read this pillar of the genre.

I sense that there is a bit of animosity toward Jordan here. Guess that's to be expected on the biggest fan based forum for an author of the same genre. Just like going into a Ford dealership and asking about a Chevy, posting an I'm disillusioned with WOT thread on an ASoIaF forum one cannot expect an unbiased response.

The fact remains: Matrim Cauthon is one of the best fantasy characters there ever has been. Between Mat Cauthon, Tyrion Lannister and Prince Kheldar of Drasnia we find the holy trinity of roguish fantasy characters. I'm a rogue and I want to read about a rogue and there are none finer than Mat, and only a few who are his equal.

If for him alone, Bob was/will always be the man.

i liked perrin more =0

[Ouroboros]

Of course not. She had sex with Elyane. Its called being 'pillow friends'.

Rand has sex with everyone except Nyn.

According to this interview I read a pillow friend isn't always a sex partner, just someone they share their troubles with. Sometimes its sexual, but that was the exception rather than the rule.

Last I checked Rand didn't sleep with Morgaine or Egwene but whatever.

[fionwe1987]

You are male, yes? Perhaps it takes the greater wisdom and understanding of a woman to see that every single woman in this series is different faces of the same woman.

This is a ridiculous argument. If only women can "get" female characters and only men can "get" male characters, then women have no business discussing most books, given how peppered they are with nmale characters. It is the laziest argument I've seen and is usually used to cover up for the fact that the poster cannot actually prove their ridiculous claims.

If you can, however, go ahead and show me how Nynaeve and Elayne, for example, are the same.

You know Harriet? Do share what you know based on your intimate knowledge of the woman.

Why is this even relevant? I'm saying she's far from retarded. Are you arguing that?

Also, review the bolded portion - I remember that interview well, because thats when I had the first glimmering that something was getting really crappy about the series and thought basing 80% of your characters off of one person was a true receipe for shite books.

I see. So the initial books were okay, but when Jordan stated that he had used some facet of Harriet in his characters, you suddenly decided that all the women were the same and the series was shit? Way to go...

Did you miss the part where Nyn has sex, then has to ask Elyane to help her be non-addled?

So, clearly a 26 year old virgin who has had sex for the first time (after believing for a long time that she'd gonna die a virgin) and therefore feels a little giddy and worried that she'll therefore make questionable decisions has gone permanently retarded! There's definitely some stupidity here, but it ain't coming from Nynaeve.

Edit: remember you and Arth used the word retarded. I had to poke at both of you for using such an inappropriate and invalid word.

Which is why you called her a "giddy rahtard"? Using the incorrect spelling makes it appropriate and valid? :rolleyes:

[Werthead]

According to this interview I read a pillow friend isn't always a sex partner, just someone they share their troubles with. Sometimes its sexual, but that was the exception rather than the rule.

Last I checked Rand didn't sleep with Morgaine or Egwene but whatever.

I think someone was cracking a joke. The only person Nynaeve has sex with in the whole series is Lan, and the first time was a good book or two before the whole 'pillow friend' explosion took place.

Moiraine and Siuan totally lezzed out in New Spring though :)

And seriously, haven't we got like three other 'WoT sucks! No it doesn't! Yes it sucks hard! Like your mother?' threads still active?

[Ouroboros]

That I'm not going to argue with.

[fionwe1987]

And seriously, haven't we got like three other 'WoT sucks! No it doesn't! Yes it sucks hard! Like your mother?' threads still active?

Its an interesting thing, isn't it? Within these boards, at least, it may well be the most divisive of epic fantasies. Sure, Erikson, Bakker and even Martin get argued over endlessly, but I've not seen nearly as many of those discussions.

I'm sure the upcoming release of tGS and the resultant buzz is contributing as well.

[Prince Who Was Promised]

This is ridiculos (yeah, I probably spelled it wrong). Could we try discussing this WITHOUT the attacks? Seriously?

Yes, a bit of Harriet is in every girl, but that doesn't make them exactly the same. Yes, the braid-tugging and skirt smoothing is annoying. Yes, the girls sometimes irritate me.

But Rand is AWESOME.

[fionwe1987]

Condescending? A bit - have you seen F's other posts? His constant attacks have begun to irritate me.

Attacks? I gave you aggressive arguments. You couldn't reply and started making personal attacks. Get off your high horse.

If you think only you are right, fine.

Just don't express those ideas in an open discussion forum and not expect to be questioned on them.

[xythil]

Thank you for taking the cowards way out. I think it goes a long way into explaining why WoT fandom is still alive... So many of its harshest critics can only throw about accusations and then cut and run when asked to prove anything.

To be fair my problem with WOT is not the characters or the story.. I actually quite enjoy them. My problem is the basic plotting of the book goes like this.

Problem Arises

Next 1000 pages describe what everyone is wearing

Last couple pages contain a cliffhanger

=p

[Ouroboros]

But Rand is AWESOME.

He's certainly an interesting presentation of the fantasy hero archetype.