261 replies to this topic

[Tarant]

Gigei, on Oct 25 2009, 18.14, said:

Er while the 10 books in the series tackles the Crippled God story arc, I don't believe it's actually *about* the Crippled God in that while the series has the problem of the Crippled God (and allies, obviously) in the background and as the start and end point, it focuses more on other people.

Hence, the reason why we know more about Herboric, Quick Ben, Apsalar, etc. than the Crippled God at least as far as book 8 (I haven't yet read DoD).

I'd say it's more about the Malazan Empire, with the theme of war and the fall of heroes great and small.

I would say that the series is about the Crippled God in the same way that the Lord of the Rings is about the One Ring.  I'm not claiming he's the main character but that he's the driving force and vortex of the plot.  However, like I said before the reason there is so much debate about what is or is not part of the series is that Erikson never clearly established who and what this series was about.  I mean you can claim the series is about the Malazan Empire--certainly the title backs that up--but then why are Midnight Tides and Toll the Hounds part of the series when they have virtually nothing to do with the Empire while Return of the Crimson Guard which features some of the biggest changes to the Empire so far is part of a different series.  Basically the series is never really clear what its about so whether or not book ten wraps things up.

[Lord Baelish]

Tarant, on Oct 26 2009, 00.39, said:

For instance, in the scene you mention Erikson has to downgrade the power of shadow demons by about a factor of ten from where it was earlier in the book and he has to make Cotillion a complete coward in order to get to the emotiona; moment he wants.  Erikson tends to try to tug on the heart strings in such an obvious and manipulative fashion that I inevitably end up rolling my eyes.  It's like a movie that piles on the sad music while never bothering to actual establish an emotional bond with the viewer.

What? Apt didn't get powered down at all. She was cut to pieces by Icarium, just about the most powerful character when he gets into one of his rages. And how does grieving over the deaths of hundreds of children make Cotillion a coward?

As for what the series is driving towards, it is the Crippled God. Everything is about him. Most of the characters that have been introduced are working to free/kill/chain the CG. The last book is called The Crippled God for a reason.

Spoilers for Dust of Dreams coming up, relating to motivations of gods and the Bonehunters/Tavore.

SPOILER: DoD

The Bonehunters are going to break the CG free of his chains. That is what Tavore needs her army for - to get her close enough through the ranks of Forkrul Assail and who knows what else that's standing in the way. The point of the soldier POVs is to emphasise the sacrifice Tavore is prepared to make, by sending all these people into a situation that will almost certainly mean their deaths. It works for me because their deaths will have an emotional impact on me. I do see, however, why other people might not like it. The screentime he has given to these soldiers could be seen as a little excessive, but I don't mind because I love the likes of Throatslitter and Deadsmell, for example.

The various gods and ascendants that have been introduced throughout the series are either planning to chan the CG again and bleed him of all his power or plan on destroying the warrens of magic through other means. Characters that have passed through ohter books without seeming all that important are revealed to be very important after all. For example, Olar Ethil plays a prominent role in Dust of Dreams. This is why I'm not prepared to say the series lacks direction before finishing the last book. Erikson has planned this series in detail (certain timeline issues aside).

I agree with you to an extent that book 8 didn't seem to contribute much towards the overall plot and that's the reason I rate it as one of the poorer books in the series. As far as I can tell, only two events from that book will have an impact on hte remaining books - Hood's release as Lord of Death and Draconus being returned to the world.

I'm unashamed to admit that I am an Erikson fanboy. I don't care that seemingly key characters - Apsalar, Crokus, Karsa - probably won't have a role in the finale. These characters had roles to play in earlier books that are important towards what is doing to happen, but that doesn't mean they have to be there at the end.

[keithweed]

I think Gorgenmast's manifesto made sense as far as the two series are concerned.

[Gigei]

Tarant, on Oct 26 2009, 05.06, said:

I would say that the series is about the Crippled God in the same way that the Lord of the Rings is about the One Ring.  I'm not claiming he's the main character but that he's the driving force and vortex of the plot.

100% agreed.

It's not really clearly defined as such, I mean this *is* Erikson. ;)

Quote

However, like I said before the reason there is so much debate about what is or is not part of the series is that Erikson never clearly established who and what this series was about.  I mean you can claim the series is about the Malazan Empire--certainly the title backs that up--but then why are Midnight Tides and Toll the Hounds part of the series when they have virtually nothing to do with the Empire while Return of the Crimson Guard which features some of the biggest changes to the Empire so far is part of a different series.  Basically the series is never really clear what its about so whether or not book ten wraps things up.

Why, I imagine the Malazan empire will have to deal with the Letherii and Edur, MT had to be done because it would be really weird if people just turned up  :wideeyed:  and we didn't know who they were at all, despite the fact that they were the Crippled God's allies. That's pretty much covered in the "Malazan empire enemies/people who have to be dealt with" part.

Kinda like if you wrote a series about America in WWII you would be pretty much justified in showing other countries...

IIRC Rake and the Andii in TtH were

SPOILER: do we need to spoiler? oh well, it can't hurt

already allied with the Empire, this was right after they helped out Whiskeyjack over the Pannion stuff, right? Hellian even mentioned that the only worse military posting she can think of was "in Black Coral under the soulles eyes of the Tiste Andii" which to me would pretty much imply that Malaz is *directly* involved there.

[Tarant]

Quote

What? Apt didn't get powered down at all. She was cut to pieces by Icarium, just about the most powerful character when he gets into one of his rages. And how does grieving over the deaths of hundreds of children make Cotillion a coward?

SPOILER: Bonhunters

I was actually talking about the Azalath demons.  At one point Kalam unleashes one that takes apart several hundred soldiers in the space of a few seconds.  There's not really any way to protect yourself from something that fast.  Similarly,  Dancer's work on Drift Avali does a good job of showing just how dangerous and fast he is (as does Sorry's shadowdance at the end of Bonehunters).  Shadowthrone has also shown some very impressive powers.  The Rope probably could have dealt with the entire Edur army by himself.  Instead he had a bunch of children fight his battle for him.

If you like the Bonehunters that's fine.  I already briefly outlined why I don't like them.  I don't think spending significant amounts of time on them for three books is really justified because the author wanted you to feel sad when he killed them in book 4 though.  I still would have vastly preferred having important characters like Tavore as a point of view rather than random scrub marines.

Gigei said:

Why, I imagine the Malazan empire will have to deal with the Letherii and Edur, MT had to be done because it would be really weird if people just turned up wideeyed.gif and we didn't know who they were at all, despite the fact that they were the Crippled God's allies. That's pretty much covered in the "Malazan empire enemies/people who have to be dealt with" part.

Kinda like if you wrote a series about America in WWII you would be pretty much justified in showing other countries...

But the series is littered with races and people turning up out of nowhere (see the Perish).  The Tiste Edur actually have a fairly good introduction even before Midnight Tides.  They are mentioned in Deadhouse Gates when people are investigating the Silanda, they are mentioned in Memories of Ice, and we meet Trull in House of Chains.  I haven't read past The Bonehunters so I won't comment on whether or not Midnight Tides needed to be written, but if the series is about the Malazan Empire there's no question that a book about a huge civil war and major restructuring of the Empire is more important than a book that barely even mentions the title Empire.

Arthmail said:

I have yet to see anyone compare them to anime or comic books in a derisive tone, as more often than not people that enjoy fantasy enjoy those other forms of medium as well. Though, it is a good point that Erikson does have that flair to him.

I'm of the opinion that people are applying terms like comic book and anime to Erikson's work in a derisive manner.  I certainly don't think they mean it as a compliment.

Gormenghast said:

If I make a project to build an house, set a timeframe and budget. Then I go on to build the house and in the end it takes twice the time, twice the budget, and there's no roof. Am I allowed to call the project a "failure"?

I didn't say ASoIaF was a failure because it sucks or because it wasn't successful enough. I called it a failure, as a project, because Martin himself wasn't able to match his own promises and doesn't seem to be able to stay ahead of the thing and give it a proper closure (objectively as in: maintaining his own declared plan of writing and finishing the series in 7 books).

While objectively you may be correct, I don't know think you're really saying anything of value.  Obviously, you could make plenty of objective arguments that Martin is a success and Erikson is a failure ($$$ being the easiest), but I don't think that'd really mean much, though it would certainly mean more than the argument your making.  Your argument says that my dad had a success with building his house while Ludwig had a failure with building Neuschwanstein castle; Tolkien's Silmarillion (sp) was a failure while Jim Theis's The Eye of Argon was a success.;The Dune series is failure but Sword of Truth is a success.

To continue the house analogy.  Martin and Erikson are both working on a new housing developments.  Martin is years behind on his project, but the houses he's finished are made from the very best materials and display superb craftsmanship.  Erikson has finished his houses on time but the material is subpar and the craftsmanship is abysmal.  The roofs leak, boards are already warping, and he never bothered installing plumbing and electricity.  

As you can see I don't find these metaphors particularly helpful, though they are fun to write.  The main point, in my mind is that Erikson has been very unclear about what the plot of his series is (which has also been a problem with the individual books of the series since Deadhouse Gates) which has lead to multiple interpretations and indicates all sorts of fascinating things about the series and Erikson, but labeling one a success or failure seems like pointless fanboyism to me.

Edited by Tarant, 26 October 2009 - 06:17 PM.

[Shryke]

Quote

I'm of the opinion that people are applying terms like comic book and anime to Erikson's work in a derisive manner. I certainly don't think they mean it as a compliment.

I certainly don't.

Edited by Shryke, 26 October 2009 - 06:21 PM.

[williamjm]

Tarant, on Oct 26 2009, 23.12, said:

But the series is littered with races and people turning up out of nowhere (see the Perish).  The Tiste Edur actually have a fairly good introduction even before Midnight Tides.  They are mentioned in Deadhouse Gates when people are investigating the Silanda, they are mentioned in Memories of Ice, and we meet Trull in House of Chains.  I haven't read past The Bonehunters so I won't comment on whether or not Midnight Tides needed to be written, but if the series is about the Malazan Empire there's no question that a book about a huge civil war and major restructuring of the Empire is more important than a book that barely even mentions the title Empire.

I'm a couple of hundred pages from the end of Dust of Dreams at the moment, I would say at this stage it does look like the climax to the series will have more to do with Letheras than a lot of the major plots in previous books (especially since books 7, 9 and presumably 10 mostly take place on the same continent as Letheras). The events in Return of the Crimson Guard on the other hand, seem unlikely to have much direct impact on the end of the Crippled God storyline even if it may be very important to the Malazan Empire, similarly plotlines such as the Chain of Dogs or most of the Darujhstan plotlines don't have that much impact on the CG plot. Overall I think it may be more a series about the Malazan soldiers (the title refers to them directly) rather than the Empire itself, while the Empire may be distant from the likely climax of the story there will be plenty of Malazan soldiers involved.

[Gormenghast]

Tarant, on Oct 27 2009, 01.12, said:

To continue the house analogy.  Martin and Erikson are both working on a new housing developments.  Martin is years behind on his project, but the houses he's finished are made from the very best materials and display superb craftsmanship.  Erikson has finished his houses on time but the material is subpar and the craftsmanship is abysmal.  The roofs leak, boards are already warping, and he never bothered installing plumbing and electricity.

But here you leave the context to express your personal opinion.

Quote

but labeling one a success or failure seems like pointless fanboyism to me.

I went there because people started to say that Erikson should learn to write from Martin.

My point was: by Martin's standards the Malazan series wouldn't exist. You just can't write a series as broad and ambitious throughout 20 years or more. No one can humanly handle it. So, as a project, it would be doomed to fail.

Erikson wrote his series in the only way it was possible to realize it, without losing complexity and within human limits. Taking more time from my point of view would mean failure and I don't even think that the quality would improve all that much (because while you can take care more about the details, you also risk to lose control, focus and deliberateness).

[williamjm]

Gormenghast, on Oct 27 2009, 00.25, said:

My point was: by Martin's standards the Malazan series wouldn't exist. You just can't write a series as broad and ambitious throughout 20 years or more. No one can humanly handle it. So, as a project, it would be doomed to fail.

I disagree that it impossible to write an ambitious series over a period of over 20 years. There are several examples, Stephen King's Dark Tower series took 22 years to write 7 novels - I haven't read it but from what I've heard it doesn't lack in ambition. Feist's Riftwar Saga has currently been going for 27 years with over 20 books which have almost all had some connection to a single overall plot thread and he looks well on his way to finish the series in the next three or four years (I believe it is three books left to go). Now, I don't think it is quite as complex as Malazan and in recent years the quality has been declining but it does show that it is possible to write a multi-volume Epic Fantasy over three decades without losing sight of the main story (although some of the continuity errors in the later Riftwar books make Erikson's worst continuity issues seem comparatively mild).

[Nerdanel]

Yesterday I visited the only local bookstore with a decent selection of English books. There was a long row of various Erikson books on the shelves and the new trade paperbacks of Dust of Dreams were prominently displayed. (I didn't buy one though; I'm waiting for the mmpb.) Erikson certainly looks like he's popular around here.

TtH is widely derided on this forum, so I'm going to take a look at the storythreads in it and whether they were/will be resolved.

Almost certainly won't be resolved within the remaining series:

SPOILER: TtH

1. The return of the Tyrant
2. Humble Measure's mad ambitions and the Bridgeburner vendetta
3. Karsa

Good chance of being resolved or at least addressed within the remaining series, and in any case don't need a return to Darujhistan:

SPOILER: TtH

1. The consequences of the death god's death
2. The consequences of the moon blowing up
3. The consequences of Draconus's freedom, along with the rest
4. Whatever Paran is up to
5. Whatever Gothos is up to with the Azath
6. Mappo and Gruntle's journey to Lether

Issues solved within TtH and don't require returning to:

SPOILER: TtH

1. The Dying God problems are over.
2. The alienation between Mother Dark and the Tiste Andii has ended.
3. Dragnipur is destroyed and nobody got it.
4. Anomander Rake is dead and Nimander reigns in Dark Coral.
5. Clip's schemes failed spectacularly.
6. Harllo is free from slavery and accepted by his mother.
7. Gorlas Vidikas has been dealt with and Challice is dead.
8. Picker and Blend's relationship issues are over.
9. Iskaral Pust seduced the object of his desire.
10. Torvald Nom came back and found his place.
11. The Gaz/Thordy stuff is over.
12. The cop with the bad heart and the loving family died and was resurrected.
13. Murillio died with boots on.
14. Cutter grew as a person and changed his name back.
15. The imprisoned T'lan Imass got imprisoned again.

I think one of the problems people have with TtH is that it contained a lot of misdirection on the part of the author so that what seemed important turned out not to be and the really crucial stuff came from the left field.

I wouldn't be surprised if the main point of the Krul's Bar storyline turned out to be the introduction of Fisher.

[blackzoid]

First post here, but I am a member of Malazanempire and have read these Westros threads with interest.

A few points:

1: Where are people getting the quote that China Mieville said that "Martin is not your bitch"
Neil Gaiman was the one who said it:
http://journal.neilg...ent-issues.html
Did China Miéville say it at some other point as well?

2: As Neil said in that piece,

"It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time."

While the thrust of his piece was about Martin, this paragraph could easily be used about Erikson. People complain that Erikson's later books past Book 3 or Book 5 (its usually one of those 2 points) are inferior, but that's a matter of subjective opinion. I don't like Book 7 and parts of book 9 because the sheer number of useless minor Bonehunter POV's was extremely annoying.  However, I adore TTH and TBH (books 8 and 6).  Its all subjective

And has been said some authors have different ways of writing,  thats all.  Erikson writing in the Martin way might not work at all.

Erikson is not your bitch either.

3: On the claim that he is spreading out the storylines to his writing partner or to following stories written by himself. Its a some-what fairish comment.
Erikson is writing:
The Kharkanas Trilogy, this is unrelated to the Malazan sequence as its probably going to be set entirly in the past and will explore the Tiste history. Its not necessary really.
The Toblaki trilogy: This will presumably carry on the story of Karsa. Its a fair point that this could have been in the main sequence. Unless Karsa was to be killed in which case, there would be no need to do this. (Side-bar, I wish Karsa was to be killed off as I can't stand him)

Esslemont has written:
Night of Knives: A book explaining the assassination  of the Emperor and Dancer. This book was unnecessary as everything in it was explained in the main books.
Return of the Crimson Guard: It really WAS necessary to be an Erikson book, as the ending will presumably favour very much in The Crippled God.
Stonewielder: To be written by Esslemont. Its to be set on Korel, and will deal with the Malazan Campaign there and the Stormriders. Not in the main storylines at all. Builds on stuff from Retrun of the Crimson Guard.
Darujhistan Book: To be written by Esslemont. This may deal with Karsa/Kallor/The Tyrant. I think these issues should have been delt with in TTH (although I love the book as it is) and  can be considered integral to the main sequence.
Jacurraku Book: To be written by Esslemont: No idea what this will be about. (other than the setting) Could be the end of Kallor? Who knows?
Assail Book: About Assail and Silverfox/Tlan Imass. I don't think Assail was a major story thread in the main Malazan books, just a name of fear.

So thats 10 (Erikson Malazan ones) + 3 (Toblaki trilogy) + 2-3 of Esslemont books.
15-16 books.  Or you could be strict and say that EVERYTHING written belongs in the main sequence, in which case thats 22 books. I don't think thats a fair charge really. Some of Esslemonts books won't deal with the the Crippled God storyline, while some have/will  
But of course your millage may vary.

4: Erikson has said that people either love or hate his books. I think he is right, based on this thread and others there is  no middle ground.  As to the idea of Martin versus Erikson and whose series is a failure. Neither book series is. I personally like them both.  Martin is an amazing writer of characters who inhabit a great political story. Erikson writes great fantasy opera using a breathtaking sense of history. Its apples to oranges. Neither is "better"

Edited by blackzoid, 27 October 2009 - 05:58 AM.

[Gigei]

blackzoid, on Oct 27 2009, 05.50, said:

First post here, but I am a member of Malazanempire and have read these Westros threads with interest.

Greetings.

I hate Karsa, too.

I liked the Neil Gaiman blog entry about GRRM not being my bitch.  :smileysex:

[wolverine]

blackzoid, on Oct 27 2009, 05.50, said:

Erikson has said that people either love or hate his books. I think he is right, based on this thread and others there is  no middle ground.

I am kind of in the middle with his books.  I really liked a couple but am definitely not a lover or hater.  Although, I was very close to hating TTH.

[Eurytus]

blackzoid, on Oct 27 2009, 03.50, said:

4: Erikson has said that people either love or hate his books. I think he is right, based on this thread and others there is no middle ground. As to the idea of Martin versus Erikson and whose series is a failure. Neither book series is. I personally like them both. Martin is an amazing writer of characters who inhabit a great political story. Erikson writes great fantasy opera using a breathtaking sense of history. Its apples to oranges. Neither is "better"

Actually I think a larger number people view Erikson in exactly the same way as they do Jordan. A series that started out well, particularly books 2 & 3, but which is now hopelessly adrift.
I don't hate the Malazan world, I don't hate all the books set therein, but I increasingly dislike what he has done to it.

And as per further upthread, I am one of those who compared Erikson to Manga and I did not mean it as a compliment.

[Lord Baelish]

Tarant:

A Tavore POV wouldn't work for the same reason a Howland Reed POV wouldn't. She knows too much. If we got her POV in House of Chains and she thought about her plans for the future it would take away most of tension with the people around her trying to work out what she is planning and how she thinks.

[williamjm]

blackzoid, on Oct 27 2009, 10.50, said:

4: Erikson has said that people either love or hate his books. I think he is right, based on this thread and others there is  no middle ground.

I'm not sure that is really backed up by the thread. Erikson did get some criticism for assorted things but most of those critics were people who had liked the series enough to buy 8 or 9 books and had in some cases attended Erikson's book signings or joined the MalazanEmpire forum, I don't think you could really say that hated his books even if they didn't love the whole series unreservedly. Of course, there are also quite a few people on this forum who did hate the books and couldn't even get through Gardens of the Moon but saying it is all love or hate is a bit simplistic.

[Shryke]

Yea, this "You either love it or hate it" thing is bullshit. This thread is full of people who think the series has gone downhill, which means they liked it at first and like it less now.

Shit, the people who point out how fucking terrible TtH was read 7 massive books first, so obviously they enjoyed the series.

[Nerdanel]

And I think Toll the Hounds was the best since Midnight Tides while Reaper's Gale was the deeply disappointing one. There is certainly some love-or-hate going on here but not as much with the entire series as individual books.

Six things I liked most about TtH, in order:
1. Kallor! (Now edging close to displacing Shadowthrone as my favorite character.)
2. The Dying God creepiness.
3. The fireworks at the end.
4. Seerdomin.
5. Kharkanas backstory.
6. Harllo's storythread.

[Padraig]

Shryke, on Oct 27 2009, 23.15, said:

Yea, this "You either love it or hate it" thing is bullshit. This thread is full of people who think the series has gone downhill, which means they liked it at first and like it less now.

The "love it or hate it" line very rarely applies to anything.  It is used a lot because its a nice reaction to create.  If somebody dislikes your work, they may as well hate it.  Nice to cause such an emotional response. :)

I find the Malazan books entertaining enough.  Not that I have read them all.

[williamjm]

Nerdanel, on Oct 27 2009, 23.43, said:

And I think Toll the Hounds was the best since Midnight Tides while Reaper's Gale was the deeply disappointing one. There is certainly some love-or-hate going on here but not as much with the entire series as individual books.

I did prefer TtH to Reaper's Gale as well. They were both rambling and overlong and mostly consisting of build-up to the big climax at the end, but at least TtH had a good ending to justify the build-up whereas the end of RG should have been awesome but instead ended up being disappointing and underwhelming.