261 replies to this topic

[Fireball07]

I  would just like to state that I thought that TBH was the high point of the series, an absolutely fantastic book IMO. The second half of Reaper's Gale was excellent aswell IMO, with the first half not so much.

I haven't read this whole topic, but my ranking would be:

TBH>MoI>MT>RG>HoC>DG>TtH>GotM

I haven't got Dust of Dreams yet.

[Shryke]

williamjm, on Oct 27 2009, 20.34, said:

I did prefer TtH to Reaper's Gale as well. They were both rambling and overlong and mostly consisting of build-up to the big climax at the end, but at least TtH had a good ending to justify the build-up whereas the end of RG should have been awesome but instead ended up being disappointing and underwhelming.

The problem is that TtH lacked anything BUT the ending. There's nothign else there. Virtually all of the first 9/10ths of the book could be eliminated and you'd miss nothing.

[RedEyedGhost]

And another Malazan thread completely derailed.  Don't you just love how predictable this board is sometimes?

wolverine, on Oct 27 2009, 10.08, said:

blackzoid, on Oct 27 2009, 04.50, said:

4: Erikson has said that people either love or hate his books. I think he is right, based on this thread and others there is  no middle ground.

I am kind of in the middle with his books.  I really liked a couple but am definitely not a lover or hater.  Although, I was very close to hating TTH.

To think that people can only love and hate his books... Erikson sure thinks a lot of himself doesn't he?  

Personally, I've become pretty apathetic towards them.  I've like some and disliked others, and when the series is completed I'll read the last three books.  I don't think I'll read the Tiste trilogy because they're boring as fuck, but I will read the Toblaki series because Karsa is a very intriguing (if despicable) character.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Karsa despicable? Not at all, he starts out that way sorta, but in terms of tribal society, he's completely normal, I mean, he's only despicable by modern Western moral standards.  These days Karsa seems more like a hero than an antihero. I mean he still hasn't raped that Seven Cities woman that follows him everywhere. (I haven't read DoD, but I don't expect that fact to have changed...)

Edited by Jurble, 27 October 2009 - 10:29 PM.

[blackzoid]

Jurble, on Oct 27 2009, 23.28, said:

Karsa despicable? Not at all, he starts out that way sorta, but in terms of tribal society, he's completely normal, I mean, he's only despicable by modern Western moral standards.  These days Karsa seems more like a hero than an antihero. I mean he still hasn't raped that Seven Cities woman that follows him everywhere. (I haven't read DoD, but I don't expect that fact to have changed...)

Karsa fully intends to commit genocide via the act of destroying civilisation.
How is that not despicable? If he changed his mind, ya then he is an anti-hero, but until he does, I'm rooting for anyone he meets to kill him.


As for Erikson being a love/hate series, well Erikson said as much in his new intro to Garden's of the Moon. If ye think thats arrogant of him, thats fine. But almsot everyone I have seen on various threads (on various boards) has a strong opinion about the books. Whether they think they are good, were good but are now rubbish  or were always rubbish, they have a strong opinion. Very few have a middle of the road view of the books.

Of course people who bother to post in message boards probably have a stronger opinion then the readers who were apathetic to them. So my interpretation may be wrong on that count.

[Tarant]

Jurble, on Oct 27 2009, 20.28, said:

Karsa despicable? Not at all, he starts out that way sorta, but in terms of tribal society, he's completely normal, I mean, he's only despicable by modern Western moral standards.  These days Karsa seems more like a hero than an antihero. I mean he still hasn't raped that Seven Cities woman that follows him everywhere. (I haven't read DoD, but I don't expect that fact to have changed...)

LoL.   dude, Karsa is totally good these days.  There's like this one chick that follows him around all the time and he hasn't raped her yet.  The man is practically a saint.

Sorry, Jurble, I know you probably didn't mean it like that but it was too funny to resist.  I will point out that Karsa is considered abnormal by his society's standards, though.

On the subject of loving or hating the series, I pretty much agree with everyone else. I loved Gardens of the Moon and hated The Bonehunters (fireball07 must be my mirror universe counterpart).  Malazan is probably the most divisive series of books I've ever come across.  Most series have a fairly uniform opinion among fandom but Malazan is deeply divided on just about every issue.  Many Erikson fanboys think Midnight Tides is Erikson's best book while another group rates it as the worst.  I think I like to discuss Erikson because I love his ideas but hate his execution.  There are a lot of authors that I don't like; normally this means I drop them quickly and never look back.  Erikson is different; his books are a constant battle between the bits I love and the parts I hate.  Erikson frequently misses the mark, but at least the mark was interesting and his bow is lovely.  If he could just stay on target he'd be awesome.

Rydel, yes having a Tavore PoV would reveal somethings that Erikson wants kept hidden (though I think it would serve the story better if they were revealed), but my point is she's a very interesting character.  She's had to sacrifice family members to reach her position, she's secretly scheming with nobles and talons, she serves the Empire but yet must betray it to save the world, she's young and inexperienced and fate has thrust great demands on her, her girlfriend is possessed, she must inspire her troops but also maintain the emotional distance needed to send them all to their death.

But instead Erikson chooses to focus on characters like Koryk and Smiles and how they pass the time. Ugh.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

blackzoid, on Oct 28 2009, 06.21, said:

Karsa fully intends to commit genocide via the act of destroying civilisation.
How is that not despicable? If he changed his mind, ya then he is an anti-hero, but until he does, I'm rooting for anyone he meets to kill him.

Karsa sees how weak the world is, and how strong his people are, it'd be like saying Genghis Khan was a villain. Genghis Khan was awesome. In fact, a lot of Karsa's life mirror's Temujin's.

[Fireball07]

Karsa may be despicable on the grounds of what he means to do, but that doesn't stop him from being one of the best characters in the books. And the chances of anyone killing him are very unlikely too, considering he's the best fighter around.

[Gigei]

Jurble, on Oct 27 2009, 23.28, said:

Karsa despicable? Not at all, he starts out that way sorta, but in terms of tribal society, he's completely normal,

Uh no. Even in his own society, Karsa wasn't normal. He was estranged from his father and had no other family except for a crazy lying grandfather. His father's low social status made him go too far in the other direction.

Remember how he didn't get the girl? Karsa had no clue whatsoever rofl.

He raided and raped, which was par for the course in the tribes but he took it too far there, too, by using blood oil which is  considered too dangerous.

In his community Karsa is like that crazy unrealistic bastard who doesn't fit in at all and people laugh at him behind his back because he is *such* a horrible misfit who takes things way too far.

Edited by Gigei, 28 October 2009 - 09:49 AM.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Jurble, on Oct 28 2009, 07.21, said:

Karsa sees how weak the world is, and how strong his people are, it'd be like saying Genghis Khan was a villain. Genghis Khan was awesome. In fact, a lot of Karsa's life mirror's Temujin's.

Um... in what way?  I've read a lot about Mr. Temujin and I can't think of a single similarity, beyond coming from a tribal and militaristic society.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Both Karsa and Genghis were temporarily enslaved, after which they escaped, and went on to be awesome. It's been a long time since I read the "Secret History of the Mongols" or whatever it's called. Good book.  But that's what came to my mind.  Temujin also had a lot of years when he was relatively low-key, just the head of his tribe (pretty tenuously at that), the dude didn't start get rolling until he was pretty old.

[RedEyedGhost]

Jurble, on Oct 27 2009, 21.28, said:

Karsa despicable? Not at all, he starts out that way sorta, but in terms of tribal society, he's completely normal, I mean, he's only despicable by modern Western moral standards.  These days Karsa seems more like a hero than an antihero. I mean he still hasn't raped that Seven Cities woman that follows him everywhere. (I haven't read DoD, but I don't expect that fact to have changed...)

I think it's been stated well already, but Karsa is completely despicable.  He wants to kill everything not of his race.  Was Hitler not despicable?  He also thought his "race" was superior, and was happy to kill men/women/children of other "races".

blackzoid, on Oct 28 2009, 04.21, said:

As for Erikson being a love/hate series, well Erikson said as much in his new intro to Garden's of the Moon. If ye think thats arrogant of him, thats fine. But almsot everyone I have seen on various threads (on various boards) has a strong opinion about the books. Whether they think they are good, were good but are now rubbish  or were always rubbish, they have a strong opinion. Very few have a middle of the road view of the books.

That whole new intro is just Erikson jerking himself off for all the world to see.  It's quite embarrassing, and I'm surprised that his publishers actually put it in the book.

[Gigei]

Jurble, on Oct 28 2009, 21.19, said:

Both Karsa and Genghis were temporarily enslaved, after which they escaped, and went on to be awesome. It's been a long time since I read the "Secret History of the Mongols" or whatever it's called. Good book.  But that's what came to my mind.  Temujin also had a lot of years when he was relatively low-key, just the head of his tribe (pretty tenuously at that), the dude didn't start get rolling until he was pretty old.

Nice. I didn't realize there was a parallel there.

[Bombjack]

Quote

I think it's been stated well already, but Karsa is completely despicable. He wants to kill everything not of his race.

I thought Karsa's planned war was supposed to be targeted at "civilisation" rather than humanity or any other race. Not that there would be much effective difference for those on the receiving end, but it's a significant point in assessing Karsa's character.

I don't have the books to hand, but my lasting impression is that what Karsa now hates is slavery - and his experiences of civilisation have convinced him that the two are synonymous. Of course Karsa has only seen 1) Genabackis under Malazan occupation (briefly) 2) Seven Cities in full-blown and disastrous rebellion and 3) Lether under Edur occupation. It's hardly any wonder his view of society is skewed - but I wonder if time in Darujhistan might mellow his views.

[kcf]

I've got 5 copies of the 10th Anniversary Edition of Gardens of the Moon by Erikson up for grabs. No geographic constraints. Good luck.

[wolverine]

Bombjack, on Oct 29 2009, 09.07, said:

I thought Karsa's planned war was supposed to be targeted at "civilisation" rather than humanity or any other race. Not that there would be much effective difference for those on the receiving end, but it's a significant point in assessing Karsa's character.

I don't have the books to hand, but my lasting impression is that what Karsa now hates is slavery - and his experiences of civilisation have convinced him that the two are synonymous. Of course Karsa has only seen 1) Genabackis under Malazan occupation (briefly) 2) Seven Cities in full-blown and disastrous rebellion and 3) Lether under Edur occupation. It's hardly any wonder his view of society is skewed - but I wonder if time in Darujhistan might mellow his views.

I would agree with this assessment.



I found the comparison of Genghis Khan to Hitler interesting.  One difference is that Mongolians targeted all peoples (as non-Mongols) unless they were useful, but not for simple annihilation (unless they pissed him off).  Where as Hitler targeted very specific races or characteristics to exterminate them from Earth.  This also brings up another thread about how to assess morality/character traits within their historical context.

Edited by wolverine, 05 November 2009 - 01:19 PM.

[Gormenghast]

About the 10th Anniversary edition. I have my copy and written some notes on malazan forums.

It has a new 2-page forewords where Erikson basically takes back what he wrote in the previous one. I'll probably copy it over to my blog if the publisher doesn't think it's illegal.

A quick quote:
I have a tale to tell and until it is done an inexorable momentum drives me, an impatience against which I still struggle, knowing I need to do it right, and that haste is my deadliest enemy. Especially now.

[...]

For me, it was the push to advance the story versus the pull to keep it under control, to hold tight on the reins no matter how wild the bucking beast. For the reader, the whole thing reverses: the story pulls, the details prod, claw and tug.

[Rhom]

I get frustrated by the inconsistencies with American/British publishers on the series.  I finally read Night of Knives, but still haven't read RotCG because I can't get it in paperback like the rest of my MBotF collection.  Meanwhile, Lees of Laughter's End has shown up on the shelf of my local B&N in Hardback but I would still have to order from overseas to get the non-Erikson books.  Just confusing all around.

[Serious Callers Only]

Jurble, on Oct 28 2009, 12.21, said:

Karsa sees how weak the world is, and how strong his people are, it'd be like saying Genghis Khan was a villain. Genghis Khan was awesome. In fact, a lot of Karsa's life mirror's Temujin's.

Idiot.

Edit: More like idiot troll trolls effectively.

Edited by Serious Callers Only, 10 November 2009 - 05:07 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Now I'm sad.