261 replies to this topic

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Timeline problem #1 : Gruntle's woman friend's son is like age 5, and Cutter just arrived back in Darujhistan in TtH, unless the trip from Malaz Island to Darujhistan takes 5 years, something is terribly, terribly wrong with the timeline.

[Shryke]

The timeline is fucked all to hell now. There's no saving it.

And really, the timeline is like the perfect example of Erikson's main problem: Lack of Discipline

He needs to learn the wonders of planning, editing, rewriting, etc.

His books, more and more, read like he had a good initial outline and idea and then while writing he suddenly had this "really cool idea" or he'd just read this "really interesting book" or whatever and he's decided to shove it straight down  the story's throat and to hell with whether it fits or not. And then never rewrite anything to make the book more clear or coherent. Oh, and also never explain ANYTHING.

Toll The Hounds is like the perfect shit storm of the problems with his writing. A fucking turd of a book that fucks up established story left and right, all to shoe-horn in a poorly done theme of "family" and to showcase an annoying writing style he so loves. Oh, and "deep" philosophy to. Gotta cram that shit in there as well.

[kungtotte]

Jurble, on Oct 22 2009, 06.33, said:

Timeline problem #1 : Gruntle's woman friend's son is like age 5, and Cutter just arrived back in Darujhistan in TtH, unless the trip from Malaz Island to Darujhistan takes 5 years, something is terribly, terribly wrong with the timeline.

It's a long trip for Cutter. It's not five years long but it's not five months either, probably somewhere along the lines of a year or perhaps even two. I'm not refuting that the time-line is beyond salvage, it's just that in the grand scheme of things this one issue is pretty minor.

SPOILER: Toll the Hounds

I mean, do a quick count on your fingers roughly how long Karsa Orlong has been away from Teblor lands, and then ask yourself how the spawn of his rapes back in Teblor lands have managed to age to about 15 years.

And Toll the Hounds is really the worst book in the series. 1200 pages of incoherent rambling.

[End of Disc One]

I find it hilarious that any fan of GRRM can accuse Erikson for lack of discipline.

[Nerdanel]

Well, I happen to think that Toll the Hounds is the best Malazan book since Memories of Ice.

No rebuttals on the timeline though. I think the only way to make it remotely coherent is to add Warren-related time anomalies (possibly caused by gods) here and there.

[kungtotte]

End of Disc One, on Oct 22 2009, 15.34, said:

I find it hilarious that any fan of GRRM can accuse Erikson for lack of discipline.

Did you really have to go there? If GRRM removed his inner filter and just spewed words onto the page I'm pretty sure he could match Erikson's publishing pace. And I'm pretty sure the quality would match too.

[End of Disc One]

kungtotte, on Oct 22 2009, 08.55, said:

Did you really have to go there? If GRRM removed his inner filter and just spewed words onto the page I'm pretty sure he could match Erikson's publishing pace. And I'm pretty sure the quality would match too.

You're right I shouldn't have gone there, considering what board I'm on.  I'm definitely not going to convince anyone here.

[Gormenghast]

This is really an objective problem that doesn't need to be resolved through factions:

It's pretty clear that Erikson in the end works for himself, not unlike Martin. The timeline issues are simply elements that he doesn't think are important.

They are important for me, for you. He simply doesn't think that those few inconsistencies are worth all the added work that would be required to nail them down and that they ruin the book. He also has signed a contract and committed to deliver exactly what he thought he could deliver and wanted to deliver.

You decide if those details affect the quality of the series as a whole in a relevant way.

Imho, I think Erikson pace of writing and discipline is what maintained the quality. Keeping himself extremely focused on his destination and writing intent.

He is one of the most "deliberate" of writers I know. And I think this is quite a contrast on what most consider "ramblings". I think Erikson always have a point and strong control.

Edited by Gormenghast, 22 October 2009 - 09:24 AM.

[Relic]

End of Disc One, on Oct 22 2009, 10.01, said:

You're right I shouldn't have gone there, considering what board I'm on.  I'm definitely not going to convince anyone here.

I, for one, understand.

[Gormenghast]

I'd add:

By Martin way of doing things the Malazan series would have taken 50 years. So it's really not an alternative to consider. It already took Erikson more than 10 years. That's as far you can push an ambitious project.

So what I say, again, is that Erikson's way of doing this was the only possible way to do it. Flaws and all.

This Martin's way versus Erikson's way is not "quality versus quantity".

It's: "things getting done versus things not getting done"

At the end of the day you have to decide if you want to bring things back to the ground and in the realm of what's plausible. Erikson knew what he wanted to write and did in the exact way he chose and planned to do it. The scope of his series is something that would have swallowed whole any kind of writer. He kept going on and delivered the goods.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

End of Disc One, on Oct 22 2009, 09.34, said:

I find it hilarious that any fan of GRRM can accuse Erikson for lack of discipline.

Examples please.


Also yeah Karsa's

SPOILER: guff

daughters

don't make sense either.

And another thing, someone dies, their soul goes to Hood's Warren, but their souls can escape Hood's Warren and re-enter the real world, like that one dragon.

WHERE IS THE CONSERVATION OF MASS IN THIS?  That soul-body suddenly just became that dragon's real body, because afaik, that dragon died in Starvald or in the Real world, and his body is still rotting there, so, it's like, unlimited matter creation.

Also, what's with Mother Dark, why'd she leave the Andii?  

SPOILER: whatevs

Her decision to hang out with Rake's grandson didn't seem to have any reason at all, she was just there out of no where, and how does Mother Dark relate to the Warren of Darkness' portal? Is it a Shadowthrone -> Warren of Shadow relationship?

Edited by Jurble, 22 October 2009 - 11:00 AM.

[Foxhunt]

Oh God the spoilers that are floating around. They tempt me so. And please don't turn this into a GRRM vs Erickson thread. We gotta stay united.

[kungtotte]

Jurble, on Oct 22 2009, 17.55, said:

Examples please.

When Erikson is criticized for lack of discipline, it is understood to mean his lack of an internal editor. He doesn't care about having the time-line make sense. He doesn't care about internal consistency in the world. Or if he does care, he does a poor job of taking care of it. So things are in shambles. When they criticize GRRM for lack of discipline, they mean writing-discipline. That he's too busy watching sports instead of writing.  It's an old, done topic on this board.

[Relic]

kungtotte, on Oct 22 2009, 12.10, said:

That he's too busy watching sports instead of writing.  It's an old, done topic on this board.

That's a very simplistic way of putting it, but you know that.

Edited by Relic, 22 October 2009 - 11:35 AM.

[kungtotte]

Was it, or was it not, GRRM's pace of writing that you guys referred to regarding his lack of discipline?

If it was, my statement is a fair description of the issue.

[Nerdanel]

The timeline inconsistencies are only between books, not within books though, so it isn't as bad as it might sound like from the discussion. The storythreads are coherent within themselves, but when threads diverge and meet again things can get strange.

Timetravel:

SPOILER: RotG and TtH

Weird time properties seem to be an inherent property of the Warrens. I interpreted certain things in RotG so that the effect of a god's worship can (and routinely does) come into being a good while before the god in question actually becomes active and able to influence things.

See: Mael, Osserc, Draconus.

I think Mael became free because of the new worship that came into being because he would become free. (Yes, it's a time paradox!)

I think RotG was the first book in which we saw humans using Elder Light and Dark (something that was supposed to be impossible) because the priesthood with those abilities was propagating backward in time from the de-swording of Osserc and the freeing of Draconus.

If you become a god, you come with a ready-made religion.

[Zach H]

I'm still on Bonehunters at the moment, which I'm really digging.  It didn't take long for  Bottle (who I certainly don't consider a Marine clone) to become one of my favorite characters, and, as usual, I love the manner in which Erikson runs with a major theme per book, with this time the concern being the god(s)/worshippers dynamic.  Haven't noticed any  blatant timeline/continuity screw-ups yet, but admittedly I'm not the type of reader who's always going to pick up on that stuff.  With Erikson I'm more concerned with concentrating on the mythic, the thematic, and the atmospheric elements as opposed to a Martin-style moment by moment unfolding of events.  Given that Malazan constantly plays with the idea of historical texts via the epigraphs, I even think some of the bigger timeline screw-ups might be easily rationalized by acknowledging that historical chronicles (which I think Malazan definitely has the flavor of) are not definitive accounts of what really happened.

Anyways, I'm really digging Malazan.  I've actually been reading a lot less fiction (all genres, including mainstream lit) lately, but despite that Erikson and Martin are two I'll know I'll continue to keep an eye on no matter how long my burnout lasts.

[Relic]

kungtotte, on Oct 22 2009, 12.38, said:

If it was, my statement is a fair description of the issue.

I, for one, have no issues with GRRM watching football. What i do find troubling is that he's too busy to write cuz he's focused on all the hundreds of little side projects(read, $$$$$) that sprung out of the popularity of aSoIaF. A popularity that we, his long time fans, in some ways helped create.

He can do whatever he wants. I simply don't care about his series anymore and i don't think he's all that disciplined of a writer. But who cares what i think....

[wolverine]

Shryke, on Oct 22 2009, 04.31, said:

Toll The Hounds is like the perfect shit storm of the problems with his writing. A fucking turd of a book that fucks up established story left and right, all to shoe-horn in a poorly done theme of "family" and to showcase an annoying writing style he so loves. Oh, and "deep" philosophy to. Gotta cram that shit in there as well.

:agree:

At least someone agrees with my assessment of TTH.  I got massacred for saying similar things on the Malazan forum.  Plus it is realllllllllly boring.


Edit:  Reading other posts some of you are discussing how Erikson gets more done, which is obvious, but he could have gotten a lot more done by not writing 600 worthless pages in TTH.

Edited by wolverine, 22 October 2009 - 12:30 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

So I finally decided to pick up my copy of Bauchelain and Korrbal Broach, and you know, for all his faults, I still really enjoy Erikson.