261 replies to this topic

[Procrastimancer]

Jurble, on Oct 22 2009, 23.21, said:

What I never got was, is that everyone seems to be a badass, or an ascendant, but it might just be skewed by the PoV's we have, surely the common folk in the towns and villages don't see an Ascendant or a God every other hour?

Just because we don't see Fehrakkarakkarakkahoo Fieldtender, Reaver of Co'ren'al'tira'al'ochre, goddess of corn, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. He's badass, he's got a scythe.

SPOILER: spoiler

It's a joke. Seriously though, you never know...

Edited by Velos, 23 October 2009 - 05:40 PM.

[Gormenghast]

Werthead, on Oct 24 2009, 00.18, said:

Does anyone care now, in 2009, that Lord of the Rings took 18 years to come out?

They would if Return of the King was coming out 18 years after the first. They would if only the first two books came out and Return of the King was never published. In fact LotR reputation would be much different if the thing wasn't fully realized and complete.

The Malazan series is going to be realistically fully realized and complete.

ASoIaF risks to not be realistically realized and completed.

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The Malazan Book of the Fallen was a project deliberately solicited to be a money-making series for Bantam UK. It was, literally, picked up to do the business for them that Wheel of Time did for Tor and Orbit. That's why they asked for 10 books when Erikson wasn't thinking about anywhere near that many and that's why they offered him such a colossal sum of money for it.

Fancy biased perspective.

The series was a project that Erikson had and tried to sell for a very long time. In fact he was turned down because publishers didn't want to commit with such a thing.

If you want me to believe that argument bring proofs. Because as far as I know what you're saying here is made up by your biased self.

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And, on that basis, it failed. It took until 2006 for the advance to be paid back, as far as can be told.

More biased guesswork to support a theory made out of thin air?

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Sorry, why is the most respected television company in the world pouring tens of millions of dollars into this poorly-conceived failure of a project then?

You fail at reading comprehension.

I never said that ASoIaF failed because it sucks. I said it failed because the project got out of hand and it is likely that Martin can't bring it to a conclusion.

The reason why a television company got it is entirely because there's enough material to go on for a long time without worrying about a satisfying conclusion.

Edited by Gormenghast, 23 October 2009 - 06:09 PM.

[Relic]

Werthead, on Oct 23 2009, 18.18, said:

Sorry, why is the most respected television company in the world pouring tens of millions of dollars into this poorly-conceived failure of a project then?

Have they picked up a full order of episodes for Season 1?

I'm sure HBO doesnt feel all that great about how long it takes GRRM to come out with new material. It HAS to be some sort of a concern for them.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

GRRM isn't a planner, he's a gardener, if he were a planning author, then yes ASoIaF would be a failure, but the man just sorta has a point A and a point B, and just lets it grow out, and then goes back and does some trimming.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Velos, on Oct 23 2009, 18.37, said:

Just because we don't see Fehrakkarakkarakkahoo Fieldtender, Reaver of Co'ren'al'tira'al'ochre, goddess of corn, doesn't mean he doesn't exist. He's badass, he's got a scythe.

SPOILER: spoiler

It's a joke. Seriously though, you never know...

I know I'm not a praying man, but if you're out there Steven Erikson, this would be amazing.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Question how does Divine magic work in Malazan World? Like, Daseem Ultor doesn't really seem to like being a god, yet people worship him and use power in his name, so how's that work? Is it like worship = power, and the God is just a container that redistributes it?

[Werthead]

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The Malazan series is going to be realistically fully realized and complete.

In another 12+ years when all 22 books are out and all the story arcs begun back in Gardens of the Moon, Memories of Ice and House of Chains are finally completed (some of them by another writer, mind), sure.

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ASoIaF risks to not be realistically realized and completed.

And so does Malazan. There's a hell of a long way to go yet.

You still don't think the series finishes with The Crippled God though, do you? Not even the authors are suggesting that. The only thing that finishes in the next book is the Crippled God story arc. Many, many other storylines stretching back to Book 1 will be going on for many years and many more books to come.

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The series was a project that Erikson had and tried to sell for a very long time. In fact he was turned down because publishers didn't want to commit with such a thing.

If you want me to believe that argument bring proofs. Because as far as I know what you're saying here is made up by your biased self.

Erikson initially only sold Gardens of the Moon and an option on the sequel to Bantam. Orion/Gollancz tried to snatch him up for more books after that, but Bantam replied with the enticing suggestion that he could write as many books as he wanted. He mapped out the possible additional story arcs and came up with eight more books (beyond Gardens and the sequel), consisting of three distinct storylines that wrapped around one another. Bantam then gave him a £65-grand-per-book advance for all ten (which is, I believe, still a record for a debut fantasy author). So he didn't know it was going to be a ten-book series until after he'd sold Gardens of the Moon, so no-one at all was scared off by its length. He didn't know it was going to be that long before 1999.

As for Bantam's motives in why they wanted a ten-volume epic fantasy series in 1999 at precisely the same moment Jordan and Goodkind's sales were going through the roof and hitting the bestseller lists, I don't think it requires a genius to work it out. Not that's anything to be sniffed at as a publishing motive. I'm sure Voyager and Bantam US were happy to be getting seven rather than three books from GRRM once he hit the bestseller lists. I'm reasonably confident that if Abercrombie suggested a six-book series to Gollancz or something alon those lines they'd say, "Bring it on!"

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I never said that ASoIaF failed because it sucks. I said it failed because the project got out of hand and it is likely that Martin can't bring it to a conclusion.

There is no more sign that ASoIaF cannot be brought to a conclusion than Malazan can be. Come back in ten years and if the Malazan sequels, prequels and whatever are finished and ASoIaF still isn't, than you may have a point. At this time it is too early to say that for sure.

Relic, on Oct 24 2009, 00.27, said:

Have they picked up a full order of episodes for Season 1?

Not yet, although the pilot by itself is costing millions.

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I'm sure HBO doesnt feel all that great about how long it takes GRRM to come out with new material. It HAS to be some sort of a concern for them.

Obviously not that much of a concern because they wouldn't be making it in the first place if it were, or they'd be waiting for the series to be completed. Since they aren't, it isn't a concern. They probably have a contingency plan or have at least thought about it during the process that led to this point.

[Tarant]

Gormenghast,
I largely agree with your first two points but your third point seems to be that quality can not be maintained over a long period of time.  This seems like a really weird argument because Malazan is one of the most uneven series I've ever read and this opinion seems to be shared by the vast majority of fans and non-fans alike.  I've never seen anyone try to maintain that Malazan is very even quality wise.

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Four: my idea about Erikson, again, is that his commitment improved the quality (not the timeline, but timeline != quality for me). Because it forced him to stay extremely focused in a kind of obsessive, totalizing, draining way. Which is why I say that a series of 10 books with the scope of the one Erikson made could only be done /that way/. Now Erikson isn't going to write another series of 10 books in 20 years instead of 10. He's writing a trilogy. Why? Because you can't write a 10-book series in 20 years. It won't work. It gets out of hand. There's NO writer in history out there who could keep a steady quality and intent throughout a long series. Surely not on a ten-book series. And even Martin, who wrote 4 books, has still to prove that the next 3 won't suck or derail all over the place (like some readers already think about the 4 book).

Wow, there is unbelievable amount of logical leaps in this paragraph.  Ok, Erikson is committed to his series--I'll give him that. However, by what measure are you claiming this has caused quality? You admit the timeline has suffered because of this.  Character motivation, and consistency is all over the place.  The books very wildly in terms of cast, location, theme and yes quality.  Yes, Martin needs to maintain quality in his forthcoming works but we already know that Erikson doesn't manage it---derailing and sucking are two very apt descriptors for later books in the Malazan series.

Also, how do you know that Erikson chose to write a trilogy because he couldn't write a 10 book series in twenty years?  Considering he contracted for two separate trilogies I would assume its because he had two separate stories he wanted to tell and he didn't think either of them needed ten books to tell.

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The difference is that it is a "failure" in *your own opinion*. It's not a failure as a project. He planned the thing, and had it go in the way he wanted it to go. There's nothing "failing" in there beside what is subjective. You don't like it, fine.

ASoIaF is a failure as a project, outside of everything you can say about Martin as a writer. It's a project that went out of hand and that was poorly conceived in the first place.

Not really.  Erikson never planned his series out except in very broad brush strokes and often information from one book contradicts information in another book.  There seems to be very little in the way of planning for most of the Malazan books and Erikson admits to making up large parts of the story on the fly.  Also, him and Esslemont claim that their books actually form one whole so we're really talking about a series of 15 books which isn't close to being done and of course Erikson is writing follow up series to deal with plotlines that won't be resolved in the series proper.  

But you're right.  In terms of meeting deadlines and sticking to the outline Erikson has done a better job than Martin has.  Then again in the objective terms of money, fandom, and critical acclaim there's no doubt that Martin has been more successful.

[Tarant]

article said:

Erikson, a 40-year-old Canadian who moved to the UK with his English wife, wrote Gardens Of The Moon in 1991, rewrote it three times, and then faced a long struggle to publish it.

Sooo if the Crippled God gets finished in 2010 as anticipated Erikson will have been writing this series for 20 years (not including the time he spent roleplaying, of course)? LoL.

[Zach H]

Do Malazan threads always have to turn into Erikson vs. Martin?

[Eurytus]

I have to admit that much as I love ASOIAF I no longer have much, if any, faith that it will ever be complete.
The degree to which the releases are slowing down is extremely worrying. I mean supposedly Feast of Crows was the real problem one taking 5 years to complete and when it was complete, since it was originally one book that was split, we were led to believe that a lot of work on A Dance With Dragons had already been done. Despite that it looks as if ADWD will take as long or perhaps even longer than FOC to come out.
We might hope that because both these novels cover this problematic 5 year gap that later novels will come out faster but with the way Martin adds on side projects and with the TV series I see no reason to hope that. Probably in the best case scenario we will have waited 20 years from beginning to end to read the whole story and that's pretty damned long. It could easily be more than that.

Assuming the TV series does well and is commissioned quite possibly the TV series will catch up with the novels, and what will happen then?

[Werthead]

Eurytus, on Oct 24 2009, 02.04, said:

Assuming the TV series does well and is commissioned quite possibly the TV series will catch up with the novels, and what will happen then?

This has been debated, ad nauseum, in the TV show forum, which is where it can continue.

However, the simple and I'd have thought rather obvious answer is that GRRM gives the TV writers an outline and we see the end of the series on TV before it appears in print. Ideal? No. But I really don't see how else it would be handled. The aging of the younger actors would seem to preclude simply waiting several years between seasons. But as I said, if you want to get into that discussion, take it over to the TV General Discussion forum.

We also still have at least one (if not more) Erikson versus GRRM threads which is really not what this specific topic is all about, so it might be an idea to resurrect that than continue to take this one off-topic.

Edited by Werthead, 23 October 2009 - 08:24 PM.

[Twelve Angry Nonmen]

Let's try something different: Bakker, he pumps books out fairly quick, and quality doesn't drop.

[Gormenghast]

Werthead, on Oct 24 2009, 02.11, said:

In another 12+ years when all 22 books are out and all the story arcs begun back in Gardens of the Moon, Memories of Ice and House of Chains are finally completed (some of them by another writer, mind), sure.



And so does Malazan. There's a hell of a long way to go yet.

You still don't think the series finishes with The Crippled God though, do you?

Yes, I do. The series is over. It is 10 volumes.

In the same way LotR is complete and realized without The Hobbit or The Silmarillion.
In the same way The Prince of Nothing is complete and realized without The Aspect-Emperor.
In the same way The First Law is complete and realized without Best Served Cold.
In the same way the Night's Dawn trilogy is complete and realized even if one day Hamilton may write a sequel.

If Erikson starts a new trilogy and doesn't finish it, it will be that trilogy to not be realized, not everything else.

And no, I don't believe in your largely guessed reconstruction of history.

[Paxter]

Gormenghast, on Oct 24 2009, 11.43, said:

In the same way The Prince of Nothing is complete and realized without The Aspect-Emperor.

I can't speak for the some of the other series mentioned, but I don't think anyone could really say that Bakker's story is "complete and realised" by the end of the Prince of Nothing. The story that Bakker is weaving is the Second Apocalypse. Kellhus' seizing of the Three Seas is merely a precursor to greater events. Much in the same way that Ned's death in AGoT is a precursor to the War of the Five Kings that unfolds in later books.

It is simplistic to say that an author's work is "complete and realised" simply because a trilogy or named series of books is over. Substance should prevail over form.

Edited by Paxter, 23 October 2009 - 10:51 PM.

[keithweed]

End of Disc One, on Oct 22 2009, 10.01, said:

You're right I shouldn't have gone there, considering what board I'm on.  I'm definitely not going to convince anyone here.

I was convinced a long time ago.
I'd rather have a book in a long series come out fast than not come out at all.
Erikson is a fantasy author,he's not trying to get in the New Yorker and hang out with literati,if the original poster likes epic sword & sorcery fantasy,they'll love Erkson imo.

[Arthmail]

Sorry, why is the most respected television company in the world pouring tens of millions of dollars into this poorly-conceived failure of a project then?

This is what i heard. Martin caught the CEO of the production company with another man's dick in his mouth in an airport in New Jersey, and said: "I've got you by the balls, motherfucker, i've got you by the balls."

True story.

Jurble: Hard to compare Bakker to either author. Martin has a number of projects on the go, while Erikson pushes out a collasal 1000 pages nearly every book.

Side note, anyone know if in his contract Erikson was forced to write his novels so fucking long? I think a number of problems that he had could have been cleared up by cutting the books in half and doing careful redrafts. There are simply too many threads.

If Erikson starts a new trilogy and doesn't finish it, it will be that trilogy to not be realized, not everything else.
And no, I don't believe in your largely guessed reconstruction of history.

How can it be over, when there are so many plot points remaining? (As a side note, i've always thought that Erikson's "this is a war, and i'm putting the reader right in the middle of it", is a bit of a failure, story wise. Failing to explain half of what is going on in the book, in that book, and waiting for a number of subsequent books to do so is retarded. Creating a coherent backbone to his books is something that Erikson has failed at, in my opinion, and i find alot of people that defend the book go through some pretty intense mental gymnastics to justify certain plot threads)
Also, from what i have been able to gleen over the last few years, Werthead is somehow and mysteriously connected with some of what is going on...in other words, he knows STUFF. Hang around a bit, get a sense of that perhaps, before you start spewing shit. I mean, yea, you can't take everyone's word on things, but putting your head up your ass and then asking the question rarely works. Everything just ends up tasting like poo.


I like both authors. But Erikson has burned me out, for a number of reasons. His endless badass characters, some truly monumentally boring plot threads, constant theme and story changes, sometimes even during the middle of a book. His inability to even partly explain some of what the hell is going on, instead just assuming that the reader is going to remember relevant plot points from six books back. I'll give his books another chance, for sure...sometime.

As for Martin, he too has burned me out. Glacial publishing pace has left me cold, while his last book in the series contained almost none of the characters that i like, and the book, for whatever reason, felt subpar. I have all but given up on Martin getting the next book published...but that being said, i'll still buy his books. Whenever they get out.

Both authors have their failings, and their strengths. Both suck compared to Gemmell.

Sigh, i miss you Gemmell.

Edited by Arthmail, 24 October 2009 - 02:42 AM.

[polishgenius]

Why do people still argue with Gormenghast? I thought it was established that he hasn't close to finished either series and therefore doesn't actually know what he's talking about.

[Arthmail]

I wasn't aware that he hadn't read either series. Now i know.


But sometimes i just want to argue.

[kungtotte]

So does Gormenghast.

You should've seen the previous threads about Malazan, ASOIAF, Erikson or GRRM (or any combination of those four topics)... :)