Guy Gavriel Kay

[Gigei]

from my post when I first read it:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/16827-march-reading-thread/page__st__20__p__687105&#entry687105

Posted 05 March 2007 - 07:47 AM

Finished Guy Gabriev Kay's Lions of Al-Rassan. Reading Kay's books gives me this annoying "wtf" feeling at the end. Same thing with Song for Arbonne, Sailing to Sarantium and I forgot the next book in the Sarantium duology....anyway those gave me the same feeling.

Alright, Kay did well with good prose and atmospheric scenery and mood. The rest is very unsatisfying, especially major characters. Ironically minor characters come off well since Kay doesn't attempt to get inside their heads much so we are just left with a few cool images of their history.

This one was annoying because of the whole "yeah they were madly in love" thing where I am just supposed to accept that they are in true, mad lurvvee, baby! Has anyone ever told Kay you have to SHOW it, not tell?

Don't get me started on the incredibly amateurish and annoying writing technique of constantly referring to something without saying wth it is. Yeah "what had been done" "when the fourth child was born" "what Almalik had done to her father" "what had been done to her father when Almalik's fourth child was born" "before the fourth child of Almalik had been born her father ..." on and on ...until I want to scream.

Then there's the duel where the reader has no idea who won and who lost. Then there is the whole decades after thing where a character constantly refers to his wife - who we are left to assume is the only woman he is associated with (apart from his mother). Nope, it's not her it's some woman the reader has never heard of before.

Sigh. Predictably, everyone is in love with the main Kay character. It's just like those bad Mary Sue fanfics all over the net.

I think what really annoys me the most is that Kay could be a great writer if he could get a handle on real emotions and characterization.

Lions, to me stands out as the worst of GGK because of it's gimmicky stuff.

- the part where over and over again "the thing" is mentioned but never stated. it wouldn't have been bad necessarily but it was too much to be stated again and again

- the duel where you have no idea what is happening

- the wife thing I mentioned

I would say such amateurish gimmicks are only for crap writers who need them to plaster over unexciting prose. The fact that GGK is generally a *good* writer just makes it all the worse.

Plus, there is the spoiler thing at the end where the handicapped guy does something extremely implausible. *rolls eyes* Really?

[Ran]

The confusion of the duel is a pretty key expression of the major thematic point of the narrative. That you didn't know what was happening was the point of the entire scene.

I'm not saying one needs to love it or anything, but I think being aware of the thematic context of what Kay was doing is pretty vital to understanding some the literary devices he uses.

[Serious Callers Only]

I dunno. I thought it was pretty "gritty"* when Empress Alixana (Theodora lololo) urinated in the face of a betrayer senator corpse.

*Wish i could eviscerate everyone that uses that non-word.

[Ran]

Last I checked, gritty has been a word for about 400 years...

ETA: And the usage for "harsh, uncompromising" is over a 100 years old, too.

[Serious Callers Only]

Not how its being used it is not.

[Antonius Pius]

Last I checked, gritty has been a word for about 400 years...

You checked that?

On Amazon.co.uk they are so convinced GGK uses real history for the basis of his books that they've named Sailing to Sarantium, Sailing to Byzantium.

You guys have made me curious about his works, so I've ordered the upcoming new editions (May 2010).

[Ran]

Had the OED open anyways as I was looking something else up. ;)

Amusing that Amazon.co.uk has that wrong. Kay's title is, of course, a reference to the Yeats poem which I believe he quotes in the foreword of one or the other of the books.

[Galactus]

I "Kinda-like" Kay. I can't see the "OMG! KAY IS SO GREAT!" feeling that some people seem to get, but he's a good enough writer. (better at prose than many) but his characters tends to be somewhat trite and uninteresting. (even when they by all rights should not be)

[malek]

Well, here goes:

I've been impressed with little bits of Kay I got to read every now and there (Free chapters, etc...), he got great reviews from my friends, on this board... so I decided to buy not 1, but 3 of his books (there is very little of fantasy that I like getting translated to my home language).

I bought Lions Of Al Rassan, Last Light Of The Sun, and Tigana.

I read only Lions so far, and I must say it was a real struggle to get through it, and that I'm quite disappointed by it.

I hate how Kay tries to be realistic about some things, yet totally over the top about others. I hate how his characters are totally one dimensional, and boring, and are so capable that they could destroy armies all by themselves.

I expected so much from him, yet gain so little... :bang:

[Arakasi]

I'd say my breaking point is Lions. I enjoy the book quite a bit, but basically everything before that is good and worth reading (Tigana, Fionavar, Song) and everything after that is mediocre and not very inspired (Sarantium, Last Light). Great prose writer who needs to find an original plot. His earlier works are more rough and less inspired (ripped off) from history, and thus feel more realised to me. (well Fionavar really takes from a ton of different sources in fairly obvious ways, but it has a lot of charm to it and it works for me)

[williamjm]

I hate how Kay tries to be realistic about some things, yet totally over the top about others. I hate how his characters are totally one dimensional, and boring, and are so capable that they could destroy armies all by themselves.

I disagree that his characters are one-dimensional, although I can understand why people might not like the exceptional abilities of some of his characters, Kay doesn't make them saints as well. Rodrigo and Ammar may be the heroes of the story and many of the things they do may be good but they're not saints and do a number of morally questionable things during the story and they have some personality flaws as well (Ammar strikes me as being very arrogant at times) so they're hardly one-dimensional heroes.

I disagree about them being boring as well, incidentally, but I guess that's entirely a matter of opinion. As for them being capable of destroying armies by themselves, I read Lions after reading several Malazan books where that description wouldn't be an exaggeration so they seem comparatively underpowered ;)

[Gigei]

The confusion of the duel is a pretty key expression of the major thematic point of the narrative. That you didn't know what was happening was the point of the entire scene.

I'm not saying one needs to love it or anything, but I think being aware of the thematic context of what Kay was doing is pretty vital to understanding some the literary devices he uses.

I know but there were *too many* such gimmicks. Once would have been good. Twice, over the top. Three? You have to be joking...

Re-using the same thing in the same book loses much of its impact and becomes annoying instead of dramatic.

Like I said, taken alone it wouldn't have been bad but the constant repetition drives me totally out of my mind and it is for this reason that I would never recommend the Lions of Al-Rassan to anyone.

I "Kinda-like" Kay. I can't see the "OMG! KAY IS SO GREAT!" feeling that some people seem to get, but he's a good enough writer. (better at prose than many) but his characters tends to be somewhat trite and uninteresting. (even when they by all rights should not be)

Hahaha yes the first time I read GGK I was like "argh how could you all say he is the best thing since sliced bread?" he is hugely hyped on this board. :)

[malek]

I disagree that his characters are one-dimensional, although I can understand why people might not like the exceptional abilities of some of his characters, Kay doesn't make them saints as well. Rodrigo and Ammar may be the heroes of the story and many of the things they do may be good but they're not saints and do a number of morally questionable things during the story and they have some personality flaws as well (Ammar strikes me as being very arrogant at times) so they're hardly one-dimensional heroes.

I disagree about them being boring as well, incidentally, but I guess that's entirely a matter of opinion. As for them being capable of destroying armies by themselves, I read Lions after reading several Malazan books where that description wouldn't be an exaggeration so they seem comparatively underpowered ;)

I don't think characterization is done the right way. I simply can't think of Ammar as morally complex, as he did "evil" think prior the book started, and it felt soooooo scripted. You never see him acting like merciless killer afterwords, never mind capable of killing those close to him. You never see him as conflicted about anything as well.

Yep, but Malazan is a fantasy book, where fantastic characters do fantastic things. Kay built a realistic setting, and tried to be real about most things. Setting, plot, etc... all feel real enough, but those two who acted as giant Deus Ex Machina, banding reality, boundaries and laws that writer set himself :spank:

[Imagica]

About Lions... I'd say it's just highly stylized, and you either accept it and love it, or you don't and see all the flaws outright. I accepted and just went with the flow (which, sadly, happens too rarely for me these days while reading fiction), and fell in love with the story and the characters.

You never see him as conflicted about anything as well.

You mean he wasn't conflicted when presented with Rodrigo's offer of serving the King of Espana? I must have missed something...

Love Kay's work. Currently rereading Last Light of the Sun - remembering why I liked it so much.

I've dropped it quite some time ago but, being naturally curious, still have to ask if the main character (younger brother) and his love interest really turn out to be as sueish as they seemed in the beginning, and their romance - destined and inevitable. It was the main reason I've dropped the book: too cringeworthy for my taste. Too bad, the storyline about the other brother who was taken by fairies seemed to be promising.

[Autologic]

Like many people in this thread, I read about 75% of The Lions Of Al-Rassan and wondered what the big deal was. The setting was neat but the characters were pretentious wankers. Everyone's a leader in their field, everyone's just awesome at what they do. The warrior/poet/assassin/Most Interesting Man In The World was the breaking point for me. Pass.

[Alexia]

OP Update:

I had to put Tigana down for a little bit but I am now about a third or so through and I really, really like the story. It's not comparable with GRRM but the prose is beautiful and the story is engaging.

I was really intrigued by Tomasso's character and was sad to see him die so soon. :crying:

Right now, I'm reading about Dionara.

[snake]

Tigana is one of the few books (and I cannot recall the others so perhaps the only book) I've started to read and couldn't finish. It was horrid.

I was quite disappointed because I've enjoyed most of Kay's work before that with the exception of The Fionavar Tapestry. It was a fairly poor read but I was able to finish it at least.

Personally, I liked The Lions of Al-Rassan best with The Sarantine Mosaic a close second. I felt they were very good books and I even did a reread of Lions which is something I rarely do with authors other than Le Guin, Tolkien and Martin. So I do like most of Kay's work but with Tigana something went horribly wrong from my POV.

[Lupigis]

Regarding The Lions of Al Rassan, I would just like to say that while I am à fan of Kay, Lions is not a favourite. Try Tigana or Sarantium instead.

[Insert Edit]

I'm a GGK fan. And I've also noticed that he can't help but having his protagonists be damn good at everything.

I'm willing to overlook that because he does it so well.

You either buy in or you don't.

[Alexia]

*happy sigh*

I finished the book and really liked it.

I really liked the twist at the end where the Fool turned out to be Prince Valentine.

I also really liked the romance in it and the fact that the Dark Lord comes off as a really human character. Dionara was fascinating (can you imagine!) and I don't think I've ever read a female character like her in fantasy before.

I am now starting in on Last Light of the Sun. I think I've discovered a new gem of an author - and I rather like how he writes standalone books, considering that everyone else writes trilogies (and in the case of Robin Hobb, draws it out to fit three books until a good idea is completely destroyed). Thanks everyone!

I think you'll find that, by the end, that the story is comparable with a more compact GRRM.

Chataya, I loved the storyline but I still wouldn't compare with GRRM, primarily because I associate GRRM's style with characterization - very distinct, vivid, and separate personalities for each character - and I didn't get that as vividly from this book. That being said, the storytelling was amazing and once I got into it the book was hard to put down. And it was creative and unique - I am so tired of formulaic fantasy.