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Syrio == Jaqen


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#1 Mixta

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:29 PM

When I first saw a Syrio = Jaqen post I kind of laughed it off. It seemed to contrived to me and I felt that Martin may have put some clues into this if it was true (Not obvious but subtle ones).

After a recent revelation about the prologue of AFFC, however, I am thoroughly convinced that Syrio is Jaqen.

First, let me show the strongest argument against Syrio = Jaqen.

The best one I have seen is that Eddard gave Yoren the 3 criminals from the bowels of the dungeons. One of which we know to be Jaqen (Although he wasn't - I'll get to this in a second). Meanwhile, Syrio is still giving "dancing lessons" to Arya.

Thus, Syrio would seemingly have to be in two places at once, which is impossible.

The prologue of AFFC contains the answer to this riddle of how Syrio/Jaqen can be in the same place at once. We know faceless men can change their appearance. We see someone in the prologue kill the boy from the citadel. Later we see that boy and at this point we can only assume that Syrio/Jaqen is acting as this boy. I thus put forward the idea that FM can only truly change into someone else when they kill them. This would explain why Rorge and Biter fear Syrio/Jaqen and the timeline problems. Syrio killed the original Jaqen and became him, much like he killed the boy of the citadel and became him.

Let me know if there is anything else I am missing. Are there any other arguments worth merit that say Jaqen =/= Syrio?

#2 Isabella Stark

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 09:26 PM

I thus put forward the idea that FM can only truly change into someone else when they kill them. This would explain why Rorge and Biter fear Syrio/Jaqen and the timeline problems. Syrio killed the original Jaqen and became him, much like he killed the boy of the citadel and became him.


But Jaqen turned into the guy with the hooked nose and dark hair (in front of Arya) without killing someone of that description.

However, I agree with you that Jaqen killed the prisoner-Jaqen and took his place, for reasons best known to him.

#3 Mixta

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 11:20 PM

But Jaqen turned into the guy with the hooked nose and dark hair (in front of Arya) without killing someone of that description.

However, I agree with you that Jaqen killed the prisoner-Jaqen and took his place, for reasons best known to him.


I believe that guy with the hooked nose and scar is his original form.

#4 DARKPIE

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 11:55 PM

Not this again.

Wouldn't the guard mention something to Cersei if the guy who killed 3 of them with a wooden stick somehow got away?

#5 Mixta

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:05 AM

Not this again.

Wouldn't the guard mention something to Cersei if the guy who killed 3 of them with a wooden stick somehow got away?


Most likely the KG member would be too ashamed/rather cover it up. I just reread that chapter and it was mayhem in the keep.

#6 Liadin

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:05 AM

Er... is there any evidence FOR Syrio = Jaqen other than the fact that they're both connected with Braavos?

#7 cybroleach

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:31 AM

Most likely the KG member would be too ashamed/rather cover it up. I just reread that chapter and it was mayhem in the keep.


How could he plausibly get away? If anyone who believes Syrio can be Jaqen you should tackle that paradox.

#8 Guest_Other-in-law_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:11 AM

Not to mention the mystery of 'what possible benefit could be obtained by choosing to be imprisoned that couldn't be gained far more safely and easily without being imprisoned?'

Want to murder someone who is in the Black Cells? Impersonate a jailer and just do it. Or sneak in at night and break into their cell and do it. No need to throw your own freedom of movement away.

#9 Ibanez

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:16 AM

I'm in the middle of a re read right now, and to me it is blatantly obvious that Jaqen = Syrio. As to the post above, heres what happens. Syrio defends himself with a wooden stick against Meryn Trant and some red cloaks, but is eventually overcome, at which point he is brought to the black cells for defending a traitors daughter. Here he changes to Jaqen and Goes with Yoren. I dont think he killed anyone because there is no where for him to dispose of the body.

Despite the circumstantial evidence pointing to syrio = Jaqen, i think the most important evidence is simply GRRMs language during the Arya chapters in ACOK involving Jaqen. I challenge anyone who doesnt believe Jaqen = Syrio to go back and re-read the Arya chapters where she is owed 3 deaths, and the chapter where she helps the northernmen escape, and to tell me GRRM isn't trying to make us think that. In these chapters Arya is always thinking of something Syrio taught here when Jaqen arrives, like the time she tries sneaking up to him and being "silent like a cat", but Jaqen hers and tells her to go barefoot. George even adds that Jaqen reminds Arya of Syrio.

In re-reading, I am certain that Jaqen = Syrio and I think we will learn that through Arya's training as a faceless man.

#10 Guest_Other-in-law_*

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:31 AM

Syrio defends himself with a wooden stick against Meryn Trant and some red cloaks, but is eventually overcome, at which point he is brought to the black cells for defending a traitors daughter.

No. He was released to the NW on Ned Stark's orders. Ned Stark's orders are not going to be followed after Ned Stark has been overthrown.

Despite the circumstantial evidence pointing to syrio = Jaqen, i think the most important evidence is simply GRRMs language during the Arya chapters in ACOK involving Jaqen. I challenge anyone who doesnt believe Jaqen = Syrio to go back and re-read the Arya chapters where she is owed 3 deaths, and the chapter where she helps the northernmen escape, and to tell me GRRM isn't trying to make us think that.


GRRM isn't trying to make us think Syrio is Jaqen.

In these chapters Arya is always thinking of something Syrio taught here when Jaqen arrives,

Arya also thinks about how Ned told her the lone wolf will die but the pack will survive. Does that mean Jaqen=Ned?

#11 The SmilingKnight

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 04:44 AM

I'm in the middle of a re read right now, and to me it is blatantly obvious that Jaqen = Syrio. As to the post above, heres what happens. Syrio defends himself with a wooden stick against Meryn Trant and some red cloaks, but is eventually overcome, at which point he is brought to the black cells for defending a traitors daughter. Here he changes to Jaqen and Goes with Yoren. I dont think he killed anyone because there is no where for him to dispose of the body.

Despite the circumstantial evidence pointing to syrio = Jaqen, i think the most important evidence is simply GRRMs language during the Arya chapters in ACOK involving Jaqen. I challenge anyone who doesnt believe Jaqen = Syrio to go back and re-read the Arya chapters where she is owed 3 deaths, and the chapter where she helps the northernmen escape, and to tell me GRRM isn't trying to make us think that. In these chapters Arya is always thinking of something Syrio taught here when Jaqen arrives, like the time she tries sneaking up to him and being "silent like a cat", but Jaqen hers and tells her to go barefoot. George even adds that Jaqen reminds Arya of Syrio.

In re-reading, I am certain that Jaqen = Syrio and I think we will learn that through Arya's training as a faceless man.

Maybe im missing something but i think this is theoretically possible and plausible.

I dont see whats the problem of Syrio(FM) to become one of the imprisoned in the black cells and in the process actually scare Rorge and Biter.

Only snag i can see thats hard to properly explain is lack of reaction later on since its not a small thing for one of formers hand personel to dissappear from the black cells.

My argument that should solve that little conundrum is circumstantial but valid i think:

First, we know that not many people knew what he and Arya were doing in their free time, those who would see them or Arya running around would think its something strange or loony very often.
Syrio himself wasnt taken much seriously by those who knew of him.

Second, and probably much more important we know who commanded the black cells. Varys.



As to the method inside the black cells i would think that it went like this:
Syrio was thrown in the cell.
He either reveals himself to Varys and just stays with him down there until it becomes clear that Arya is among those going for the Wall then kills former Jaqen and scares Rorge and Biter in the process,
- gets slightly surprisd he got locked into a cage but figures you know... something like his usual: "A man will wait...trip is long and this cage short" :xD - lines.

OR
He just waits in one of the cells, recovering from wounds, fooling Varys too and the upon hearing/finding out Arya is going to get sent with Yoren he does his thing and gets among three prisoners that are also for the wall on his own ninja James Bond style.

Varys doesnt even need to be in the picture fully, its enough if he just figures out Syrio is FM, prior or during his "escape" and decides to keep his mouth shut about it.

Or strike a bargain with him - giving FM info and opportunity to infiltrate Yorens wagons to get FM who is now Jaqen to do something for him in the Citadel.
We know FMs are prone to bargaining in some situations /smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

Then the question of for whom Syrio was working for arises.

Important fact is that Syirio had a specific protective and instructive role for Arya.
Not for Starks in general.

Onward -

You might want to remember that Ilyrio actually visited Varys just some time before that.
It is logical to assume he would have enough money or influence to hire an FM, maybe even just as their secret ace in the sleeve positioned inside Hands retinue from where he has easy reach to anyone important.

In a sense a sleeper - he might not even had a specific command for assassination yet.

I cant remember exactly the details of how he got presented to and hired by Ned, but if anyone could get him expressly in it was Varys.

Ilyrio pays for him - Varys gets him deep inside Red Keep.
Waiting for development of situation but ready o be used.


Then of course he meets Arya - and her specialty is drawing people to her by her fierce personality - its her theme as i said in some other thread.
And of course her personality is a big deal all the way through her story - most of all in Bravoos itself - at the end.

And this is where we remember Both Syrio and Jaqen were from Bravoos /cheers.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':cheers:' />

And that Jaqen also ended up in a pure protective - instructive role towards Arya. Exactly the same like Syrio.

One of his lessons is that nothing comes on its own but has to be earned - achieved by your own efforts or guile or abilities. That prices must be paid.



Also, motivation for his "transfer" to Yoren might have been Ned officially.


And for the life of me i cant remember did Varys know aboout Arya at all or it was just Yoren catching her and dragging her away... Can someone clear that up for me? Thanks...

Still, Eddard Stark covers "official task" part of the theory and his benefactory role towards Arya can be a product of just her usual theme of her personality making FM "like her" - unexpectedly.



Also, can anyone check did Jaqen kill anyone in the Harnhall that looked like the face he took later- the one with the scar, which he wore to the Citadel? /tongue.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':P' />

Edited by Jaquen Hgharr, 06 January 2010 - 04:47 AM.


#12 Lummel

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:40 AM

Huh?

What do we know about Jaqen? Only that he has a mission that requires him to be in Oldtown impersonating Pate.

Being imprisoned in the black cells and dragged in a cart to the Wall is not going to help him achieve this objective.

If Syrio was a faceless man working for Varys:
why would he transform himself into Jaqen rather than into a jailer or a guard?
why does he risk his life to try to protect Arya when he could have maintained his cover and gone to ground in King's Landing instead where he could have remained ready to be used by Varys?

If Jaqen has some overiding responsibility to protect and prepare Arya then why leave her to make her own way to Riverrun? The series of events that eventually, after many twists and turns, lead her to Braavos is not foreseeable when the two of them part in Harrenhall.

I can see that the Braavos connection invites speculation but given that we know that Jaqen can change not just his appearance but also his identity we have no reason to believe that he is or was originally a Braavosi.

#13 mormont

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 05:47 AM

This is neither new, nor evidence for the theory.

#14 Lord Slum

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 06:14 AM

Er... is there any evidence FOR Syrio = Jaqen other than the fact that they're both connected with Braavos?

Short Answer: No
Long Answer: Straws are being grasped at, there probably isn't any real connection to either of them other than what you've stated.

#15 Stalker

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 07:33 AM

Syrio = Jaqen


You really want to do this?

Yes, that has been proposed before. And can't be disproven, due to the lack of interest for the issue the books have. So, yes, with enough unlikely assumptions, it is theoretically possible. But a lot of things are. Like Santa Claus being real in Westeros. The real issue is this:

You have no reason to believe it true. Thus, anyone who does believe is engaging in Wishful Thinking.

#16 baxus

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:05 AM

are we even sure that jaqen and the faceless man in odltown are the same person?
i assume that there is more than one faceless man, and since westeros is half of the world it's highly probable that there are more faceless men at work...
i can't remember the details of those chapters, so i'm just asking...

EDIT:
i love '==' in the title, it's so nerdy...

Edited by baxus, 06 January 2010 - 08:21 AM.


#17 Daemon23

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:19 AM

Er... is there any evidence FOR Syrio = Jaqen other than the fact that they're both connected with Braavos?

Jaqen H'ghar knows that "Weasel" is Arya Stark, which having been Syrio Forel would explain.

are we even sure that jaqen and the faceless man in odltown are the same person?
i assume that there is more than one faceless man, and since westeros is half of the world it's highly probable that there are more faceless men at work...
i can't remember the details of those chapters, so i'm just asking...

The face that Jaqen H'ghar assumes when leaving Arya at Harrenhal is described in nearly identical words to that shown to Pate by the alchemist in the prologue to AFfC:

Jaqen passed a hand down his face from forehead to chin, and where it went he changed. His cheeks grew fuller, his eyes closer, his nose hooked, a scar appeared on his right cheek where no scar had been before. And when he shook his head, his long, straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal a cap of tight black curls.
- ACoC, p. 519

He was just a man, and his face was just a face. A young man's face, ordinary, with full cheeks and the shadow of a beard. A scar showed faintly on his right cheek. He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears. It was not a face Pate recognized.
- AFfC, p. 15


Edited by Daemon23, 06 January 2010 - 08:23 AM.


#18 mormont

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:47 AM

Jaqen H'ghar knows that "Weasel" is Arya Stark, which having been Syrio Forel would explain.


But this is not something that really requires an explanation. We know that Faceless Men are trained to be very observant, and Arya gives away more than enough clues.

#19 Ko Coopy

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:03 AM

I'm someone who has argued for Syrio to be alive but I have never really believed that Syrio and Jaqen were the same person. The timeline never really worked for me and the real problem that you have to deal with is Syrio surviving Trant's attack.

If you say that Syrio somehow escaped that situation on his own, that's the most believable (but still pretty unbelievable) argument. Saying that Syrio was overcome and thrown into the cells...there's just no way. If Syrio is overcome in that situation, he would end up in at least two pieces.

The only thing that leads me to think they are the same is that they may have similar accents. And that would also explain Arya being reminded of Syrio's teachings. I don't think a true FM would assume an entirely new persona without changing his way of speaking. (I'm assuming that a FM skilled enough to change his appearance significantly would also be skilled enough to change his speech. Maybe that's too strong an assumption though.)

#20 Toe

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 10:34 AM

Actually we have a listing of all recent occupants of the Black Cells. From AFFC:

"Longwaters scratched his nose. “Rugen was here when need be, my lord. That must be said. The
black cells are little used. Before your lordship’s little brother was sent down, we had
Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three
others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night’s Watch. I did not think it
good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order.""

No mention of Syrio who would certainly have been an unusual enough prisoner to be mentioned.

Edited by Toe, 06 January 2010 - 10:35 AM.