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Syrio == Jaqen


Mixta

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No mention of Syrio who would certainly have been an unusual enough prisoner to be mentioned.
So, you are actually saying that Jaqen was more unusual than Rorge or Biter, who weren't mentioned either? Or just that all three replaced with weirdos after their imprisonment?

ETA: I can't read, my most abject apologies.

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The 'evidence' is lacking. But it's natural for people to try to make this connection. Arya loses one as mentor and gains the other - they play a similar role, so the mind views them as the same character. The beginning of Jaqen's story is begging to be told. So is the ending of Syrio's. It so happens that these story lines nearly line up, and Jaqen's facemelt provides a plausible mechanism. It's very tidy to just tie them together and resolve everything at once. Many times in books this type of convenience implies reality, through the experienced reader's intuitive understanding that the author does not create a complete world, only one which is sufficient to tell the story. Hence the simpliest solution is often correct. Whether you call it Occam's Razor or Chekov's Gun, it often works.

But at the end of the day all you have is both guys are from Braavos, both are skilled, and both mentor Arya. I wonder how much of it is that we see very few Braavosi and fall into traps of the 'all people of a certain other ethnicity basically look/sound alike' or 'oh you're from New York, do you know this one guy?' type.

P.S. For the sake of throwing my hat in the ring, I don't believe they're the same person, just based on the difficulty in making the timelines line up perfectly.

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But at the end of the day all you have is both guys are from Braavos, both are skilled, and both mentor Arya.

Actually Jaqen is from Lorath, but you probably meant to say 'from the Free Cities'. ;)

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So, you are actually saying that Jaqen was more unusual than Rorge or Biter, who weren't mentioned either? Or just that all three replaced with weirdos after their imprisonment?

Obviously Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen were the three common men so they were mentioned.

Any theory that Syrio was in thrown into the black cells must have a very good explanation for why Syrio was not on this list.

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Obviously Rorge, Biter, and Jaqen were the three common men so they were mentioned.

Any theory that Syrio was in thrown into the black cells must have a very good explanation for why Syrio was not on this list.

Ah right, I misread your post, my apologies, you are right. Disregard my previous post.
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We know that due to the timeline, Syrio would have had to replace a prisoner already there. A common reason for this is the suggestion that Faceless Men can only take the faces of those they kill. However, the kindly man appears with a skull, complete with graveworm. Now, either this blows the 'faces of those they kill' theory out the water, or we say that the faces change as the original body changes (which is how he got the skull face), which leads us with the problem of how they prevent all the bodies of those they've killed from rotting. For any long term mission, they would have to show changes over time, which would not come from the original bodies, as they are dead. Which would mean they have to be able to modify the faces they've taken to change them. So how different is taking a new face from changing an old one?

Sorry, meant to say that in a much shorter and more succint manner, but got carried away. Hope you get the gist, cause I lost track of the logic myself a couple of times.

Also, I thought there were 9 free cities. I've always counted Braavos, Ibben, Quohor, Norvos, Pentos, Tyrosh, Lys, Myr and Volantis. If Lorathh is also one, doesn't that make 10? Or am i just mis remembering the '9 Free Cities' thing?

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Guest Other-in-law

Also, I thought there were 9 free cities. I've always counted Braavos, Ibben, Quohor, Norvos, Pentos, Tyrosh, Lys, Myr and Volantis. If Lorathh is also one, doesn't that make 10? Or am i just mis remembering the '9 Free Cities' thing?

Ibben is not one of the Free Cities, it's a totally separate island nation far to the north of the Free Cities. Also, no "u" in Qohor.

As to the changing faces, we have even more evidence of modification, from Arya's time in HoB&W:

"The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely."

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Pate's legs seem to disappear in a pool of blood, can that help us at all when looking at where the bodies go? Is it possible that the faceless men somehow magically steal their bodies leaving only the blood? Or is there a better explanation of what happens to Pate?

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Pate's legs seem to disappear in a pool of blood, can that help us at all when looking at where the bodies go? Is it possible that the faceless men somehow magically steal their bodies leaving only the blood? Or is there a better explanation of what happens to Pate?

No. You're misquoting, his legs turn to water. Which is an expression for him not being able to stand because the poison has taken hold of him.

Just like the timeline for Syrio to be Jaquen doesn't allow for it, unless you add in Varys' help, another prisoner Jaquen, a low jacking of Arya, an excessive laggardly Yoren, and an impossible escape from Trant.

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I don't think the faceless men can only take the faces of people they kill. I think they are willing to kill somebody and then assume that person's identity in order to carry out a mission. But I don't think they are stuck with only changing their faces to those of their victims. It's more a matter of choosing an appearance that will fit in and provide them with excellent cover.

As for the Syrio = Jaqen, I have to say I'm on the disbeliever side in this one. I thought Syrio was a fine teacher for Arya and I loved how he protected her from the Lannisters. I also greatly enjoyed Jaqen's time in the story. But they don't have to be the same person. Syrio was a very competent swordsman, and we don't see him die, but that doesn't mean he magically changed his appearance and came back to look after Arya some more. It's just that people liked him so much that they don't want to see him go. If we believe that he took another identity we can think that he's still around.

ASOIF is a big story, characters come and go. Not all of them will get the big on-screen death we would like for them. It's sad, but that happens. I, personally, want Sandor Clegane to still be alive and do some more bad-assery. There is evidence that he may be, but GRRM may also be planting red herrings. I was very upset when I heard he had died, offscreen. An on-screen death would have made me sad, but I would have accepted it. Now I have to wait for Dance (and possibly beyond) to find out if my hopes are in vain. I'm just saying, we can want a character to survive, but it's all up to GRRM and we should enjoy them while we have them.

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ASOIF is a big story, characters come and go. Not all of them will get the big on-screen death we would like for them. It's sad, but that happens. I, personally, want Sandor Clegane to still be alive and do some more bad-assery. There is evidence that he may be, but GRRM may also be planting red herrings. I was very upset when I heard he had died, offscreen. An on-screen death would have made me sad, but I would have accepted it. Now I have to wait for Dance (and possibly beyond) to find out if my hopes are in vain. I'm just saying, we can want a character to survive, but it's all up to GRRM and we should enjoy them while we have them.

Sandor is definitely alive (so dont worry too much). Too much Gregor vs Sandor buildup in early books. It will be Ser Sandor vs Frankengregor. And sadly we will have to wait for The Winds of Winter. Also sadly I think Gregor will win the fight giving Sandor a tragic death (Bran will defeat Gregor though).

This went from I'm definitely sure to wild speculation, but we shall see.

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We know that due to the timeline, Syrio would have had to replace a prisoner already there. A common reason for this is the suggestion that Faceless Men can only take the faces of those they kill. However, the kindly man appears with a skull, complete with graveworm. Now, either this blows the 'faces of those they kill' theory out the water, or we say that the faces change as the original body changes (which is how he got the skull face), which leads us with the problem of how they prevent all the bodies of those they've killed from rotting. For any long term mission, they would have to show changes over time, which would not come from the original bodies, as they are dead. Which would mean they have to be able to modify the faces they've taken to change them. So how different is taking a new face from changing an old one?

Sorry, meant to say that in a much shorter and more succint manner, but got carried away. Hope you get the gist, cause I lost track of the logic myself a couple of times.

No worries. ;) One can actually imagine other alternatives - perhaps the ability the kindly old man has is restricted to him, or perhaps FM can alter their appearance in some ways freely, but only take the face of a specific individual if they kill him - but I tend to think you're right. It's unlikely that they must kill someone to impersonate them. (Although obviously, it makes life easier if the original person isn't around to blow their cover.)

With regard to the Syrio/Jaqen theory, though, for various reasons it seems highly likely that Jaqen must actually have been in the cells to start with. Principally, this is because there is evidence that people do actually keep track of who is put in the Black Cells and who is released (Longwaters, for one). So there's still a problem: what happened to Jaqen's body? Why does Longwaters refer to 'three common men' and not Syrio? Why does nobody wonder what became of Syrio?

It's possible to come up with an explanation that deals with these questions, of course, but that proves little. If you want to, you can come up with an explanation of why Ned might still be alive or why Hot Pie might be Azor Ahai Reborn. The problem is that the explanation here involves a lot of background events unseen by the reader, and a lot of convenient coincidences, all of which exist solely to make the theory work. That's cruft, and the more cruft a theory needs the more we are entitled to dismiss it. Syrio == Jaqen needs a heck of a lot of cruft.

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I think we need to consider that the man in charge of the Black Cells was, in fact, Varys.

We also know that there are ways into them from the Tower of the Hand that do not involve going in the front door and presenting the prisoner to Longwaters to be entered on the books. An inconvenient body could be disposed of in the same way.

Varys is not a PoV character. That leaves huge spaces of time where his activities are unknown. I do want to look at AGoT again, and see what we do see of his movements there, because that may offer some hints.

Certainly, any Jaquen = Syrio theory depends upon Varys' complicity, and Varys' motives are notoriously difficult to plumb.

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I think we need to consider that the man in charge of the Black Cells was, in fact, Varys.

Varys/Rugen is an undergaoler. He was not really 'in charge of' the Black Cells: he worked for Longwaters. Again, read Longwaters' account to Jaime - he was clearly very familiar with goings-on down there, so it's not even as if he was only theoretically in charge, like Payne.

Rugen certainly had access to the Black Cells, but to say he was 'in charge' of them is overstating, I feel.

We also know that there are ways into them from the Tower of the Hand that do not involve going in the front door and presenting the prisoner to Longwaters to be entered on the books. An inconvenient body could be disposed of in the same way.

Varys is not a PoV character. That leaves huge spaces of time where his activities are unknown. I do want to look at AGoT again, and see what we do see of his movements there, because that may offer some hints.

Certainly, any Jaquen = Syrio theory depends upon Varys' complicity, and Varys' motives are notoriously difficult to plumb.

As I said above: this is all cruft, and the more cruft you need, the weaker the theory. Nor does it answer the biggest question, which is why this would be done? Why would Varys smuggle a Faceless Man posing as the former First Sword of Braavos (who has just completed an unlikely escape from death at the hands of a Kingsguard) into the Black Cells to replace a Lorathi prisoner of unusual and distinctive appearance? So that he could join Yoren and accompany Arya? But he could walk up to Yoren and join - and he wouldn't be in a cage.

Besides, the prisoners, including Jaqen, were almost certainly removed from the Black Cells before Syrio fought Trant (see past threads), thus meaning that the above couldn't have happened.

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Sandor is definitely alive (so dont worry too much). Too much Gregor vs Sandor buildup in early books. It will be Ser Sandor vs Frankengregor. And sadly we will have to wait for The Winds of Winter. Also sadly I think Gregor will win the fight giving Sandor a tragic death (Bran will defeat Gregor though).

This went from I'm definitely sure to wild speculation, but we shall see.

You gladden my heart, Lord Storm, may your reign be long and prosperous. :)

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My question to all who believe that "Syrio = Jaqen":

Why would Jaqen, a Faceless Man, want to impersonate a weapon master and waste time on giving swordsmanship lessons to somebody he doesn't know? He gives all impression that he has a work to do in Westros.

All i can offer i already said and that is guesswork mostly.

Not that i really, really want to believe this theory but i find it interesting matter all in all.

We know Illyrio was there. Maybe he brought an FM with him or paid for him.

Being in the place of Sword master training Arya would put FM within easy reach of any potential target in the Court.

He may have had a specific target or he may have been just a sleeper, ready to be used.

A lot of things depend on whether Varys knew about him or not, and why exactly he went to the wall. If he merely wanted to travel there were other ways to do it.

Was he there for Eddard who was supposed to join Yorren or for Arya... which isnt so likely... its really hard to say. Those are just some options that would look somewhat reasonable - ie not completely loony.

We know from how Jaqen behaves that an FM can accept certain responsibilities very seriously even if they have nothing to do with some official mission - mabye traveling with Yorren was a quick way out for Syrio giving him opportunity to stay with Eddard/Arya and still move toward his other official target.

Its all circumstantial and if its true that prisoners were moved and given to Yorren before Syrio fought Trant then its impossible. Has that been totally verified?

Its just that there is a lot of small very suspicious coincidences between Syrio and Jaqen.

Andwhile i cant use any as proof they all pile up in my mind and im suspicious about that whole deal.

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Its all circumstantial and if its true that prisoners were moved and given to Yorren before Syrio fought Trant then its impossible. Has that been totally verified?

"There were others, three common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order."

Does it make sense to say that Lord Stark was the one that did the giving of someone who was arrested when Lord Stark was no longer even in power? Does it make sense to describe the papers of a Hand who was arrested for treason as being 'in proper order'? No and no.

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"There were others, three common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order."

Does it make sense to say that Lord Stark was the one that did the giving of someone who was arrested when Lord Stark was no longer even in power? Does it make sense to describe the papers of a Hand who was arrested for treason as being 'in proper order'? No and no.

So?

Is that all?

He gave the order but prisoners werent given to Yoren until after Eddard was imprisoned, right?

That leaves ample time for FM to get himself amongst them by taking the role (and probably life) of Jaqen, a man from Lorath.

With or without Varys help.

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