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Syrio == Jaqen


Mixta

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If nobody had any reason to countermand Ned's order, though, they'd just let it stand. His being executed doesn't invalidate everything that he did; his orders would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. In this case, it doesn't seem like anybody else cared about those prisoners, so the wheels Ned had set in motion stayed in motion. There's nothing strange about that, it's just the way governments work.

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Guest Other-in-law

He gave the order but prisoners werent given to Yoren until after Eddard was imprisoned, right?

Not really. There's no indication that Yoren didn't take custody of the prisoners until after Ned was imprisoned. Why would he wait, when there was no expectation that Ned would be imprisoned when he gave the order? The main benefit for the crown in giving those prisoners is that they no longer have to feed them anymore; they become the NW's responsibility.

That leaves ample time for FM to get himself amongst them by taking the role (and probably life) of Jaqen, a man from Lorath.

With or without Varys help.

Except that it would be just about the most idiotic thing the FM could do. No benefit and massive disadvantages. And it would be pretty crappy storytelling to boot.

If nobody had any reason to countermand Ned's order, though, they'd just let it stand. His being executed doesn't invalidate everything that he did; his orders would have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. In this case, it doesn't seem like anybody else cared about those prisoners, so the wheels Ned had set in motion stayed in motion. There's nothing strange about that, it's just the way governments work.

Oh? Tyrion was in the Black Cells at the end of aSoS. Tywin said he wanted to have him take the black instead of being executed. IF that had happened, do you think anyone would claim Ned Stark gave Tyrion to the Watch, on the basis of his old orders? Or that Ned was nearly sent to the NW on his own orders? Of course not; it would be ridiculous. But that's essentially what you're claiming here, that a deposed Hand's orders would apply to brand new cases...even to someone arrested as part of the purge that brought Ned himself down. No. Sorry, that's actually not how governments work at all.

Not that there's the slightest reason the Lannisters would want to take Syrio in alive in the first place. They had no qualms about offending the gods by murdering a holy Septa in the Stark purge; why on earth would they give a fig about the life of some foreigner who fought back?

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Remember, Varys did not know who killed Jon Arryn. He probably does suspect Jon Arryn was assassinated, but does not know who did it. As good as his information is, he can't be sure. He does know that the game has many players, any one of which he might need to eliminate, quickly and quietly.

With Illyrio's backing (because Littlefinger may be the target) he hires a Faceless Man, and arranges a place for him at court, close to the one man he knows cannot be guilty, but is apt to become the target of future intrigues. It needs to be an innocuous post. The Hand's daughter's dancing master is just such a post.

Remember that Jaqen H'gar expresses to Arya that his missions can take as long as they need to:

"Speak the name, and death will come. On the morrow, at the turn of the moon, a year from this day, it will come. A man does not fly like a bird, but one foot moves and then another and one day a man is there, and a king dies."

Why does Varys try to get Ned sent to the Wall instead of executed? That is harder to answer, if he is a Targaryen loyalist. Perhaps he means to keep Ned alive, with the chance of restoring Winterfell to him when Daenerys is established, in return for his support. This fits with his old game with Illyrio of parting people from their property to profit by restoring it later.

The Faceless Man, caught in the events of the Lannister strike on the Tower of the Hand, could have yielded Arya up and possibly earned a reward. Or, just as surely, he could be killed in any case. But he is not "no one, truly" at this time. He is Syrio Forel, who was First Sword to the Sealord of Braavos, and acts in character, buying Arya time to escape.

How, then, does he survive? Perhaps at Varys' intervention. This is a man well-known in Braavos, dangerous yes, but perhaps good for a ransom, and the crown owed a vast sum to the Iron Bank. Take him alive and we will put him in the Black Cells. The tough part here is that such an order must have been delivered after Arya had departed, and before Ser Meryn Trant landed a killing blow.

But we never see Syrio injured, much less killed. On the other hand, when we next see Ser Meryn Trant, neither does he show signs of injury that Sansa notices. Syrio's fate is never shown, nor spoken of in our hearing. It remains open-ended, leaving the possibility of his having been Jaqen H'gar.

Until Martin says one way or another, it will remain an open question.

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But we never see Syrio injured, much less killed. On the other hand, when we next see Ser Meryn Trant, neither does he show signs of injury that Sansa notices. Syrio's fate is never shown, nor spoken of in our hearing. It remains open-ended, leaving the possibility of his having been Jaqen H'gar.

Until Martin says one way or another, it will remain an open question.

Thats one of the "problems" that bugg me about this issue. This "no info" zone around Syrio.

Sure he may not be important enough for any of the characters in those events to worry about, remember or mention afterward and situation was such that one dead dancing teacher wouldnt register especially but from the point of writer vs reader - its suspicious as hell.

We see that Syrio is extremely important for Arya. She bases all of her survival on his teachings later on. his mantras have become a part of Arya character. And yet, no word at all. Nothing. Zero, Nada.

And we have one guardian/protector/teacher just disappears only to be promptly be replaced with another who is almost the same. Similar mannerism, similar talk, philosophy etc. And that other guardian/protector/teacher just appeared out of nowhere. Without a word of explanation.

Not really. There's no indication that Yoren didn't take custody of the prisoners until after Ned was imprisoned. Why would he wait, when there was no expectation that Ned would be imprisoned when he gave the order? The main benefit for the crown in giving those prisoners is that they no longer have to feed them anymore; they become the NW's responsibility.

Yoren was definitely waiting for Eddard.

I doubt he got his prisoners before the whole thing went up because he would have been long gone by the time troubles started. He didnt get them during the fighting thats for sure.

I should reared that part but i think he got his men after the battle settled down and then been given an advice to wait for Eddard.

Except that it would be just about the most idiotic thing the FM could do. No benefit and massive disadvantages. And it would be pretty crappy storytelling to boot.

I think it might be possible that a FM didnt mind being in the cage too much, reasoning that he will eventually get out more or less easily because of his abilities.

After all he did need to go to the citadel to perform an official task there any yet he traveled in the cage.

- Nothing Martin writes can be proclaimed crappy storytelling in advance. ;)

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Guest Other-in-law

We see that Syrio is extremely important for Arya. She bases all of her survival on his teachings later on. his mantras have become a part of Arya character. And yet, no word at all. Nothing. Zero, Nada.

No, Cersei dismissively mentioned that he "got in the way".

And we have one guardian/protector/teacher just disappears only to be promptly be replaced with another who is almost the same. Similar mannerism, similar talk, philosophy etc.

Uh...no. Similar mannerism? Like what? Does Jaqen ever click his teeth? Similar talk is just because they are among the several hundreds of thousands of people from the Free Cities..nothing extraordinary there. You might as well claim Greenbeard is really Syrio. Similar philosophy??? Name one single similarity.

Yoren was definitely waiting for Eddard.
He was packed and ready to go when he was told to wait. That doesn't mean he didn't have the prisoners.
I doubt he got his prisoners before the whole thing went up because he would have been long gone by the time troubles started. He didnt get them during the fighting thats for sure.
No, but getting them after, on Ned's authority is just as improbable. He almost certainly got them before.
I should reared that part but i think he got his men after the battle settled down and then been given an advice to wait for Eddard.

It definitely does not say that in the text.

I think it might be possible that a FM didnt mind being in the cage too much, reasoning that he will eventually get out more or less easily because of his abilities.

And yet he almost died in a fire because of those chains and their escape had nothing to do with his abilities. One of his companions hacked the floor out of the wagon with an axe.

After all he did need to go to the citadel to perform an official task there any yet he traveled in the cage.

I have no idea what you're even saying here. He didn't travel to the Citadel in a cage.

- Nothing Martin writes can be proclaimed crappy storytelling in advance. ;)

We're not even talking about anything GRRM has written; we're talking about lame and illogical fan theories.

Getting back to Rennifer Longwaters' statement which people seem to just skip past or ignore:

Supposing that Syrio was arrested instead of killed outright like the dangerous Septa Mordane, put in the Black Cells, and then it was later determined by someone in authority to give him to the NW. Why would Longwaters say that Lord Stark gave him to the Watch? Ned would not have been the one deciding the case even if it was his original order; it would have been someone else making the call to proceed. It would simply be a bizarre thing for Longwaters to say if that was how it happened, and it could so easily have been written differently if that was the intended message the author wished to convey. Seriously, that comment by Longwaters reads like GRRM confirming in his own way that Syrio =/= Jaqen.

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If nobody had any reason to countermand Ned's order, though, they'd just let it stand.

Don't you think that Ned confessing to treason and being imprisoned in the Black Cells himself at least amounts to a reason to perhaps question his orders? Particularly if said order is handed to you in the immediate aftermath of these events, by a man your current boss regards as an ally of Ned, and concerns the release of people who are in the cell next door to his?

Moreover, we have to assume that Syrio was never caught but instead substituted for Jaqen, or we would be suggesting that the order also involves giving one Stark loyalist into the custody of another, freeing a prisoner who killed several Lannister men in the process of helping Ned's daughter escape. If you didn't question that order, your life expectancy would be pretty short, I feel.

Finally, it's odd that Longwaters feels no need to mention to Jaime that the order was implemented while Ned was in the Cells. That seems worthy of comment, if only to point out that it was perfectly in order, don't you think?

When you consider all the factors, it stretches credulity way too far to suggest that Yoren could possibly have been allowed to wander into the Black Cells and help himself to recruits on Ned's say-so unless Ned was currently in power.

I'll add that if FM-Syrio took the place of real-Jaqen, then a lot of the arguments for them being the same person are invalidated. if real-Jaqen was a Free Cities man, then the similarity of his accent to Syrio's, for example, is a complete coincidence. And if it's a coincidence under this theory, then it could be a coincidence anyway.

Until Martin says one way or another, it will remain an open question.

This is a copout, I'm afraid. GRRM very rarely supplies definitive answers to these issues. (His statements on this one, while not definitive, do suggest that he is somewhat perplexed by the suggestion that Syrio is still alive.)

We are perfectly entitled to evaluate theories and reach conclusions on our own. By any reasonable evaluation, the idea that Syrio = Jaqen has enormous problems and can be safely regarded as very unlikely. Calling it 'an open question' suggests that it is as likely to be true as not. That just isn't so.

Thats one of the "problems" that bugg me about this issue. This "no info" zone around Syrio.

No, there isn't. There's only a lack of information if we assume that there ought to be more information, which is simply begging the question.

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Eddard Stark gave Yoren his pick of the Black Cells. This was hardly unusual. Convicts had been going to the Wall for a long time. Practically standard procedure.

Eddard's writ would not suffice for Yoren to grab Eddard himself before he faced trial, certainly. But all that is needed is for Jaqen H'ghar to have been in the Black Cells, and for Varys to have gotten the Faceless Man (Syrio) in there prior to Yoren getting the three he had come for.

We know Varys is Rugen, we know that there are passages into the Black Cells from the Tower of the Hand (where we last see Syrio Forel).

We do see Septa Mordane's head. In fact, in one way or another, we learn the fate of most of the named members of the Hand's household, including Jeyne Poole. Not so Syrio Forel.

Braavos has financial clout at court through the debts to the Iron Bank, which could be played as a reason for keeping Syrio alive.

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Eddard Stark gave Yoren his pick of the Black Cells. This was hardly unusual. Convicts had been going to the Wall for a long time. Practically standard procedure.

I'm not sure we can safely assume this to be the case, in fact. But even if we could, it's irrelevant. Yoren being given the pick of the Black Cells is not the part that's unusual. Yoren being allowed to do so on the authority of a man who's in them himself is not only unusual, but literally incredible.

Eddard's writ would not suffice for Yoren to grab Eddard himself before he faced trial, certainly. But all that is needed is for Jaqen H'ghar to have been in the Black Cells, and for Varys to have gotten the Faceless Man (Syrio) in there prior to Yoren getting the three he had come for.

Quite. And I've already pointed out the major problems with assuming that these events actually happened. They are many and varied and so far, unanswered. But as I've said before, even if someone can come up with the answers, what we are left with is a theory that requires far too many behind-the-scenes events and explanations to be a credible explanation for what is, in the last analysis, a very minor plot point even if it were true.

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I'm not sure we can safely assume this to be the case, in fact. But even if we could, it's irrelevant. Yoren being given the pick of the Black Cells is not the part that's unusual. Yoren being allowed to do so on the authority of a man who's in them himself is not only unusual, but literally incredible.

Its not incredible at all.

Giving men away to Night watch is as usual as saying "bugger yourself" in Westeros.

Its been done for hundreds of years and is a common everyday practice.

Especially when it comes to using criminals and sentenced men.

The "order" Ned issued is merely a formality confirming the usual goings on in Red Keep.

A castle, mind you, thats accustomed of changing of Hands lately, mkay?

Life doesnt stop because the King changed a hand.

Especially something so ingrained in daily routine of Red Keep, something so well known its a tradition in all of the country for hundreds of years already.

Those men were just scum from the cells and no one would pay much attention to some document about it having Stark signature.

Infact - it had a Hands signature and thats enough - because the next Hand would do the same and everyone knows it.

Its not like Eddard decided those particular three will go himself which would make it at least somewhat suspicious. Theyre just scum. Trash.

Even if someone looked at it order would be just forwarded.

Quite. And I've already pointed out the major problems with assuming that these events actually happened. They are many and varied and so far, unanswered. But as I've said before, even if someone can come up with the answers, what we are left with is a theory that requires far too many behind-the-scenes events and explanations to be a credible explanation for what is, in the last analysis, a very minor plot point even if it were true.

What a FM was doing in Red keep at the time of Roberts assassination and following events is certainly not a "very minor plot point".

/

And this is not, in my case, a case of a fan wishful thinking and refusing to listen to arguments but an itch i cant scratch type of thing.

While i appreciate info that will allow me to maybe learn more about it i dont need that type of simplistic accusations as arguments.

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Uh...no. Similar mannerism? Like what? Does Jaqen ever click his teeth? Similar talk is just because they are among the several hundreds of thousands of people from the Free Cities..nothing extraordinary there. You might as well claim Greenbeard is really Syrio. Similar philosophy??? Name one single similarity.

hah! easily!

It does not matter is there are hundreds of thousands of Brqavoosi in Bravoos. We are not reading a book about Brevoos but a book where Syrio and Jaqen stand out among people of Kings landing.

Both in the same role toward Arya.

One after another. First one disappears without an explanation, another appears without explanation right after.

Compared to a westeros person they do talk in a similar manner.

The "Just so`s" and the rest.

Clicking of teeth was a distinguishing character trait of Syrio Forel, no self respecting FM would allow himself to transfer such traits to a new face. Imagine the shame! He would be a ridicule in his parts of catacombs forever!

As to philosophy i wasnt referring to particular teachings of Faceless Men but rather some very similar general attitudes Jaqen and Syrio share, you might say.

First are the lessons that everything must be earned. That there are no gifts that come freely and that prices must be paid.

They both teach her the hard way, demanding her best efforts.

Syrio prepares her in physical combat, giving her basics of sword fighting suitable for her size and capabilities - yet he takes her through mantras that require to relinquish herself ie - become still like water, fast as a dear etc

To forget herself.

It may all turn out to be a coincidence ok? But, there are similarities and connecting points there. Something is just funny about it and the counter theory of FM being imprisoned without anyone realizing he is an FM, or with someone (Varys) knowing but packing him off in a cage which almost killed him - isnt the brightest one either.

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Its not incredible at all.

Giving men away to Night watch is as usual as saying "bugger yourself" in Westeros.

Its been done for hundreds of years and is a common everyday practice.

Especially when it comes to using criminals and sentenced men.

The "order" Ned issued is merely a formality confirming the usual goings on in Red Keep.

A castle, mind you, thats accustomed of changing of Hands lately, mkay?

Life doesnt stop because the King changed a hand.

Especially something so ingrained in daily routine of Red Keep, something so well known its a tradition in all of the country for hundreds of years already.

Those men were just scum from the cells and no one would pay much attention to some document about it having Stark signature.

Infact - it had a Hands signature and thats enough - because the next Hand would do the same and everyone knows it.

Its not like Eddard decided those particular three will go himself which would make it at least somewhat suspicious. Theyre just scum. Trash.

Even if someone looked at it order would be just forwarded.

What a FM was doing in Red keep at the time of Roberts assassination and following events is certainly not a "very minor plot point".

/

And this is not, in my case, a case of a fan wishful thinking and refusing to listen to arguments but an itch i cant scratch type of thing.

While i appreciate info that will allow me to maybe learn more about it i dont need that type of simplistic accusations as arguments.

Not all criminals get the chance to join the NW. Bywater specifically stated that he did not think it right for three common men to be released indicating that releasing such criminals was unusual. If all those condemned to death got the chance to join the NW there would be no need for an executioner in KL. Furthermore, Bywater seems to be a pedantic bureaucrat who is very careful to keep his books in order to cover for himself. If there was anything wrong with the papers, such as being issued by a traitor, Bywater would have made an inquiry regarding what to do.

Regarding what Jaqen was doing in Westeros, see

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Its not incredible at all.

Giving men away to Night watch is as usual as saying "bugger yourself" in Westeros.

I never suggested it wasn't. If you think that's what I was describing as 'incredible', I suggest you should go back and read more carefully.

The "order" Ned issued is merely a formality confirming the usual goings on in Red Keep.

Is it? What proof do we have that the removal of prisoners from the Black Cells, specifically, is such a trivial matter that even an order from a deposed traitor would do for authority? And if it really is that incredibly trivial, why is there a need for an order from the second most powerful man in the kingdom at all?

You're even claiming this is a 'daily' thing, which is obviously silly - the NW don't turn up in KL 'daily'. I would doubt they do so even often enough that this could be described as 'routine', even if it happened every time a NW recruiter passed.

This is simply backwards reasoning. To reach your preferred conclusion, you need the order to be trivial: ergo, you argue, it must be.

A castle, mind you, thats accustomed of changing of Hands lately, mkay?

The only 'recent' change is Jon Arryn's death. The others were fifteen years ago. But regardless, this is irrelevant - unless you have an example of an order by a traitor being carried out without remark. No such example exists so far as I know, so we are left with arguments from common sense. I think it would strike most people as very odd if this order was obeyed unquestioningly, based on the points I made above.

What a FM was doing in Red keep at the time of Roberts assassination and following events is certainly not a "very minor plot point".

Yes, it is, I'm afraid. The plot is no longer concerned with Robert's assassination (for which we have a full explanation not involving the FM).

And this is not, in my case, a case of a fan wishful thinking

Yes, it is, I'm afraid. Your entire 'argument' consists of merely asserting, without evidence, that the things that need to be true for Syrio to be alive, are true. That kind of 'reasoning' is the absolute hallmark of wishful thinking. And you have failed to address the points against your argument, which does indeed suggest that you're ignoring them.

Compared to a westeros person they do talk in a similar manner.

The "Just so`s" and the rest.

As I said above: if your argument is that Syrio killed Jaqen and took his place, this is a coincidence and means nothing. You can't have it both ways.

Clicking of teeth was a distinguishing character trait of Syrio Forel, no self respecting FM would allow himself to transfer such traits to a new face.

So why would he transfer the 'just so', etc? Again, you can't have it both ways.

As to philosophy i wasnt referring to particular teachings of Faceless Men but rather some very similar general attitudes Jaqen and Syrio share, you might say.

As general as you need them to be, you might say.

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Alright, I'm dragging my hungover, slow-hamster wheel brain into this. Please forgive my flippancy in advance.

New evidence comes to light? Uh, did a book get published and I blinked and missed it? We have the same evidence we've had for the past however many years on this topic.

That said, let's go!

Someone made a point about Syrio being Braavosi, and therefore him needing to be kept alive for the Iron Bank's goodwill. These aren't modern times, Syrio was a bladework teacher, working solo - he's on his own, as far as Braavos is concerned, otherwise I imagine there would have been more than a few military or political disputes over the death of every mercernary from the Free Cities in Westeros. Simply not so.

Syrio clicks his teeth, was employed by Ned, and is a wonderful start to Arya. Yes, he is from Braavos, and a water dancer. Its not a style you will find in Westeros, usually.

Jaqen is a Faceless Man, who does not click his teeth iirc, is an appearance shifting assassin, and we're seriously counting as evidence they are the same man, above everything else, just because they use a phrase "just so" - which is potentially as common in the Free Cities as "valar morghulis" or "valar dohaeris"??

This is too much of a stretch, to make them one and the same person. Syrio is mentioned by Cersei as the dancing master, and him having given trouble - if Lannisters had been thwarted by him, there would be more on it. "The dancing master got away - put a price on his head." We hear nothing else about him, because he's dead. Like the septa, and other household members who died after providing "good time" interaction in the text for the Starks to lose everything.

Arya has a great personality, and even in Westeros, you'd have to be particularly heartless to turn away some scrawny child with an attitude demanding you help them. If it's in your power, why not? And Jaqen, whilst helping Arya in her wishes for death, does let her swing by her own choices.

Syrio also says how he served the Sealord of Braavos for nine years. Has Jaqen been sitting on his butt for nine years, waiting for this moment? Syrio's words and mantras to Arya are backed up by personal stories, bruises, hours of training. Of course she'll think of him in dire straits. He is the man who taught her, after Jon, where to stick the pointy end.

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Syrio was a faceless man, the years of service as first sword were simply a cover story to get him into King's Landing. He was there as an assasin to kill Robert which he accomplished in the form of a boar.

Think about it - the action happens off stage (and therefore is obviously a sign to be suspicious) so we can't see it and the boar's death is reported to us by unreliable witnesses: Robert is drunk and in pain, his companions clearly upset and in no condition to observe that the boar escaped, substituting itself with a boar corpse which it had prepared earlier.

Safely back in King's Landing Syrio escapes death, not by transforming into Jaqen, but into Meryn Trant, leaving him perfectly placed to do nothing much.

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hehehe, Lummel, as good a theory as anything else.

I come back to the board every once in a very long while and see the same topics each time. I think by now we can accept that there is no convincing evidence one way or the other on this topic. Why do I say so? Because this discussion has been going on for years and one side has never been able to convince the other. That's pretty convincing evidence that the evidence isn't convincing.

The only hope is that Martin makes some mention of Syrio in a future book that settles the issue for good and one side can smugly and happily say I told you so. If Syrio is never again mentioned in a way that puts the issue to rest, readers can happily go on believing whatever they want to believe about his fate and can go on passionately deriding those that see things differently.

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I am not going to make the same proclamation I made 5 (yep, FIVE) years ago:

The longer it takes for the next book to be released, the more "imaginative" new theories begin to get. Its like seeing a Mirage- like a man dying of thirst in the desert who sees a deep blue lake in the distance where no lake exists, people are looking "off page" at evidence and ideas that are simply not there.

The OP's only real evidence is that Syrio and Jaquen are both Bravossi and were both in KL at about the same time, and the two men are never seen together. By that logic, Littlefinger and Ser Rodrick Kessel could be the same person (both were in KL for a time yet the two are never seen together).

I just think these theories are borne from boredom and lack any semblance of continuity or logic. And they also address small areas of the story that are relatively unimportant- my enjoyment of the books is completely unchanged if Syrio and Jaqen are the same dude.

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I just think these theories are borne from boredom and lack any semblance of continuity or logic. And they also address small areas of the story that are relatively unimportant- my enjoyment of the books is completely unchanged if Syrio and Jaqen are the same dude.

Im usually annoyed by all the crazy crackpot theories swarming around, and its true that lacking a new book every little piece of books was over analyzed.

It just happens this is one subject (or two if Syrio isnt jaqen after all) which interests me, personally you might say. :ninja:

Just like someone else would like to know some other hidden detail or explanation of some event, or what happened to some other character etc.

On a side note, i missed all those threads about the issue on these boards... which means, really, youll have one now, again, even if i have to drag someone in kicking and screaming. :drunk: :dunce:

Nah, im only joking. Im a nice guy usually and i dont do things that way. Just couldnt resist saying it.

Instead of maybe : If you have a problem with this theme either post something interesting about it or.. hey - dont post at all because its sure better and more fruitful then posting complaints that such a thread even exists?

I never suggested it wasn't. If you think that's what I was describing as 'incredible', I suggest you should go back and read more carefully.

No thanks, youre pretty simple to understand.

Is it? What proof do we have that the removal of prisoners from the Black Cells, specifically, is such a trivial matter that even an order from a deposed traitor would do for authority? And if it really is that incredibly trivial, why is there a need for an order from the second most powerful man in the kingdom at all?

Where did i use word trivial in my post?

Please dont respond to imaginary constructions. It doesnt make you look well thought out.

As for example this does:

You're even claiming this is a 'daily' thing, which is obviously silly - the NW don't turn up in KL 'daily'. I would doubt they do so even often enough that this could be described as 'routine', even if it happened every time a NW recruiter passed.

Im claiming what? Daily thing? Are you sure you werent reading random stuff on the internets and confused something with what i posted?

This is simply backwards reasoning. To reach your preferred conclusion, you need the order to be trivial: ergo, you argue, it must be.

So youre telling me what im doing here?

Did i say "It must be" anywhere in there?

Oh ok - it is obvious what i really mean, right? :ack:

Yes, it is, I'm afraid. The plot is no longer concerned with Robert's assassination (for which we have a full explanation not involving the FM).

ahh... i didnt say he had anything to do with Roberts death, i used that to say he, the FM was inside the Red Keep during those very important events as they unfolded.

But i can see how you could make such a simple mistake in reasoning.

Yes, it is, I'm afraid. Your entire 'argument' consists of merely asserting, without evidence, that the things that need to be true for Syrio to be alive, are true. That kind of 'reasoning' is the absolute hallmark of wishful thinking.

Ok so...thats what im thinking? Right.

Thanks for the update. I recommend making a habit out of it and doing it more often to as many people as you can. :thumbsup:

So why would he transfer the 'just so', etc? Again, you can't have it both ways.

Because "Just so" and other similar expressions and way of talking belong to FM himself and fit with both roles?

could be... you never know! :lmao: :laugh: :laugh: :lmao: :laugh:

As general as you need them to be, you might say.

No i might not and i can still clearly see what i did say.

On the other hand:

Alright, I'm dragging my hungover, slow-hamster wheel brain into this. Please forgive my flippancy in advance.

New evidence comes to light? Uh, did a book get published and I blinked and missed it? We have the same evidence we've had for the past however many years on this topic.

That said, let's go!

Someone made a point about Syrio being Braavosi, and therefore him needing to be kept alive for the Iron Bank's goodwill. These aren't modern times, Syrio was a bladework teacher, working solo - he's on his own, as far as Braavos is concerned, otherwise I imagine there would have been more than a few military or political disputes over the death of every mercernary from the Free Cities in Westeros. Simply not so.

Syrio clicks his teeth, was employed by Ned, and is a wonderful start to Arya. Yes, he is from Braavos, and a water dancer. Its not a style you will find in Westeros, usually.

Jaqen is a Faceless Man, who does not click his teeth iirc, is an appearance shifting assassin, and we're seriously counting as evidence they are the same man, above everything else, just because they use a phrase "just so" - which is potentially as common in the Free Cities as "valar morghulis" or "valar dohaeris"??

This is too much of a stretch, to make them one and the same person. Syrio is mentioned by Cersei as the dancing master, and him having given trouble - if Lannisters had been thwarted by him, there would be more on it. "The dancing master got away - put a price on his head." We hear nothing else about him, because he's dead. Like the septa, and other household members who died after providing "good time" interaction in the text for the Starks to lose everything.

Arya has a great personality, and even in Westeros, you'd have to be particularly heartless to turn away some scrawny child with an attitude demanding you help them. If it's in your power, why not? And Jaqen, whilst helping Arya in her wishes for death, does let her swing by her own choices.

Syrio also says how he served the Sealord of Braavos for nine years. Has Jaqen been sitting on his butt for nine years, waiting for this moment? Syrio's words and mantras to Arya are backed up by personal stories, bruises, hours of training. Of course she'll think of him in dire straits. He is the man who taught her, after Jon, where to stick the pointy end.

This is a post i can appreciate. Not a lot of raw info in it but its a point of view i dont find irritating at first sight.

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No thanks, youre pretty simple to understand.

I tend to think so, yet it seems that you misunderstood me. If that's not the case, I confess I don't see what you were getting at.

Where did i use word trivial in my post?

Please dont respond to imaginary constructions. It doesnt make you look well thought out.

As for example this does:

Im claiming what? Daily thing? Are you sure you werent reading random stuff on the internets and confused something with what i posted?

Like you did above, you mean? Well, since you ask:

Especially something so ingrained in daily routine of Red Keep

And if there is some significant difference between saying that, in addition to

Giving men away to Night watch is as usual as saying "bugger yourself" in Westeros.

The "order" Ned issued is merely a formality confirming the usual goings on in Red Keep.

Those men were just scum from the cells and no one would pay much attention to some document about it having Stark signature.

Even if someone looked at it order would be just forwarded.

and so forth, and describing it as 'trivial', you'll need to explain it, I'm afraid.

So youre telling me what im doing here?

Well, yes. You see, it's what you're doing. That's pretty clear, I'm afraid.

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