Jump to content

Syrio == Jaqen


Mixta

Recommended Posts

Guest Other-in-law

hah! easily!

It does not matter is there are hundreds of thousands of Brqavoosi in Bravoos. We are not reading a book about Brevoos but a book where Syrio and Jaqen stand out among people of Kings landing.

It does matter, because it transforms the language similarity from something rare and significant into something completely ordinary and unremarkable. There's literally nothing to see there.

Both in the same role toward Arya.

One after another. First one disappears without an explanation,

Syrio's fate is hardly inexplicable, no more than Styr the Magnar of Thenn's was when several tons of ice fell on him. But we never saw the corpse of either one! ZOMG!

Compared to a westeros person they do talk in a similar manner.

The "Just so`s" and the rest.

Sure, but talking similarly doesn't mean two people are the same person. Moreover, FM are assuredly trained to alter their accents when playing a role, so it means less than nothing.

Clicking of teeth was a distinguishing character trait of Syrio Forel, no self respecting FM would allow himself to transfer such traits to a new face. Imagine the shame! He would be a ridicule in his parts of catacombs forever!

So you have no examples of similar mannerisms, then? And no self-respecting FM would transfer their mannerisms (perfectly true)? Can you really not see the contradicition here with your original claim that they had similar mannerisms?

As to philosophy i wasnt referring to particular teachings of Faceless Men but rather some very similar general attitudes Jaqen and Syrio share, you might say.

First are the lessons that everything must be earned. That there are no gifts that come freely and that prices must be paid.

They both teach her the hard way, demanding her best efforts.

Syrio prepares her in physical combat, giving her basics of sword fighting suitable for her size and capabilities - yet he takes her through mantras that require to relinquish herself ie - become still like water, fast as a dear etc

To forget herself.

So you've given some examples of Syrio's "philosophy" but not Jaqen's. Not doing to good at establishing a similarity, are you? In fact, Jaqen doesn't even train her. And moreover he himself doesn't do things "the hard way", he uses sneaky tricks and shortcuts. Pushing unsuspecting Chiswyk over a ledge, feeding Weese's dog basilisk blood, treacherously surprising unsuspecting guards in the weasel soup incident...how do any of his actions bear any resemblance to Syrio's?

If Jaqen H'ghar was in Syrio's place when Meryn Trant came in and had the same objective, he wouldn't have made the straightforward, trash-talking confrontation as a prelude to combat, he would have pretended to comply with the guards and then stabbed them in the back as soon as they weren't looking. They're really very dissimilar personalities.

It may all turn out to be a coincidence ok? But, there are similarities and connecting points there.

Some are but they are..what's the best word here? Ah, yes...trivial. The rest really aren't, they're no more than straws that you're grasping for.

Something is just funny about it and the counter theory of FM being imprisoned without anyone realizing he is an FM

:rolleyes: Yeah...because the primary feature of a FM is that you can tell what they are just by looking at them :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It does matter, because it transforms the language similarity from something rare and significant into something completely ordinary and unremarkable. There's literally nothing to see there.

Syrio's fate is hardly inexplicable, no more than Styr the Magnar of Thenn's was when several tons of ice fell on him. But we never saw the corpse of either one! ZOMG!

Sure, but talking similarly doesn't mean two people are the same person. Moreover, FM are assuredly trained to alter their accents when playing a role, so it means less than nothing.

So you have no examples of similar mannerisms, then? And no self-respecting FM would transfer their mannerisms (perfectly true)? Can you really not see the contradicition here with your original claim that they had similar mannerisms?

I said its all circumstancial so there is no need to go berserk about each like they are some kind of crown evidence.

What similarities we can see between Syrio and Jaqen are mostly general ones, distinguishable by their differences to Westeros people general attitude and behaviour.

Im not claiming its something great and awesomly significant.

Its just one of those small things that add up, with other vague ones that come along the way.

And i already said its just something interesting to me which i would like to see explained - cos im curious about that whole thing.

So you've given some examples of Syrio's "philosophy" but not Jaqen's. Not doing to good at establishing a similarity, are you? In fact, Jaqen doesn't even train her. And moreover he himself doesn't do things "the hard way", he uses sneaky tricks and shortcuts. Pushing unsuspecting Chiswyk over a ledge, feeding Weese's dog basilisk blood, treacherously surprising unsuspecting guards in the weasel soup incident...how do any of his actions bear any resemblance to Syrio's?

They are extension actually. Jaqen teaches her a lot of things, directly or indirectly.

She has to carefully negotiate with him, and gets those three kills and has to figure out how to use them, she sees him in action showing her clearly that frontal combat is sometimes unnecessary, he also participates in her strugles with personlity - just through their dialogue, he teaches her that there are other abilities, other ways and it all leans onto her training with Syrio.

Not directly and intentionally... its not some secret clue left by an author - im just saying it fits one with another in some ways like it does.

If Jaqen H'ghar was in Syrio's place when Meryn Trant came in and had the same objective, he wouldn't have made the straightforward, trash-talking confrontation as a prelude to combat, he would have pretended to comply with the guards and then stabbed them in the back as soon as they weren't looking. They're really very dissimilar personalities.

Probably true.

:rolleyes: Yeah...because the primary feature of a FM is that you can tell what they are just by looking at them :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No.. because an FM would be hard to catch like an ordinary criminal?

And he spends all that time in black cells without Varys knowing about it. And he just waits there indefinitely or until they get executed.

I suppose we could imagine he ran into Rorge and Biter and they caused trouble which got them all three in jail...

or something similar... but it feels flimsy to me never the less.

I hope Pate decides to fill us in on those events in future Sam chapters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hehehe, Lummel, as good a theory as anything else.

I come back to the board every once in a very long while and see the same topics each time. I think by now we can accept that there is no convincing evidence one way or the other on this topic. Why do I say so? Because this discussion has been going on for years and one side has never been able to convince the other. That's pretty convincing evidence that the evidence isn't convincing.

The only hope is that Martin makes some mention of Syrio in a future book that settles the issue for good and one side can smugly and happily say I told you so. If Syrio is never again mentioned in a way that puts the issue to rest, readers can happily go on believing whatever they want to believe about his fate and can go on passionately deriding those that see things differently.

Actually I think, as others have already mentioned, that Martin settled the issue in AFFC when he listed all recent occupants of the Black Cells and Syrio was not mentioned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually I think, as others have already mentioned, that Martin settled the issue in AFFC when he listed all recent occupants of the Black Cells and Syrio was not mentioned.

Neither were Jaqen, Rorge or Biter. The only named occupants were Eddard Stark and Tyrion Lannister. The others were numbered. Three went in, three came out.

This was not overlooked. Secret passages to and from the Black Cells are shown to exist, and to connect to the tower of the Hand.

Nor is GRRM's impatience with the question of whether Syrio Forel is alive evidential one way or the other. If the Syrio we saw was a Faceless Man, then it would be reasonable to suppose that the real Syrio Forel was dead beforehand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither were Jaqen, Rorge or Biter. The only named occupants were Eddard Stark and Tyrion Lannister. The others were numbered. Three went in, three came out.

This was not overlooked. Secret passages to and from the Black Cells are shown to exist, and to connect to the tower of the Hand.

Nor is GRRM's impatience with the question of whether Syrio Forel is alive evidential one way or the other. If the Syrio we saw was a Faceless Man, then it would be reasonable to suppose that the real Syrio Forel was dead beforehand.

Does not work. The three common men were released due to papers issued by Eddard and carefully checked by Bywaters. He would certainly not have accepted such papers from a traitor. As such the three common men must have been released before Eddard's imprisonment. Since Syrio's battle was after this Syrio never had the opportunity to take Jaqen's place in the Black Cells since Jaqen had already left.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neither were Jaqen, Rorge or Biter. The only named occupants were Eddard Stark and Tyrion Lannister. The others were numbered. Three went in, three came out.

To be more specific, the same three 'common men' went in and came out. Thus, the only way one of them could have been Syrio is if:

- Syrio escaped from Trant

- then found his way into the Black Cells secretly, perhaps with aid from Varys

- then killed Jaqen, who in this scenario is not only really Lorathi but also a very dangerous criminal in his own right

- then disposed of the body and took his appearance

This scenario poses enormous problems for the usual 'Syrio = Jaqen' theories, as it disposes of a lot of the circumstantial evidence usually used to argue in favour. The similarity of accents, as I've noted, becomes a genuine coincidence so is no longer evidential. There is now a genuinely dangerous Lorathi criminal in the Black Cells with no backstory provided, so the 'explanation' that he is in fact a FM doesn't actually fill that supposed 'gap'. Syrio has now disappeared completely as far as the Lannisters are concerned, somewhat miraculously as the Red Keep was locked down, which exacerbates the difficulty of Syrio's fate being unremarked. And we not only have no explanation of why Syrio would want to do this, but also no explanation of why anyone would want to help him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't believe this to be true, although I don't think Syrio died either. However, what would have been the point for Syrio to spend so much time training Arya? If Syrio was actually a faceless man. And why would Jaqen hide it from Arya? Why wouldn't he speak up when he was chained to the back of that wagon.. be like.. "Yoh Arya.. it's your boy Syrio.. loosen these chains eh?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 years later...

Something I havent seen on here, though I havent read every post. If syrio is jaqen aka a faceless man, why would he only have a wooden sword on him and not some other more deadly weapon tucked away and be able to kill meryn? Also I really agree with the poster directly above me. Syrio swore his word to ned in a way, and he seemed very determined to give arya time to get out of the red keep. If he was syrio, why not reveal himself to arya/ help arya more?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm only going to jump in on one point here, which makes no sense even without this theory. Yoren was alone in the city and actively recruiting, which means he wasn't spending a lot of time loitering wherever he was staying. I highly doubt he would have picked up 3 mass murderers and left them chained inside a room for over a month while he was going about his business/looking for Arya.

There is no valid reason to believe the criminals wouldn't have been released to the watch just because Ned was gone, especially with the chaos in the city. Not only that, but I doubt Varys or Rennifer would be stupid enough to release them just to sit in a completely unsecured room for a month before they intended to leave. The prisoners were of no political value and even late in the series (until Stannis heads north) KL has no reason to go back on a promise to the watch.

This is equally valid whether or not we're talking about Syrio or Jaqen. Just wanted to get this out, because it really bugs me when people insist he had them sitting around playing Cyvasse in the middle of the city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...