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Meribald's Speech is the Heart of Feast


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#1 maxlongstreet

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 07:58 PM

This post was originally intended as thread Necromancy in response to comments about a thread about Septon Meribald's "Broken Men" speech. However, it grew into something longer, so I started my own thread.

For those who found Meribald's commentary on broken men to be an irritating authorial intrusion, I think you are missing what a Feast for Crows is all about. This speech is the heart of the book. This is where war excitement - Renly's "Knights of Summer" - ultimately leads. Slaughter in battle, famine, and men losing their souls. The title "A Feast for Crows" tells us that this book is in many ways a rumination on the costs of war.

Like some other readers, I was impatient on my first reading, feeling like the plot had slowed down and that I wished I could know what was happening in the north. But to read this book just for the plot (and the plot is great, as always) is to miss Martin taking the depth of his work to a new level. It forces one to view characters not just from whether we like their personality or whether or not they are personally honorable, but through the lens of the consequences of their actions on other people, unnoticed people as well as the famous.

Viewed through this lens, Varys can be viewed as the heroic ideal of ASOIAF. The Whisperer does not appear in Feast, but his ethos is fully echoed in Meribald's speech. Varys has no personal ambition; he has no lusts; he cares not whether he is liked or hated. Like Meribald, he has learned to shed his ego for a larger purpose. He is viewed with contempt and mistrust by those he serves. Once he is asked what his goals are, and he answers with a single word: peace. He strives to prevent what has happened in Feast, and his failure does not make him less heroic. He tries and fails to save Ned Stark's life, not for one man, but because he knows Ned's death means war and death across Westeros. Unlike Littlefinger who schemes for power, Varys schemes for peace. He is common born, mistreated, castrated, and he is one of the few in a position of power in ASOIAF who thinks of the impact "The Game of Thrones" has on the common man.

Coming back to Meribald's speech, it's worth noting where it occurs in both place and time. It comes halfway through the fourth book of a seven book series; it is halfway through Feast, and halfway through the whole series. It is a moment of calm. It comes after Brienne's fight with Shagwell and friends, Tarly's hanging of outlaws, and before Saltpans, the row of hanged outlaws, and Brienne's terrible encounter with Rorge and Biter. It comes as they walk through a peaceful, open land of water and marshes and simple folk, less than a day from the horrors of war. It is a call to peace and calm amidst the ravages of war. And it gives Brienne's quest a deeper meaning. Her quest to find Sansa or Arya and fulfill her promise to Catelyn can also now be seen as a quest to defend those unable to defend themselves, to be the 'true knight' that men will never see her as because of her sex. Brienne's quest is a quest of the mundane - it could occur in a world without magic or the fantastic.

The mirror is the quest of Bran, which one could call the larger, mystical quest taking place in Westeros. Along with Varys and Brienne, I view the Reed family as among the most selfless and honorable characters in the whole series. Howland risks his only children to aid Bran based merely on his son's dreams. Jojen, ridiculed by some readers and hated sometimes by Bran for his intransigence, is in fact a savior to Bran. Meera too - with her skills, she is a physical savior, while Jojen is a savior through his wisdom. Little Grandfather makes the hard decisions that keeps Bran on his quest which can save Westeros through mystical means, while Brienne seeks to save just two girls through mundane means.

I simplify of course, as there are countless other questers in the series. But I don't think it's too much at all to say this speech is the Heart and Soul of Feast; the reminder of the consequences of violence. If you doubt that this is what this is about, look at the character that one could say begins and ends this book: Catelyn. Her unexpected arrival in the epilogue of Storm shows her as something no longer fully human: she has become vengeance personified, like the Greek furies. In the epilogue and through much of Feast we are happy thinking of her - we take a grim delight in her hanging Freys and other scum wherever she finds them. But at the end, in hanging Pod and Brienne she seems cruelly unfair, whether or not they survive. Brienne has given so much to fulfill her word to Catelyn, and to be treated so seems unjust in the extreme. But Catelyn is neither fair nor unfair, she is simply vengeance - a demander of blood for what has been done to her and her own. We like it when the Freys bleed, Brienne not at all.

Thoros' speech near the end of Feast where he acknowledges how war has warped their band of 'honorable' bandits is a perfect echo of Meribald's speech. The best intentions of Dondarrion, who gave everything to uphold the rule of Robert, has ended through the process of war in a band of cutthroats who are almost as bad as those they hunt. Here, as in King's Landing with the new High Septon, the smallfolk are having their revenge, but with Martin, all violence brings an enormous price.

And with these ruminations ended, I, like so many others, can't wait for Dance and am thrilled beyond measure to read that GRR finished another chapter today. For Feast is the pause and the reflection at the center of the series, and with Dance comes the plot roaring onwards downhill with full force, I suspect.

Edited by maxlongstreet, 05 January 2010 - 08:21 PM.


#2 kuroishi

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:15 PM

This is a very fine post, and I thank you for it !

This should be mandatory reading to anyone complaining that the series has lost its focus with AFFC. Like you and most people I think, I wasn't very impressed on my first reading, as I really wanted the plot to get forward, some people to die and other people to get revenge, battles to happen... But a re-read really makes it appear for the good book it is.

ASoIaF's strenghts are often said to be its characterisation, plot, dialogues, whatever. But I also really do like the themes in it.

#3 Roose Bolton's Pet Leech

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 08:20 PM

View Postmaxlongstreet, on 05 January 2010 - 07:58 PM, said:

Viewed through this lens, Varys can be viewed as the heroic ideal of ASOIAF. The Whisperer does not appear in Feast, but his ethos is fully echoed in Meribald's speech. Varys has no personal ambition; he has no lusts; he cares not whether he is liked or hated. Like Meribald, he has learned to shed his ego for a larger purpose. He is viewed with contempt and mistrust by those he serves. Once he is asked what his goals are, and he answers with a single word: peace. He strives to prevent what has happened in Feast, and his failure does not make him less heroic. He tries and fails to save Ned Stark's life, not for one man, but because he knows Ned's death means war and death across Westeros. Unlike Littlefinger who schemes for power, Varys schemes for peace. He is common born, mistreated, castrated, and he is one of the few in a position of power in ASOIAF who thinks of the impact "The Game of Thrones" has on the common man.

Varys is not striving for peace. He is (almost certainly) striving for a Targaryen restoration, and is not above engaging in some very dark activities in doing what he does (alluded to by Pycelle, who tells Tyrion that he could tell him stuff about Varys that would make his blood run cold).

Also don't forget that those Little Birds are children with their tongues cut out. Varys cheerfully buys them nonetheless - he is not altruistic by any stretch of the imagination.

#4 Merrett Frey's Sponsor

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 10:57 PM

I am still entirely unsure of what to make of Varys, so I can not agree with the OP there, although I like the way the point is argued.

Beyond that, I really like this

View Postmaxlongstreet, on 05 January 2010 - 07:58 PM, said:


Coming back to Meribald's speech, it's worth noting where it occurs in both place and time. It comes halfway through the fourth book of a seven book series; it is halfway through Feast, and halfway through the whole series. It is a moment of calm. It comes after Brienne's fight with Shagwell and friends, Tarly's hanging of outlaws, and before Saltpans, the row of hanged outlaws, and Brienne's terrible encounter with Rorge and Biter. It comes as they walk through a peaceful, open land of water and marshes and simple folk, less than a day from the horrors of war. It is a call to peace and calm amidst the ravages of war. And it gives Brienne's quest a deeper meaning. Her quest to find Sansa or Arya and fulfill her promise to Catelyn can also now be seen as a quest to defend those unable to defend themselves, to be the 'true knight' that men will never see her as because of her sex. Brienne's quest is a quest of the mundane - it could occur in a world without magic or the fantastic.


and this

Quote

Thoros' speech near the end of Feast where he acknowledges how war has warped their band of 'honorable' bandits is a perfect echo of Meribald's speech. The best intentions of Dondarrion, who gave everything to uphold the rule of Robert, has ended through the process of war in a band of cutthroats who are almost as bad as those they hunt. Here, as in King's Landing with the new High Septon, the smallfolk are having their revenge, but with Martin, all violence brings an enormous price.

And agree to a certain extent with this

Quote

The mirror is the quest of Bran, which one could call the larger, mystical quest taking place in Westeros. Along with Varys and Brienne, I view the Reed family as among the most selfless and honorable characters in the whole series. Howland risks his only children to aid Bran based merely on his son's dreams. Jojen, ridiculed by some readers and hated sometimes by Bran for his intransigence, is in fact a savior to Bran. Meera too - with her skills, she is a physical savior, while Jojen is a savior through his wisdom. Little Grandfather makes the hard decisions that keeps Bran on his quest which can save Westeros through mystical means, while Brienne seeks to save just two girls through mundane means.

I'm out of positive rating things today, but thanks for a great post.

And I loved hearing about the Tyrion chapter today as well.

#5 Seanathin

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 11:34 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP, well maybe not about Varys, but that Fest is more about themes and the calm before the storm. It is the silence before another gathering storm.

Fest's real problem is that it is a hard book to have to wait five years with because it begs to move forward like the three before it and like the three after it probably will. It's more a book to study in an English class then to read for entertainment. And I fully expect it to hold up well when everything is written.

The theme that everything has a consequence and that people must live with them forever is one of the major messages in ASoIaF, and to ignore that lessens the whole endeavor, and Fest is mostly about that, as the book is full of showing us how good intentioned actions lead to very bad things. UnCat, the kingsmoot, arming the faith, making Jon high commander the Red Wedding.

#6 All-for-Joffrey

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Posted 05 January 2010 - 11:43 PM

View PostRoose Bolton, on 05 January 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

Varys is not striving for peace. He is (almost certainly) striving for a Targaryen restoration, and is not above engaging in some very dark activities in doing what he does (alluded to by Pycelle, who tells Tyrion that he could tell him stuff about Varys that would make his blood run cold).

Also don't forget that those Little Birds are children with their tongues cut out. Varys cheerfully buys them nonetheless - he is not altruistic by any stretch of the imagination.

IIRC, when Arya overhears him talking to Magister Illyrio in the Red Keep Dungeons, I remember Illyrio telling Varys that they need more time before war breaks out (the idea being that Dany can come to Westeros as a savior from the horrors of a civil war while making Westeros very easy to conquer with a fresh army but Dany's obviously not ready for that yet -- developmentally or army-wise), the implication, of course, being that Varys would eventually be scheming for a civil war when it came time for Dany's invasion but for the time being he wants to keep the peace (unlike Littlefinger). However, I do think that he's not really a Targ royalist but rather he has inside information about the Others' invasion and he somehow knows/believes that Dany is Azhor Ahai reborn and her dragons are lightbringer (or some variation thereof, or maybe it's Jon but she's essential, idk, some stuff concerning prophecy) and she's necessary to saving Westeros. This means that Varys is acting in the interest of the greater good albeit not scrupulously (then again, a central theme of the series is that you generally can't act in the interest of the greater good and be scrupulous), so the OP's point about Varys may still be somewhat valid.

Nonetheless, it was a very good post! Thanks for that!

#7 Mixta

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:53 AM

@maxlongstreet

Excellent Post. Two Thumbs Up. Although the Varys point is speculation, I would like to say this is the best analysis of AFFC that I have seen yet. Agree wholeheartedly.

#8 Ran

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 03:56 AM

I'll echo the others about being dubious that Varys is aiming for peace -- I think that's buying into the face he presented to Ned Stark, but it's clear he was manipulating Ned just as everyone else was. He told him what he wanted him to hear.

But the rest, that's very good. Good post. :)

#9 Patrick Mallister

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:29 AM

View PostAll-for-Joffrey, on 05 January 2010 - 11:43 PM, said:

However, I do think that he's not really a Targ royalist but rather he has inside information about the Others' invasion and he somehow knows/believes that Dany is Azhor Ahai reborn and her dragons are lightbringer (or some variation thereof, or maybe it's Jon but she's essential, idk, some stuff concerning prophecy) and she's necessary to saving Westeros. This means that Varys is acting in the interest of the greater good albeit not scrupulously (then again, a central theme of the series is that you generally can't act in the interest of the greater good and be scrupulous), so the OP's point about Varys may still be somewhat valid.


I disagree about Varys's motives here. I see him as loyal to Westeros and to the Targaryens. Whether he knows about the Others or not, which I tend to agree that he knows that something is going on and that the Targs are important to stopping it. I think his loyalty is clearly shown during the sack of KL when he urges Aerys to not open the gates for Tywin. I'm not sure that he knows how bad the North is, that Dany may be the one to stop them, or even about the prophecies. He may have suspicions regarding the supernatural popping up, but in my opinion, he is far from acting solely in the interest of the greater good. The consequences of his actions may be to the benefit of the greater good, but I'm not convinced that his motives are.

#10 Silverstar

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 08:53 AM

I wonder why Varys would be supporting the Targaryens, and allying with Illyrio, who gave Dany her dragon eggs, considering he has such a hatred for magic, when it's said that the return of dragons is what would bring back magic to the world?

#11 Patrick Mallister

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 09:04 AM

View PostSilverstar, on 06 January 2010 - 08:53 AM, said:

I wonder why Varys would be supporting the Targaryens, and allying with Illyrio, who gave Dany her dragon eggs, considering he has such a hatred for magic, when it's said that the return of dragons is what would bring back magic to the world?

In Qarth, or one of the slaver cities, I forget which, Dany and co. see a street magician doing things that should be impossible ( climbing a rope ladder not attached to anything IIRC, not sure though) and someone comments that only a year ago that wouldn't happen while commenting on the dragons. Also the pyromancers in KL comment to Tyrion that the Wildfire is being made way easier.

I'm sure someone with a better memory than me will chime in with the exact examples.

Edited by wompat, 06 January 2010 - 09:05 AM.


#12 maxlongstreet

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 11:39 AM

I'll admit that my description of Varys as full-fledged hero was in part to be provocative - the truth is that none of us truly know exactly who or what Varys is, because he hides his motives extremely well.

One reason I wanted to provoke a reaction with Varys is that I think he gets a bad rap from readers who take the many criticisms and suspicions of him at face value, which is probably a mistake. Apart from Pycelle's insinuations, there isn't really much dirt on him, other than that people just don't like him. And Pycelle isn't exactly reliable - when he bad-mouthed Varys, he was in a position where he would tell any lie to save his own skin. As to whether Varys is plotting to bring back the Targaryens, it seems reasonable to me. This does not, however, make him evil - it could certainly be argued that this is what is necessary to restore peace to the realm.

Part of my point about Varys which I didn't make clearly is that he isn't honorable in the way Ned Stark was honorable. He isn't about fighting for the personal honor of one person. His goals seem larger. He doesn't initiate helping Tyrion when he is unjustly accused of Joff's murder because it won't serve any larger purpose to do so. I wished to distinguish between the morality of the nobility in ASOIAF, which involves matters of personal honor, and the morality of the commonfolk, which involves the greater good.

On another topic, I agree wholeheartedly with whoever said that Feast is about consequences. The consequences of violence and selfishness are the lesson to be learned in this book, and nowhere is this in greater evidence than in the other main thrust of the book: the dichotomy of Jaime and Cersei. We have two characters that begin the book alike: rash, bold, selfish and immoral. They care only for their own wants, not any greater good or higher purpose.

Obviously no action of violence has greater consequences that Jaime throwing Bran from the tower, the selfish act which eventually sets all Westeros on the road to war. In Feast, the consequences of their actions are everywhere. Jaime sees these consequences and starts to develop some wisdom. Cersei learns nothing, or more accurately put, she learns the wrong lessons: she learns to hate and fear even more than she did in the past. Joffrey's attempted killing of the crippled Bran is almost an important event as Jaime's shove, but Cersei's discovery of this fact doesn't lead her to realize what a monster Joffrey was (Jaime obviously figures this out). In fact, she just ends up idolizing Joffrey even more after his death for his cruelty and strength, wishing Tommen had Joff's strength of will to resist Margaery.

While Cersei digs her own grave, Jaime learns many lessons - through Brienne, his regret for what he did to Bran, for coming to appreciate the Kingsguard, and seeing through Cersei what he was.

Of course, Jaime only grows in this way because he has lost his hand. The thing he misses most can be seen as the root of his evil - his skill with blade leads him to act with wreckless cruelty and selfishness. His 'lessons' with Payne can be seen as a form of physical pennance for the violence he inflicted so casually upon others. Characters such as Jaime or Donal seem to learn hard life lessons only through the loss of limbs or digits - look for Theon to be the next one in Dance.

Jaime's coldhearted blackmail to force the surrender of Riverrun appears differently in the context of the book, the consequences of violence on ordinary people. Looking from the morality of the nobility, we as readers hate that Jaime forces the surrender of Riverrun and the defeat of the Blackfish without a fight. Looking from the point of view of the smallfolk and the consequences of violence, Jaime's actions can be seen as saving thousands of lives of soldiers on both sides, which would have been thrown away in the violent assault on Riverrun's walls which he prevented. The ambivalence of our feelings about Jaime's actions here are reflective of Martin's genius - we can't help but see all the consequences, good and bad, of Jaime's actions here. Jaime has grown, but he's still on "the wrong side", in our view. Martin never makes it too easy for us to love or condemn a character.

Unless perhaps that character is Cersei - she, of course, learns nothing - the irony is that what she sees as her greatest triumph, allowing the sparrows to arms in return for the forgiveness of the crown's debt and the Septon's blessing of Tommen, leads directly to her downfall. It also gives us satisfaction to know that her downfall is also directly related to her failure to learn the lesson of Feast and care for the consequences of violence upon the suffering of the smallfolk.

#13 dolorouseddwasright

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:14 PM

Must....give.....rep......

Two really great posts here. Thank you maxiongstreet.

#14 McCloskey

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 12:22 PM

View PostRoose Bolton, on 05 January 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

Also don't forget that those Little Birds are children with their tongues cut out.


I don't remember where it says the "Little Birds" have thier toungues cut out? How then to they "sing" in Varys' ear?

#15 Lord Varys

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:52 PM

On Feast:

That's exactly what Feast is about. And there are plenty of indications elsewhere. The Readers view on war and history for example, and Asha's vision for the future of the Ironborn compared to Victarion's or Euron's. There are those among the nobility who realize the consequences of war. Doran Martell ist the most prominent one. He actually cares about his people to the extent that he is not willing to sacrifice lives if he is not certain to achieve his goal.

The 'Crows' in Feast are the people who try to use the aftermath of the War of the Five Kings for their own interest. That would be first and foremost Taena Marryweather (if she worked completely on her own, of course), the other cronies in Cersei's council, especially Waters, who simply used Cersei to get a fleet of his own.
The Tyrells as a House fit in that, too, as they used the whole war to aggrandize themselves (but of course even Mace would be a better King than Cersei).
And the uprising of the sparrows is the most prominent symptom. The only force in Westeros for now who cares about the small folk are the lowborn Septons and Septas who were victims of the war, too.

On Varys:

Well, the whole 'serving the Realm' or 'I was the best friend of Robert Baratheon during the last 15 years' is crap, at least in the sense Varys intended Ned to understand him (as potential ally in his quest to uncover Jon Arryn's murderer and to protect Robert. Varys cannot not honestly be completely loyal to Robert and plotting with Illyrio to stage a Dothraki invasion of Westeros to put Viserys Targaryen on the Iron Throne.
One can assume that Varys has lied either to Illyrio or Ned. And as his later behavior intends that he is protecting and assisting Daenerys rather than opposing her (by manipulating Cersei into firing Barristan and silently securing his journey to Illyrio, and disinforming rather than informing the Small Council about the events in the East).
Of course, Varys uses inhuman means. He most likely had people killed, he uses tongueless children who can write and read to get information, but his motivation might still be the most altruistic of all players in Westeros.

If he believes in/knows about the Others (Varys silently supported the Nightswatch and tried to convince Tywin, together with Tyrion, of sending it men after the Battle on the Blackwater) and if he believes in the Azor Ahai prophecy then he knows that the savior is going to be someone with Targaryen blood. And Azor Ahai most likely can better fulfil the prophecy if he is in charge of Westeros.
I doubt that Varys and Illyrio believed Dany being Azor Ahai (although the whole Dragon egg thing is suspicious).

Edited by Lord Varys, 06 January 2010 - 03:15 PM.


#16 Chalky

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Posted 06 January 2010 - 02:06 PM

View PostMcCloskey, on 06 January 2010 - 12:22 PM, said:

I don't remember where it says the "Little Birds" have thier toungues cut out? How then to they "sing" in Varys' ear?
They'd sing because they "learn their letters". I believe Varys says this to Illyrio when complaining about replacing the "little birds" in Arya's chapter

#17 Lady Blackfish

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Posted 13 January 2010 - 06:15 PM

View PostRan, on 06 January 2010 - 03:56 AM, said:

I think that's buying into the face he presented to Ned Stark, but it's clear he was manipulating Ned just as everyone else was.

I definitely think we're supposed to doubt if Varys truly wants peace as he says. It seems he has had some embittering experiences, and it's up in the air whether or not that makes him want to right the wrongs or spread the misery. But if it's an act, I don't think it started with Ned, Ned's dead and he has no need to continue with that any more if that was the root.

maxlongstreet - great great post on Feast, it alone makes me glad that this forum still has the rep system. You've said everything I've always wanted to.

#18 Red Sun

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 03:23 AM

Great post about the speech.

I wouldn't agree that Varys is as good a person as Septon Meribald, but he is a fascinating character, and he could indeed be seen as a contrast to the Septon, because he also offers a key scene in A Clash of Kings when he asks Tyrion "what makes men follow other men".

#19 Balerion the Cat

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 05:45 AM

I totally agree with your analysis of Meribald speech.

Starting from the title, the book is all written to show the "other side" of the war: suffering commoners, broken men, the worst side of lordlings.
I never understood people thinking that Brienne POVs were boring. I always thought they are the intriguing core of the book: I'm not speaking of the quest, which is almost pretestuous, I'm speaking of the "environment", which finally comes to life. Meribald is the guide bringing us to see what's really this "environment". He could have been named "Virgil".

I also agree that it's not a coincidence that it comes in the exact half of the Song. It's the ultimate consequence of the first books (civil war, game of thrones...) and it's a necessary premise to the next. They will start from THIS situation, and this situation will strongly affect the possible choices.

#20 Lummel

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 09:04 AM

View PostBalerion the Cat, on 14 January 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

I also agree that it's not a coincidence that it comes in the exact half of the Song. It's the ultimate consequence of the first books (civil war, game of thrones...) and it's a necessary premise to the next. They will start from THIS situation, and this situation will strongly affect the possible choices.

Definately. The disillusionment of Thoros and the decent of the Brotherhood without Banners from fighting for something to seeking revenge balances out against the earlier idealism of the knights of summer. Life is not a song.

Devastation, the legacy of violence, disillusionment will be the building blocks for the completion of the series.

Meribald's life and the back story of the Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle represent the possiblity of healing and hopefully a note of optimistism in the face of the brutalities we observe.

Edited by Lummel, 14 January 2010 - 09:07 AM.





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