138 replies to this topic

[Grack21]

I think the odds of my trying out whatever new series they come out with depends on the authors.

[SkynJay]

Ok.  If Zahn, Stover, and Stackpole write the series, I will revise my policy.

[Grack21]

Hah. I'd have a meltdown. They need to dumb Denning and Goldie Golden wtfever her name is.

[Derfel Cadarn]

As long as they keep traviss away.

"im jaina solo, veteran of the 5-year vong war, i spent 5 years fighting pirates and fought in the killek war.  I flew in rogue squadron and led my own squadron, being one of the best pilots in the galaxy...  Hey, mando kid, how does this helmet mike work?  Hey old mando dude, can you repeatedly kick my ass, its not as if i know anything about melee fighting or can use the Force to pre-cog your moves before you make them."

[Grack21]

Travis is awesome. Eat shit.

[Darth Vader's Bastard]

Her books were certainly enjoyable, but the notion that a Mandalorian could easily wipe the floor with a Jedi, any Jedi, is absolutely ludicrous.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Grack21, on 17 April 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Travis is awesome. Eat shit.

She was awful.  Her clonetrooper books may have been ok (the earliest ones seem well-regarded) but her anti-Jedi bias was painful in the Legacy series, especially when writing from Jedi POV.  And her arbitary killing of Mara JAde without bothering to consult with the creator (Zahn) was distasteful.  Her depiction of Jaina was a travesty. Apparently Han solo makes jokes about Jango fett's head getting cut off... would he even know about it?  And why has every character suddenly become obsessed with Boba Fett and the Mandalorians?  Someone even thinks "What would Boba Fett do?"  Luke even 'thinks' in Mando'ade or whatever the language is called.   Someone asks Luke what the difference is between Sith and Jedi and he mumbles some half-arsed answer.  "Um, well Jedi are good, and um, Sith are ... bad?  I guess...?  Someone help me out here?  Guys, why are we good again?  Guys?!?"    And her constant retconning of Boba Fett's history to try and make him the hero was annoying.

Her writing was poor, too.  At one point Jacen Solo never thinks about his sister.  Then a few paragraphs later he's not able to stop thinking about her.  Or the other way round.

Edited by Derfel Cadarn, 17 April 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Grack21]

Arbitrary killing of Mara Jade? Wow, you REALLY do not know how Star Wars novels are plotted. I don't even know ehre to BEGIN with the retcon statement.....do you know what Star Wars is?

[Mack Kilimaro]

Reading this thread has made me feel a burst of nostalgia. Yet, the recent posts have left me glad that I stopped reading Star Wars books at the conclusion of the New Jedi Order.

At the time, I felt like if I kept reading it was only going to ruin good memories. I think my interest in literature has evolved beyond getting enjoyment out of tie-in stuff. It seems like the things that I would dislike have been more at the forefront. Particularly trying to graft on prequel-era happenings into the post-ROTJ EU.

For someone like me who'd been reading since Heir to the Empire in the early 90s, the EU was kind of a refuge from the Jar-Jar Binks/terrible Anakin dialogue and all that stuff. I can't imagine how people who felt the same have kept reading. On the other hand, perhaps I am in the minority and that's what people are looking for.

[Grack21]

Eh, the few prequel era books I've read are much much much better then the actual movies.

What gets me is that fucking cartoon.

[Lord of the Night]

Grack21, on 17 April 2012 - 05:21 PM, said:

Arbitrary killing of Mara Jade? Wow, you REALLY do not know how Star Wars novels are plotted. I don't even know ehre to BEGIN with the retcon statement.....do you know what Star Wars is?

Indeed. Mara Jade's death was a discussion that the ENTIRE Legacy of the Force team discussed and debated. Jacen needed to kill somebody well established and important, Mara just got the short straw on that.

Grack21, on 18 April 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

What gets me is that fucking cartoon.

"Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter." (I mean it.)


I agree with Traviss's Star Wars ideals for the most part, and she is my favourite Star Wars writer. As for the Mandalorians in Legacy, each of the authors is guilty of bringing in their personal favourite characters. Allston had Wedge Antillies and Rogue Squadron, Denning had Alema Rar and Traviss had Boba Fett. Alema Rar could have stayed dead in the Swarm War and we wouldn't have been bothered. Antillies could have stayed in retirement and not gotten involved in the whole war. And Boba Fett didn't need to get involved in Jaina Solo's inability to kill a madman. But they did, because the authors wanted to use them. I admit that Traviss brought in the Mandalorians because she's a fan, but Denning brought in Alema for the same reason and Allston brought in Antillies for the same reason.

That said I do like the Mandalorian appearance in Legacy and agree with their training of Jaina. It wasn't so much unarmed combat they were teaching her, it was the mentality she would need to kill her brother. Its not an easy thing to do, though she should have been able, and because she couldn't it fell to Fett and Goran Beviin to train her to fight with no restraint, because that is the kind of mindset she'd need for the battle with Caedus.

I do admit that Boba Fett is no hero, but rather a dark anti-hero who cares about himself and the people important to him rather than the whole galaxy like the hero Luke Skywalker. I also agree with Fett's, and this once Daala's, anti-jedi stance and the belief that force-users need to be wiped out if the Star Wars universe is to ever know peace. Bar the Yuuzhan Vong War, can anyone name a war that wasn't caused by the Jedi or Sith or just one renegade member of either order? Dating backwards..

Hundred-Year-Darkness - Caused by Jedi-turned-Dark Jedi.
Great Hyperspace War - Caused by Sith and Force-Users.
Great Sith War - Caused by Jedi-turned Sith.
Mandalorian Wars - Started by Mandalorians, but influenced by Sith.
Jedi Civil War - Caused by Revan and Jedi.
Dark Wars - Caused by Sith and Jedi Exile.
Great Galactic War - Caused by Sith.
Cold War - Caused by Sith and Jedi.
New Sith Wars - Caused by Sith and Jedi.
Clone Wars - Caused by Sith and Dark Jedi.
Galactic Civil War - Caused by Sith.
Swarm War - Caused by Renegade Jedi.
Second Galactic Civil War - Caused by Jedi-turned-Sith.
Lost Tribe War - Caused by Jedi-turned-Sith and Sith.

If that isn't enough to warrant the destruction of the Sith and Jedi then I don't know what is. Really the Vong War is the only war that the Jedi and Sith are not responsible for causing or influencing.


LotN

[Memory Lane]

Grack21 said:

What gets me is that fucking cartoon.

God, that was awesome. A huge chunk of fanboy Mandalorian wankery, wiped out!  I heard Traviss really pitched a fit when that happened.

If only we could get more over-rides of the EU, since so much of it is shit. Perhaps we could get the entire Legacy of the Force series ret-conned into a fever dream that Jacen Solo has while being tortured on Vergere's Pain Thing. Or we could drop Dark Empire and the whole idea of Palpatine surviving after Endor (which really cheapened Anakin's sacrifice).

Lord of the Night said:

I agree with Traviss's Star Wars ideals for the most part, and she is my favourite Star Wars writer. As for the Mandalorians in Legacy, each of the authors is guilty of bringing in their personal favourite characters. Allston had Wedge Antillies and Rogue Squadron, Denning had Alema Rar and Traviss had Boba Fett. Alema Rar could have stayed dead in the Swarm War and we wouldn't have been bothered. Antillies could have stayed in retirement and not gotten involved in the whole war. And Boba Fett didn't need to get involved in Jaina Solo's inability to kill a madman. But they did, because the authors wanted to use them. I admit that Traviss brought in the Mandalorians because she's a fan, but Denning brought in Alema for the same reason and Allston brought in Antillies for the same reason.

They all bring in their pet characters, but Allston and Denning didn't warp the entire story to make the Wankalorians look awesome and the Jedi suck. Even Zahn was never that bad with Thrawn, Mara Jade, or the Chiss.

Of course, none of this would be an issue if LucasBooks didn't really care about continuity, or rely so heavily on the Movie Characters as a crutch for attracting readers. Honestly, I wish they would just re-set the whole thing, or do separate continuities. This one is so far along that we've got the grand-children of the Movie Characters growing up.

Lord of the Night said:

That said I do like the Mandalorian appearance in Legacy and agree with their training of Jaina. It wasn't so much unarmed combat they were teaching her, it was the mentality she would need to kill her brother. Its not an easy thing to do, though she should have been able, and because she couldn't it fell to Fett and Goran Beviin to train her to fight with no restraint, because that is the kind of mindset she'd need for the battle with Caedus

Jaina nearly fell to the dark side in the New Jedi Order arc, after Anakin was killed. I don't think she needs lessons in fighting without restraint.

That said, it's nice that Fett was able to actually do something useful plot-wise. I remember reading Bloodlines and wondering why the fuck the novel was constantly side-tracking to Fett away from the main story (although that was minor compared to the problem of every single character's inner monologue sounding exactly the same).

Lord of the Night said:

If that isn't enough to warrant the destruction of the Sith and Jedi then I don't know what is. Really the Vong War is the only war that the Jedi and Sith are not responsible for causing or influencing.

Without the Jedi (or Sith), the galactic-level government eventually disintegrates. The Jedi were the main reason that the Old Republic lasted as long as it did, and the Empire collapsed into civil wars as soon as Palpatine and his successor Vader died. The New Republic wasn't based on Jedi support (at first), and it was continuously in crisis, collapsing in mere decades in war.

Edited by Lane Pryce, 19 April 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[Grack21]

Did you just complain about the EU then use the EU to defend the Jedi?

[Memory Lane]

If you want to stick strictly to the films, then it's obvious that the Jedi play a major role in stabilizing the Republic (Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, for example, were key players in resolving the crisis on Naboo). At the same time, Palpatine and Vader were the keystone of the Empire  - once both died, the Imperial effort at Endor disintegrated into chaos, and the Empire began to collapse (there's the shot of people on Coruscant toppling a giant statue of Palpatine in celebration).

[Grack21]

Actually, that shot is no longer cannon

[Lord of the Night]

Lane Pryce, on 19 April 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

If you want to stick strictly to the films, then it's obvious that the Jedi play a major role in stabilizing the Republic (Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, for example, were key players in resolving the crisis on Naboo). At the same time, Palpatine and Vader were the keystone of the Empire  - once both died, the Imperial effort at Endor disintegrated into chaos, and the Empire began to collapse (there's the shot of people on Coruscant toppling a giant statue of Palpatine in celebration).

Yes they stabilised the crisis on Naboo... which was started by a Sith Lord, yet another war caused by force-users. And yes the Empire broke apart after Vader and Palpatine died, but who says that's a bad thing.

Force-users are responsible for most of the wars and problems in the Star Wars universe. If only the Jedi existed and only them then they'd be worth keeping, but as long as Jedi exist the Sith will exist because the Jedi are too weak to exterminate them and because the most powerful Sith usually come from the Jedi's ranks like Revan, Dooku or Darth Krayt. If it meant the end of the Sith and other dark force-users, the destruction of the Jedi is a small price to pay.


LotN

[Derfel Cadarn]

Lane Pryce, on 19 April 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

They all bring in their pet characters, but Allston and Denning didn't warp the entire story to make the Wankalorians look awesome and the Jedi suck. Even Zahn was never that bad with Thrawn, Mara Jade, or the Chiss.

Jaina nearly fell to the dark side in the New Jedi Order arc, after Anakin was killed. I don't think she needs lessons in fighting without restraint.


Without the Jedi (or Sith), the galactic-level government eventually disintegrates. The Jedi were the main reason that the Old Republic lasted as long as it did, and the Empire collapsed into civil wars as soon as Palpatine and his successor Vader died. The New Republic wasn't based on Jedi support (at first), and it was continuously in crisis, collapsing in mere decades in war.

Exactly.  Revelations was mainly about Jaina preparing to fight her brother - and Traviss really screwed up her whole character.  She was a combat veteran of the biggest galactic war that lasted 5 years.  She almost went to the dark side after Anakin;s death and willingly sacrificed some of her own pilots.  What the hell did she need to learn from Fett other than how to get taken out by a blind guy?  If she needed to learn tracking skills then fair enough, but she didn't.  None of what she learned even really came into play in the final confrontation.

The authors may have collaborated but from what I gather Traviss didn't work well in the group.  She's stated that it was her idea to kill Mara Jade, and that she wanted to write it.  She didn't have the courtesy to consult with the character's creator.  Stackpole at least let Zahn give guidance on certain bits of I, Jedi that had Mara Jade and stuff that led into the Vision of the Future duology.  And the death scene was pretty poorly written (though the scene where Luke finds out was quite good).  Jacen's murder of his former apprentice Nalani (sp) in Betrayal had more impact.

And how was killing his uncle's wife a sacrifice?  He never seemed that close to her.  Imho the sacrifice should have been Tahiri, the girlfriend of Jacen's dead brother.  Would have made more sense than her suddenly breaking down over Anakin and going dark side.

Back to the collaboration, the authors seemed to be fighting with Traviss.  She has Fel's granddaughter get married only for the husband to get killed in the next book and the granddaughter crippled.

What I also disliked were the Mando uber-fighters Traviss came up with - faster than x-wings and practically invulnerable!  *eye roll*

Boba Fett:  He's like Bronn, a ruthless amoral mercenary who answers to the highest bidder albeit with his own code of owner.  Retcons are annoying, even when necessary, but trying to make him heroic is just fanwankery.  I dislike how Wedge has been slightly retconned as being a better pilot in A New Hope than the film suggests, but it's not like they tried to do a 180 degree on the character.

Traviss has called the Jedi baby stealing nazi's who had Order 66 coming to them, showing she is too biased against them to be trusted to write them, as evidenced by her horrific portrayal of them.  There's nothing to suggest they forcibly took force sensitive children; Qui-Gon didn't force Anakin to go with him.  Re the clonetroopers, the Jedi led them from the front, it's not like they were armchair generals sending them off without sharing the risk.

I'll be getting the next book, as it's an X-Wing book with the Wraiths in it.  After that I'll see how it goes, it will depend on the authors and how the storyline progresses.

[Darth Arya]

Lord of the Night, on 19 April 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Yes they stabilised the crisis on Naboo... which was started by a Sith Lord, yet another war caused by force-users. And yes the Empire broke apart after Vader and Palpatine died, but who says that's a bad thing.

It would be a bad thing for The Sith Order and anyone high up in Imperial command .

[Grack21]

Derfel Cadarn, on 19 April 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

Exactly.  Revelations was mainly about Jaina preparing to fight her brother - and Traviss really screwed up her whole character.  She was a combat veteran of the biggest galactic war that lasted 5 years.  She almost went to the dark side after Anakin;s death and willingly sacrificed some of her own pilots.  What the hell did she need to learn from Fett other than how to get taken out by a blind guy?  If she needed to learn tracking skills then fair enough, but she didn't.  None of what she learned even really came into play in the final confrontation.

The authors may have collaborated but from what I gather Traviss didn't work well in the group.  She's stated that it was her idea to kill Mara Jade, and that she wanted to write it.  She didn't have the courtesy to consult with the character's creator.  Stackpole at least let Zahn give guidance on certain bits of I, Jedi that had Mara Jade and stuff that led into the Vision of the Future duology.  And the death scene was pretty poorly written (though the scene where Luke finds out was quite good).  Jacen's murder of his former apprentice Nalani (sp) in Betrayal had more impact.

And how was killing his uncle's wife a sacrifice?  He never seemed that close to her.  Imho the sacrifice should have been Tahiri, the girlfriend of Jacen's dead brother.  Would have made more sense than her suddenly breaking down over Anakin and going dark side.

Back to the collaboration, the authors seemed to be fighting with Traviss.  She has Fel's granddaughter get married only for the husband to get killed in the next book and the granddaughter crippled.

What I also disliked were the Mando uber-fighters Traviss came up with - faster than x-wings and practically invulnerable!  *eye roll*

Boba Fett:  He's like Bronn, a ruthless amoral mercenary who answers to the highest bidder albeit with his own code of owner.  Retcons are annoying, even when necessary, but trying to make him heroic is just fanwankery.  I dislike how Wedge has been slightly retconned as being a better pilot in A New Hope than the film suggests, but it's not like they tried to do a 180 degree on the character.

Traviss has called the Jedi baby stealing nazi's who had Order 66 coming to them, showing she is too biased against them to be trusted to write them, as evidenced by her horrific portrayal of them.  There's nothing to suggest they forcibly took force sensitive children; Qui-Gon didn't force Anakin to go with him.  Re the clonetroopers, the Jedi led them from the front, it's not like they were armchair generals sending them off without sharing the risk.

I'll be getting the next book, as it's an X-Wing book with the Wraiths in it.  After that I'll see how it goes, it will depend on the authors and how the storyline progresses.

Ha ha wow. Did Travis kill your mom or something?
Do you have any sources for any of this?

Edit: And people wonder why Traviss doesn't like Star Wars fans!

Edited by Grack21, 19 April 2012 - 08:26 PM.