400 replies to this topic

[Direwolf Lager]

wish HBO shows were still this complex. amazing series

[Darth Arya]

TrackerNeil, on 05 June 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

I felt as though The Sopranos was not a story but a situation. I watched the first two seasons on DVD and it was becoming clear to me that nothing much was changing from episode to episode.

I did find it to be quite comical in parts but I could never take it seriously, one thing I always hated and thankfully I watched the series on DVD was the Therapist visits, I used to forward through every one.

Saying The Sopranos is a realistic portrayal of how the NJ Mafia operate would be like saying Nip/Tuck was a realistic portrayal of Plastic Surgeons, whereas The Wire I did feel was done to be much more true to life.

Edited by Katherine Of House Sith, 05 June 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[TheEvilKing]

The Wire: The Musical

Seriously hilarious - without spoiling, it actually has some of the cast of The Wire in it.

[Shryke]

Mack Kilimaro, on 05 June 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Gus gets demoted at the end, and Alma gets exiled to Siberia/Carroll County because she spoke up for him. That is a cost, although I agree with the general idea that the newspaper plot lacks the nuance we came to see from the other things explored by The Wire.

The newspaper plotline felt like it needed more time to be fleshed out or something. Or like it needed to start earlier. Start peppering those reporters in during the political/police storylines of 4 or something.

But I felt like it was a really important story for the show to tell. To basically hammer home why all this shit you are mired in watching the show isn't big news or isn't solved: because no one in the media is paying any fucking attention. Even Gus seems to care more about catching Templeton then anything.

[Castel]

Katherine Of House Sith, on 05 June 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

I never really understand how some people say The Sopranos is a better series, it's more a comical caricature at times, yes I enjoyed it but I think the Wire makes superior watching, Deadwood too actually.

Sopranos was fun for a while, but honestly after a while the thing that I liked about it started getting to me, everyone is a despicable fucking hypocrite and arsehole in at least one way. Of course they need to be to work where they do, but I had to just...stop.

The Wire is much better. There are so many little touches that made that show feel like something that could happen in real life. Watching that show I can see why the drug problem doesn't get fixed.

Katherine Of House Sith, on 05 June 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

I did find it to be quite comical in parts but I could never take it seriously, one thing I always hated and thankfully I watched the series on DVD was the Therapist visits, I used to forward through every one.

I liked these scenes or at least I liked the therapist, because she provided an independent viewpoint and told us in no uncertain terms that Tony was a criminal sociopath with no regard for people outside his bubble. Not a fucking "honor among thieves" type, or a family man with a bit of a temper problem. He's a fucking flawed human being. I mean, examples are littered throughout the show yet some people never make that connection, which is baffling.

Otherwise I liked them because a man like Tony just doesn't have people to talk to about some things, and the therapist helps with that.

[Caligula_K2]

Wire the Musical is hilarious. I love it.

I haven't watched all of the Sopranos, but it seems to me that there's no competition between it on the one hand and Deadwood and the Wire on the other. Though of course Deadwood and The Wire are fantastic for very different reasons.

Re: The newspaper plotline, I think somewhere in there is very interesting commentary on the sensationalism of modern media, and how stupid shit like a serial killer takes precedence over writing any real stories. Unfortunately, this got lost in the Scott plotline, and what we mainly end up with is Good Gus and Alma vs. Bad Scott and Senior Editors.

[Mack Kilimaro]

The newspaper is declining like any other part of Baltimore. I think that got lost in the sensationalism of the story in season 5 - does that count as irony? The way things have developed for the Sun since that season aired, with more buyouts, cutting staff, cutting back on real reporting, etc. I think Simon was basically proved to be a prophet. And the story of the Baltimore streets in the real world is still not being told because there is nobody left to even try to write about it.

[Sci-2]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Sopranos was fun for a while, but honestly after a while the thing that I liked about it started getting to me....


I liked these scenes or at least I liked the therapist, because she provided an independent viewpoint and told us in no uncertain terms that Tony was a criminal sociopath with no regard for people outside his bubble. Not a fucking "honor among thieves" type, or a family man with a bit of a temper problem....

Yeah, wasn't that the thing in the end? That Tony uses guilt as a rationalization that he's somehow a good person for trying?

eta: shortened quote AND:

It's not even a contest. Sopranos is Sat. Morning cartoons compared to the Wire.

Edited by sciborg2, 06 June 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Independent George]

Katherine Of House Sith, on 05 June 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

I never really understand how some people say The Sopranos is a better series, it's more a comical caricature at times, yes I enjoyed it but I think the Wire makes superior watching, Deadwood too actually.

Do people actually say this? Do you mean popular audiences, or critics?

The Wire never had the mass audience that The Sopranos got, so it's not surprising that many would hold that opinion. Amongst critics, though, The Wire is often described as the single greatest television program of all time (I agree), and considered by many to be one of the great works of art of all time.

I won't denigrate The Sopranos (which I loved), but The Wire holds a unique status in my mind. I can't compare it to anything, because nothing even remotely resembles it. It's a category in and of itself.

Mack Kilimaro, on 06 June 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

The newspaper is declining like any other part of Baltimore. I think that got lost in the sensationalism of the story in season 5 - does that count as irony? The way things have developed for the Sun since that season aired, with more buyouts, cutting staff, cutting back on real reporting, etc. I think Simon was basically proved to be a prophet. And the story of the Baltimore streets in the real world is still not being told because there is nobody left to even try to write about it.

The whole fake-serial killer angle was so ridiculous and over-the-top that it detracted from everything else that was going on in the story. Introducing the fake quotes actually trivializes the underlying point about how the media intersects the government and the community. Worse, by focusing on the fabulists, it actually lets the media off the hook.

The decline of the metro section and the 'Pulitzer-chasing' should have been about the racial and class differences between the media companies and the communities they were supposedly covering. The white, professional, upper-middle class management  of the paper was gearing its coverage to the interests of white, professional, upper-middle class members of the Pulitzer committee. The same cultural isolation that relegates the death of Omar Little to a minor blurb below the fold is exactly the same cultural isolation we see afflicting the politicians, the police, and the schools.

But instead of exploring this, we have a cartoon about a fake serial killer and a lying reporter. We have the beginnings of this theme (we see him begin faking the quotes because he's uncomfortable getting dirty interviewing the homeless), but it gets tossed by the wayside for a circus far less nuanced or relevant than anything else in the show.

Edited by Independent George, 06 June 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Darth Arya]

Independent George, on 06 June 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

Do people actually say this? Do you mean popular audiences, or critics?

I have heard it said by a few people, but I've heard more say they prefer The Wire. I have the same view as you myself, it's probably one of, if not the best TV series ever made.
In fact all this talk of The Wire is making me want to re watch it.

[Crown]

I'm currently watching The Wire for the first time, currently on season 3 episode 9. Loving it.

[Castel]

Quote

The decline of the metro section and the 'Pulitzer-chasing' should have been about the racial and class differences between the media companies and the communities they were supposedly covering. The white, professional, upper-middle class management of the paper was gearing its coverage to the interests of white, professional, upper-middle class members of the Pulitzer committee. The same cultural isolation that relegates the death of Omar Little to a minor blurb below the fold is exactly the same cultural isolation we see afflicting the politicians, the police, and the schools.

And it's funny because they started with this. And then quickly jumped into the whole Shattered Glass story.

Quote

Yeah, wasn't that the thing in the end? That Tony uses guilt as a rationalization that he's somehow a good person for trying?

Yup, watching him on the couch claiming to not be a bad person because there are worse people out there and that he likes babies... And his wife and awareness of her hypocrisy? All those moments came from the couch.

I knew these things, but it's somehow satisfying to see the writers acknowledge it and not pretend that these are good people like say, True Blood.

[Independent George]

Castel, on 06 June 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

Yup, watching him on the couch claiming to not be a bad person because there are worse people out there and that he likes babies... And his wife and awareness of her hypocrisy? All those moments came from the couch.

I knew these things, but it's somehow satisfying to see the writers acknowledge it and not pretend that these are good people like say, True Blood.

I think my very favorite moment from the Sopranos was when Carmella was referred to a psychiatrist by Dr. Melfi, and in the first session, he very bluntly tells her that until she cuts herself off from Tony, she's just as guilty as he is because is profiting from his criminal activities just as much as he is. The irony is that Dr. Melfi is in exactly the same situation, and he knows it, too. He refuses Carmella's "blood money" and denies further sessions, the very thing Dr. Melfi should have done from the beginning (and finally does in the finale).

I think the biggest arc to the show is the way Tony has gradually and steadily corrupted everyone in his life. Carmella and her father are now crooked real estate developers who use Tony's connections to circumvent building codes. Meadow went from being a bleeding heart activist type, to just another white collar attorney who hypocritically uses the same rhetoric to shield her Dad and the family business from accountability. AJ has followed little Carmine into the porn business.

The series began with a mobster trying to balance the inherent contradiction between his family life and his "family" life. It ends with his family being subsumed by his "family". Conflict resolved.

Edited by Independent George, 06 June 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Shryke]

Independent George, on 06 June 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

The whole fake-serial killer angle was so ridiculous and over-the-top that it detracted from everything else that was going on in the story. Introducing the fake quotes actually trivializes the underlying point about how the media intersects the government and the community. Worse, by focusing on the fabulists, it actually lets the media off the hook.

The decline of the metro section and the 'Pulitzer-chasing' should have been about the racial and class differences between the media companies and the communities they were supposedly covering. The white, professional, upper-middle class management  of the paper was gearing its coverage to the interests of white, professional, upper-middle class members of the Pulitzer committee. The same cultural isolation that relegates the death of Omar Little to a minor blurb below the fold is exactly the same cultural isolation we see afflicting the politicians, the police, and the schools.

But instead of exploring this, we have a cartoon about a fake serial killer and a lying reporter. We have the beginnings of this theme (we see him begin faking the quotes because he's uncomfortable getting dirty interviewing the homeless), but it gets tossed by the wayside for a circus far less nuanced or relevant than anything else in the show.

But that's not exactly how it works though. The media isn't covering this shit because it's uncomfortable with the lower class (although that certainly doesn't help). It doesn't cover it because it's haemorrhaging money and can't keep the resources around to know WTF is going on and is focused on firing people and bringing in more cash and all that shit. They love Templeton because he brings sensationalism and credit to them. It gets them noticed and thus, hopefully, gets them bought.

The class issues you want it to focus on aren't the big issue. When Omar or Prop Joe dies, it's a minor blurb because all the guys who'd know who he was are fired.

[naz]

Independent George, on 06 June 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

I won't denigrate The Sopranos (which I loved), but The Wire holds a unique status in my mind. I can't compare it to anything, because nothing even remotely resembles it. It's a category in and of itself.

I agree. Comparing The Wire and The Sopranos beyond simple personal preferences is fruitless, really. They aren't the same, nor are they trying to be. There hasn't really been anything before or since The Wire that has been trying to tell a TV story in that way, where the payoffs don't come close to appearing until you're well-invested in the characters and their respective milieus.

The Sopranos - while still quality TV and not at all like network crap - was still meant to appeal to audiences in a very different way than The Wire. Both were character-driven, but ultimately the plotlines in The Sopranos were much less significant to the overall arcs and outcomes of the characters than they were in The Wire.

Apples and oranges.

[Crown]

Are you fucking kidding me?! String Bell. Shot to death. Fucking hell. Didn't expect that.

Watching the Wire for the first time.

[IceGal]

Till a month or so after I finished watching the series, I kept seeing  the wire characters everywhere.

When I started watching GoT, my first reaction on seeing Littlefinger was wtf is Carcetti doing dressed like that!

Edited by IceGal, 07 June 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[TrackerNeil]

IceGal, on 07 June 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

When I started watching GoT, my first reaction on seeing Littlefinger was wtf is Carcetti doing dressed like that!

I know! And Aidan Gillen is playing the same character in both series.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Idk if anyone is still watching this thread, but I just found it.

I read a few pages and was surprised how little of this you people get what the "the wire" was about, and also the how it related to "Homicide: life on the Street" (which was rather good show for a network TV)

David Simon was a reporter in B-more, and wrote "Homicide: a year in the life" and "the Corner" both  as NF books. He then sold the rites to Homicide and the made "life on the Street" and he wrote for that that show. He use some of the stories from what he really saw on the streets in B-more.

He then did the mini series "the Corner" and used some of the people he had followed for the story in cameos, and use real stories of what had happened in B-more during the late '80's early '90's.

He use some of the stories he had already use, and some he had but had not written to start "the Wire". A lot of reasons that the show seem real is because it was based on real life.While the show was Fiction, it was base on things based on things he and Burns had seen and heard.

IIRC at the end of the first eps. Mcnulty ask a Det. what happen at a murder seen and he tells them about this guy keep playing craps and would steal the money and run off but he come back a few days later and they keeped letting him play, and he do it again. Somebody got pissed off and killed him. A few minutes later the boy that killed him is being taking away and he ask the boy, if you knew he was going to steal why you let him play, and the kid said something like "this is America you got the right to play".

Simon writing partner Ed Burns had been a B-more Homicide Det. and many of the characters where giving names of real BPD members. Many of those police offiicers had cameo's to real parts in the show.  Ed Burns who played Det Ed Burns was a former Police Comm for Balt. and was charged with the same charges brought again Clay Davis in the show.

I loved this show.

[pitakon]

Was really good as it is being released. Can never get myself to rewatch it gives up after a couple of episodes. Doesn't hold up. Rewatchability rating of zero.