45 replies to this topic

[Ran]

Over at George's LJ, in the course of a comment, I mused that it'd be really interesting if someone put together a narrative chart for the series to date, in the style of Randall Munro's narrative charts for various films (including literary adaptions LotR and Jurassic Park). Werthead chimed in pointing out with the fan-made timelines that exist, and the know how we have on hand, that it's not necessarily that impossible an idea.

I think this would be an awesome bit of geek art, and a puzzle for the sort of people who enjoy that. And of course, we'd love to host it at our gallery, or maybe incorporate it into the wiki somehow (though that requires Creative Commons licensing).

Anyways, tossing that out there for folks to consider.

[Datepalm]

Sigh. Since i'm both re-reading GOT and off on what will likely be a boring trip with considerable spare time, i'll try to put together some kind of sketch. The idea has taken hold and will not let go.

[kuroishi]

Ha ha, I thought about doing something like that when I first saw the xkcd strip, but I haven't had much time on hand since then. This is something that could be done very efficiently by many people though, the thing would be to first follow each character's timeline (which can be done separately), and then join everything (which could be a very tricky part).
Some decisions need to be made first though, what characters and what events should be presented ?

I'd love to help anyway.

[Datepalm]

kuroishi, on 16 February 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

Ha ha, I thought about doing something like that when I first saw the xkcd strip, but I haven't had much time on hand since then. This is something that could be done very efficiently by many people though, the thing would be to first follow each character's timeline (which can be done separately), and then join everything (which could be a very tricky part).
Some decisions need to be made first though, what characters and what events should be presented ?

I'd love to help anyway.

I'm going to try and do GoT, roughly at least, over the next two days while i'm away. I don't think it should be too hard since it has relatively few seperate locations and the PoV's. Jon - always at the wall, Dany - always in the East, Ned and the Girls - Straight forward progress from WF to KL and thats it. Only Tyrion and Cat need to be worked in in a more complicated way with reference to timelines. (The weirdly divergent travel times along the Kingsroad are the issue there, IIRC.)

edit - If I manage that i'll try to add in things like Robb and the Army and Jaime, maybe.

Edited by Datepalm, 16 February 2010 - 02:11 PM.

[Werthead]

Before doing that, it might be an idea to check out the existing timeline that someone - was it Happy Ent? - mapped out a while back. It was very impressive.

Unfortunately, it seems to have vanished from the boards, maybe a victim of the old-thread auto-deletion system. I think there was an offsite copy somewhere though.

[Happy Ent]

I actually started doing that as soon as I saw the xkcd comic. And stopped after a few hours.

I though OmniGraffe Professional was the right tool, but it became unwieldy after a while. (It’s among the best pieces of software I know, and I use it for a lot of stuff.)

So if I find the energy again, I think I’ll try in TikZ instead. That would be easier to edit, and also work as a collaborative editing project. The best way would be to host a TikZ file under GIT. I want to do this, but it’s… a massive undertaking.

The timeline is still available, here is the thread, and it’s Errant Bard who is responsible. My own notes can be partially seen in the Feast for Crows re-read project, but EB’s timeline is better. (Check EB’s thread for my proposed amendments.)

I note that GRRM has challenged people like EB and myself in his blog entry today, and all I can say is: Bring it on! We’re ready when you are. Teleporting ships ohoy!

[kuroishi]

Maybe doing a list of all the characters we want to appear in this could be helpful ? All the regular POVs of course, but what about characters like Sandor Clegane or Gendry who are important and appear in more than one storyline ?

[Datepalm]

Technology schmechmology. I've got the book, EB's timeline, colored pencils and a sharpener with a picture of some kind of cat on it.

edit: Y'know, reading through the timeline, maybe scrap that, fond as I am of my pencils. An XKCD style chart dosen't show us a whole lot we don't know from the timelines. What we need to do is make some kind of animation of character movements on a map, that progresses at a steady rate - then we could see where there are discrepancies like people moving absurdly fast or things like that.

ETA - and anyone that wanted to could independently add another character and see how it affected everything else.

Edited by Datepalm, 16 February 2010 - 03:42 PM.

[kuroishi]

Well, I made a crude list of characters, based on where they are the first time we meet them (except for the King's Court that I put in King's Landing, even if we meet them further North).
The not bolded people are not very important and maybe they shouldn't appear, but it could be funny to show at least some of them.
And the bolded people are : the main POVs, the various kings and queens (there are quite a lot !), some important characters who, at first sight, move quite a lot between various locations and storylines (Gendry, Beric, Gregor, Sandor...) and some fan favorites

This is, of course, merely a basis for discussion, many of the choices are arguable.

A Game of Thrones :

The Wall & Beyond
(Waymar)
(Will)
(Gared)
(Aemon)
(Jeor)
(Benjen)
>Sam

Winterfell
Bran
Cat
Ned
Jon
Arya
Sansa
Robb
Rickon
Theon
(Hodor)
(Ghost)
(Grey Wind)
(Lady)
(Nymeria)
(Summer)
(Shaggydog)
>(Osha)
>(Roose Bolton)
>((Various Northmen/women : Umbers, Mormonts))

King's Landing
Robert
Renly
Tyrion
Jaime
Cersei
Sandor
Joffrey
Tommen
(Myrcella)
Petyr
Varys
(Pycelle)
Barristan
(Thoros)
(Arys Oakheart)
Gendry
>(Loras)
>Beric
>Gregor
>>(Yoren)

On the Road
(Bronn)

Camp
Tywin
(Kevan)
(Shae)
(Pod)

The Twins
((Freys))

The Vale
(Lysa)
(Robert Arryn)
Blackfish

Riverrun
(Edmure)
(Hoster)

The East
Daenerys
Viserys
Jorah
Drogo
((the dothrakis))
>Dragons

A Clash of Kings :

Beyond the Wall
(Craster)
(Qhorin)
(Ygritte)

Winterfell
(Reek/Ramsay)
(The Reeds)

Iron Islands
(Balon)
Asha
Victarion
(Aeron)

Dragonstone
Stannis
Davos
(Cressen)
Melisandre

Harrenhall
((Brave Companions))

Black Brothers (Yoren's crew)
(Hot Pie)
Jaqen

With Renly
Margaery
Randyll
Brienne

The East
(Strong Belwas)

A Storm of Swords :

The Wall & Beyond
Mance

Riverlands
(BwB)

King's Landing
(Orella)
(Mace)
(Oberyn)

A Feast for Crows :

Iron Islands
Euron

Riverlands
(Hyle Hunt)

Oldtown
(Pate)
(Arellas)
(Marwyn)

Dorne
(Doran)
(Arianne)
(Areo Hotah

[kuroishi]

So, hum... I don't know if anyone else is still interested in this, but as I had some time on my hand today I made a timeline by character entirely based on Errant Bard's very handy global timeline.

There are some things I am not sure of, especially regarding the Greyjoys's whereabouts. And I couldn't find if we know what happens to Davos when Stannis sails off to the Wall.

I didn't include any post-AFFC spoilers (about Theon or Tyrion).

Maybe following a character in Dorne could be useful (Arianne ?)...
I don't know if putting Randyll Tarly is a very good call.
I put Asha and Victarion because it seems like they'll have parts to play in the future.

After that maybe I should make a timeline by location... Either way I'm not volunteering for anything involving pencils or an animated map because of my lack of skills (Datepalm's idea is pretty good, but we'd have to be much more precise than my monthly-timeline), but I hope these little things will come in handy for anyone who will decide to do it.

[arrowfan]

I had and idea somewhat similar to this but I dont have the skills to make it:

Animated Character and Event Timeline
Using that amazing full color map of Westeros (i think it's called Westeros_3), you'd have all the characters as colored dots on the map. You could set the speed of the timeline and the character dots would animate, tracing their migration and significant events across the map.

Battles and other events would show up when and where they occur (Jon taken by wildlings, red wedding, battles at the Fist and King's Landing, character deaths, even more trivial events like when Jaime and Brienne duel, etc). You could pause the animation and click on the character dots or event markers for a little pop-up window with more info about the event or what the character is doing/intends to do.

It's fairly geeky, but would be really fun and interesting for die-hard fans. For example, you could see conjunctions like when Jon and Bran almost run into each other at the abandoned tower, close misses like Arya and Brienne (both at Inn of Kneeling Man only a few days apart... i think).

Using the timelines people have already made it wouldn't be as difficult as I previously thought it would be. But it'd require some Flash skills.

Edited by arrowfan, 18 February 2010 - 05:08 AM.

[Errant Bard]

Regarding the narrative chart, even Randall munroe's LOTR one limits itself to the main characters, I don't think there is much value in adding people like the Hound, the BwB, or other minor people. It just makes the image unreadable. I have a working (rough) one scribbled alongside my timeline notes, I'd have to pretty it up with gimp if I ever have time.

arrowfan, on 18 February 2010 - 05:05 AM, said:

Using the timelines people have already made it wouldn't be as difficult as I previously thought it would be. But it'd require some Flash skills.

As a matter of fact, Flash working with a concept of timeline already, it'd be ridiculously easy. No "Flash skills" really necessary, just some gimp/photoshop ones to make the images, then it's just a matter of copy pasting (and maybe a bit of code on a front page button like: "if click then goto frame2").

But it would involve some work anyway, to cover 3 years of movements. And it requires owning flash.

[Happy Ent]

For just the timeline, the proper technology is Simile project’s timeline: https://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ No coding, free.

[Brude]

This is a really fun idea and that Simile project seems an ideal way to do it online. Not sure I still have the level of concentration necessary to contribute to this, like I maybe once had.

I like the timelines linked in the original post, though his Primer timeline is a bit off (yes, I know it's a joke). However, someone has done what appears to be a correct timeline for that movie. I once sat down with it as I watched the film and it all fit into place very well.

Edited by Brude, 18 February 2010 - 10:42 AM.

[Happy Ent]

Errant Bard, on 18 February 2010 - 05:53 AM, said:

Regarding the narrative chart, even Randall munroe's LOTR one limits itself to the main characters, I don't think there is much value in adding people like the Hound, the BwB, or other minor people. It just makes the image unreadable.

I did the POV characters of Game last night, and that's pretty easy. No trouble fitting the whole chart on a page of A4 paper. The most exciting bit are Catelyn's and Tyrion's travels. I even added the northern army and Tywin's army. At least for Game, one could easily add those characters who become POVs, i.e., Jaime (leaves the main bundle of lines after he amushes Ned and rejoins Catelyn's arc at the Whispering Woods), Cersei (follows Sansa all the time), Davos (no interaction, just leaves KL before everybody else gets back). It would be attractive to add Jaime's army.

(Doing this I am again stricken by the speed of Catelyn. She's all over the place in no time!)

But for the following books, it's all much worse. It seems to be a good idea to sketch all four books before doing serious work on this, to get a feeling for which level of detail is feasible.

(Technical detail: for all OmniGraffle Pro's nice features, what one really wants for this task is automatically aligned parallel lines with pairwise adjusting curve radii. I don't know any software that does this.)

Edited by Cчастливый Энт, 19 February 2010 - 04:04 AM.

[Errant Bard]

Cчастливый Энт, on 19 February 2010 - 04:03 AM, said:

(Doing this I am again stricken by the speed of Catelyn. She's all over the place in no time!)

Heh, wait till you do Sam, on my roughs, for the ASOS/AFFC period, he crosses the whole graph twice almost instanteneously. On the other hand, Arya doesn't move that much all things considered, just a big dip to go to Braavos but that's about it

[Datepalm]

Errant Bard, on 19 February 2010 - 04:11 AM, said:

Heh, wait till you do Sam, on my roughs, for the ASOS/AFFC period, he crosses the whole graph twice almost instanteneously. On the other hand, Arya doesn't move that much all things considered, just a big dip to go to Braavos but that's about it

I did a very rough draft and Sam is a giant whizzing zig zag, and so is Cat. When I added in more characters it just becomes messy and loses all aesthetic quality. Things get hidden and distorted by only having one one dimesion representing two though. (Need map. I have some notion that this might be possible in Google Earth/Maps - certainly overlaying a westeros map is doable - but so far my experimentation with KML has proven woeful.)

[Errant Bard]

Datepalm, on 19 February 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

Things get hidden and distorted by only having one one dimesion representing two though. (Need map.

Won't work. You have at most two dimensions, so either way you cannot have x, y and t.

The narrative chart isn't about locations, though, but about narration, so moving lines so they match some sort of north/south position is not required.

[Datepalm]

Errant Bard, on 19 February 2010 - 06:13 AM, said:

Won't work. You have at most two dimensions, so either way you cannot have x, y and t.

Unless we figure out some way to stick in a moving timeline. Failing that, even arrows. I agree that thats not really what that kind of narrative timeline is about, I just found that it lapsed into incompehensibility long before there was enough information on it to be interesting, considering that you've already done the timeline work which is perfectly interesting in itself.

[lordMountainGoat]

In some ways I rather wish I had not read this thread because I have been playing about with Google Earth for the last couple of days.

As Datepalm said it is easy enough to overlay images of the maps but the timeline functionality is not customisable enough to let you do the kind of detailed animation we are talking about here. Which means programming a custom control mechanism which will only display placemarks and paths on specific dates.

If you want to take a look at what I have done in Google Earth then follow these steps:

1. Download and install Google Earth if you don't already have it (and it is such an awesome application you really should have it anyway)
2. Make sure all the layers are switched off in Earth view otherwise they will interfere with what you see
3. Download this file and open in Google Earth - A Song of Ice and Fire
4. Enjoy. Make sure you save after you are done


I'm not even going to start attempting to play with KML, but I do have Flash. I know how I could create the kind of animated map suggested by Arrowfan but it would probably be a static map. Right now I'm not sure how to incorporate zooming and scrolling functions on just that one part of the window whilst maintaining multiple layers of information. I'm sure there must be a way to do it though.