Does George RR Martin hate women?

[Chairman7w]

Interesting, I talked a long time friend of mine into reading the books, and now that she's finished, I was VERY excited to ask her what she thought... and she hates them. I was dumbfounded. How could someone hate such great books? (especially since she's really into this whole genre)

Her actual reply: "Mr. Martin flat-out hates women. If any female character dares make a move toward any personal independence, they are either threatened with rape, secretly lesbian, blinded, or ugly. Seriously, he has problems. It's a shame, because in the hands of a competent writer, it's got some great story ideas; I just have to put down the book every chapter or so and wash the slimy feeling off my hands."

Now, I respect everybody's opinion (especially hers, I've known her for many, many years), but I have heard this angle before. But as I go back and look, there is some truth to it, and I kinda see her point. (The Unburnt One notwithstanding).

I've not seen this opinion on here before (but admittedly, there are gazillions of threads), Do any of you feel this way? Is this a common theory?

[Ran]

I've heard it, but it's an opinion that seems to be divorced from an author's attempt to remain consistent with his setting. Women are hardly the only people who are slapped down in this setting when they try to move out of the roles defined for them by society. Tyrion Lannister, anyone?

(Since when is being a lesbian, secret or otherwise, a hateful thing?)

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

Has she read period/fantasy novels before? I'm not sure what she wants tbh. A suffragette movement in medieval Europe?

I know a couple of people who have similar feelings on the novels (not nearly as strong however) and they are simply the type who can't divorce their modern outlook from the novel's setting.

[The SmilingKnight]

You know what they say about personal opinions? I think that applies in this case very much.

And btw what does that "Unburnt one notwithstanding" mean?

That we should forcibly forget the direct and strongest evidence countrary to that vapid personal impression in order to agree with it?

OK, i agree. Are you happy now?

But really just NO.

Did you ask your friend what would she expect to happen in such a world? That everyone would just bow down and let any female take whatever she wants juts because she wants it and because she is female?

Since when is being a lesbian, secret or otherwise, a hateful thing?

Ditto

Seems like someone is having some personal problems.

[shadow catlady]

Wow. And I know that slimy feeling, and have put books down because of it, but not these.

I think all of the characters are flawed, female and male. And most of them deeply realized. I think circumstances thwart many of the characters, but did not ever feel this was more biased toward women, except that the society itself is pretty patriarchal.

This is an interesting take. I am wondering what authors she prefers to read?

[Prince of the North]

Interesting, I talked a long time friend of mine into reading the books, and now that she's finished, I was VERY excited to ask her what she thought... and she hates them. I was dumbfounded. How could someone hate such great books? (especially since she's really into this whole genre)

Her actual reply: "Mr. Martin flat-out hates women. If any female character dares make a move toward any personal independence, they are either threatened with rape, secretly lesbian, blinded, or ugly. Seriously, he has problems. It's a shame, because in the hands of a competent writer, it's got some great story ideas; I just have to put down the book every chapter or so and wash the slimy feeling off my hands."

Now, I respect everybody's opinion (especially hers, I've known her for many, many years), but I have heard this angle before. But as I go back and look, there is some truth to it, and I kinda see her point. (The Unburnt One notwithstanding).

I've not seen this opinion on here before (but admittedly, there are gazillions of threads), Do any of you feel this way? Is this a common theory?

Actually, the idea that Martin hates women does come up from time to time in various threads dealing with his female characters. However, I respectfully disagree with this sentiment. You see, I think it's sometimes important to remember the setting of the story: it's medieval. Placing our current values, etc. on it will not necessarily work. Also, for all the threats or violence or whatever these female characters go through I think we can come up with many, many instances where female characters in ASoIaF do what they want - they do exhibit "personal independence".

[The SmilingKnight]

Asha Greyjoy anyone?

[WhiteHaven]

I think that this is ridiculous accusation. I don't think that his intention is to write a political book.

In Westeros woman are treated that way because Westeros is Europe back in the Dark Ages with Undead Hordes and some crazy dragons, nothing more. I heard that women were treated like shit back then, so here you go.

And yeah, since when are lesbians something to hate?

[Bubba]

I've read this here and other places before, so it's a fairly common opinion.

Martin shows females in a lot of different ways in this series. We have Catelyn who is the traditional mother who loves and will do anything for her children. Catelyn is well respected throughout these novels and no one really questions her when she has a big prescense in Robb's government. Cersei is another strong AND pretty woman. She hates the fact that she isn't a man and wants to do a mans job. And she does. People fear her. If she wasn't so paranoid or bent on destroying Margaery she would have done a much better job a regent.

I'm guessing the OP's friend is referring mostly to Brienne, who is threatened to be raped throughout ASOS and FFC. Which is to be expected. She is a woman in a mans place running around in the wild with dangerous and monsteros men. And I'm glad Brienne is ugly. If every female was pretty like Catelyn, Sansa, or Cersie it would just be bad writing.

Martin doesn't hate women, he just shows a lot of different views of them. Just like he does with the men. It's just good writing.

[Alexia]

I don't agree. Yes, life sucks for women in Westeros (and it sucked for women in medieval times too) but its not all that good for the men either. Come on, Jaime lost a hand, Tyrion lost a nose, the Hound's face is burnt up, Gregor died over a period of weeks screaming, Oberyn got his face crushed in by a dying foe, Ned was shortened by a head, Bran was thrown out of window, blah, blah, blah.

Using that logic, why not accuse the author of misanthropy and be done with it? I mean, it makes as much sense.

[The SmilingKnight]

I could argue that women are treated much worse in our modern times still.

Whoa dude... this world/reality/modern times hates women!

[Ran]

Well, all texts are political texts, when seen in a certain light... ;)

GRRM's doing his best to show that life in the Middle Ages (or a similar period) was, to quote Hobbes, "solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short."

[Balerion the Cat]

The way women are considered in Westeros (which is completely different than saying "by Mr. Martin") proves how good is the setting, and how a great writer Martin is.

It's a medieval world so realistic that you can get (almost) rid of the Fantasy cliché. Yes, there are some bones thrown also to Fantasy clichés (Daenerys above all), but, fortunately, the setting also goes very far from that. I think the reported opinion is by a person that can not look at something without seeing it with modern eyes (and even a little politically correct, meaning no offense).

Moreover, if you apply the same analysis to men, seems to me you could land on the same statements. So, why speaking about Martin attitude toward women and not toward men?

Damn, put in a row Robert, Tywin, Theon, etc. etc., even Robb, Jon, Bran (petulant), Rickon (tough guy), etc. etc. and tell me who is safe. The truth is they all are REALISTIC characters in a REALISTIC medieval world.

[WhiteHaven]

Well, all texts are political texts, when seen in a certain light... ;)

Well...you are quite right. However, I doubt that we can imply that Martin hates women because they are raped, killed, punished. But I know that you see it in the same light. (Or so I guess :P)

[Alexia]

However, I doubt that we can imply that Martin hates women because they are raped, killed, punished.

If anything, I thought the subtext was a bit of social commentary on how awful things were for women, not a celebration of that. That being said, I would have liked a Margaery or Olenna POV but I think he felt that was covered with Dany.

And who in the books is secretly lesbian?

[Spanky]

I think the thing she fails to realize is that bad stuff happens to EVERYONE in these books, not just women. I mean,

Bran gets paralyzed, Ned gets his head off, Jaime gets de-limbed, Robert gets gored to death, onion knight is in all kinds of trouble, Sam goes through hell, on and on and on. Hell, one of the only characters to kinda kick ass at what they do is Dany, a female.

I think your friend is just singling out all the bad things happening to women, when in fact, bad things happen to all the characters. In conclusion, Martin hates everyone. :D

[alguien]

Sounds like your friend was projecting a little personal bias into her interpretation of the series.

Really, if that's her conclusion after finishing the first four books, then... >takes a moment to figure out how to say this without being rude< She's missing out on some really great stories by focusing on issues that are, as I see it, self-created by her.

Some of my favorite posters to read on this forum are very strong women. (at least they come across that way) They don't hesitate to criticize an author they like if they disagree with his portrayal of females, if my recollection of various Bakker threads is correct. Yet for the most part, they don't have a huge problem with the way GRRM writes his women. (again, IIRC)

[3idcrow]

I would like to strongly disagree with this opinion. I think any story told in medieval timeframe cannot pretend that women had the same rights as men without being completely unrealistic. Rape and violence and absolute dependence were the reality of women's life at that time and GRRM's work has plenty of that. But what I also feel very strongly is author's sympathy to the victims of these circumstances. Think about it, when do we feel best about Cersei? When she reveals the details of her life with Robert. What made some of us like Sansa better? Her being abused by Joff. I feel that even his male characters are judged by the way they treat their women: we loved a good king Robert until we knew him for a rapist and wife-beater, right? But we like Sandor a lot better for his kindness to Sansa and Arya. I see the author’s hand in this change of sentiment. I think in every scene of violence done to women we can feel a very strong author’s position: he does not enjoy it like a women-hater would, he condemns it with passion.

I think that GRRM’s characters, male and female alike, are strong despite the cruel trials they have to survive. Like courage that is only valuable in a presence of fear the strength only makes a difference if it’s tried against cruelty and injustice. And GRRM’s female characters have plenty of that strength.

GRRM is not pulling the punches, he writes realistic characters and none of them are angels (except for Pod, of course :D ), neither male nor female. But I’d say that some of the best-written moments in ASOIAF show the best in women’s characters: Sansa and a snow castle, Cat by Bran’s bedside, Sansa and Sandor’s last scene, Alalaya, I can go on forever.

No, GRRM loves his women; he makes us feeling their pain and celebrating their strength and courage.

[MountainThatRides]

I don't think Mr. Martin hates women any more than any other author in the genre; quite the contrary, I find that he's able to shift almost seamlessly between points of view and make them believable, whether the character in question is a man, a woman, good or bad. As I've never been a woman I can't speak for authenticity, whether young girls or women would think and act the way Martin's female characters do, but I've never stopped for a moment to question anything. To me, regardless of how certain characters are treated within a novel (whether due to gender, race, whatever) has nothing to do with the author's personal opinion; it's a necessity in the world he's created. I think the fact that the female characters are so believable and sympathetic speaks volumes for the author's feelings about women.

The world of Westeros is heavily influenced by the historical middle ages, and in either case there are many instances of strong women who overcome adversity; I would say that Martin's society is probably more forgiving towards women than real history was.

Cersei, despite being a venomous and altogether awful person, is still a woman struggling in a masculine society. In the beginning it was her children she strove for, not for herself -- her motivations have grown less noble but she is still a powerful female figure. She could be compared with many historical figures (Eleanor of Aquitaine leaps immediately to mind), a woman who fights with what weapons are available to her. Catelyn Stark is another example of this redoubtable noblewoman archetype, though she is far less machiavellian.

Melisandre could be considered villainous, but we know too little to pin down exactly what motivates her, whether she can be classified as good or evil; very few characters, male or female, can be clearly placed in Martin's world. They're all shades of grey.

Brienne of Tarth isn't just a woman competing in a man's world, she's a woman who competes on a man's terms. She doesn't hide behind a false face of courtesy and scheme underhandedly. She straps on heavy plate and bludgeons people with various weapons. Comparable with Joan of Arc, though, in my opinion, far more interesting.

There's numerous other female characters who are just as strong and self-possessed as their male counterparts. Arya and Sansa, Genna Lannister, Arianne Martell, Asha Greyjoy, Ygritte, the female Mormonts, the list goes on. Considering the way Martin has constructed his world, and the way their society works, these women can all be considered heroic figures in one way or another.

The most obvious argument is, of course, Daenerys Targaryen. She's a heroine. She's intelligent, brave and resilient. She shows wisdom far in excess of her tender years. She's been through more tragedy and strife at her age than most people go through their whole lives. She is constantly faced with adversity and coming out the other side -- perhaps not unscathed, but stronger, wiser, more experienced.

Yes, bad things happen to female characters. They happen to male characters, too. One important point is that the characters who are truly frightening -- the characters who are not simply misunderstood, but rightfully maligned, and with very small chance for redemption -- are all male. They represent the brutish, merciless and evil aspects of mankind and they are all men; Gregor Clegane, Ramsey Bolton, Rorge and Biter, the Bloody Mummers, etc.

Martin doesn't hate women. He hates everyone.

[SFDanny]

Her actual reply: "Mr. Martin flat-out hates women. If any female character dares make a move toward any personal independence, they are either threatened with rape, secretly lesbian, blinded, or ugly. Seriously, he has problems. It's a shame, because in the hands of a competent writer, it's got some great story ideas; I just have to put down the book every chapter or so and wash the slimy feeling off my hands."

Now that she mentions it, I see the light. Martin must hate women because terrible things happen to them in his novels. Makes perfect sense. Now, I just have to readjust my thinking on novels such as "Jane Eyre," "Sense and Sensibility," and "The Handmaid's Tale." Terrible things happen to women characters in everyone of them. Bronte, Austen, Atwood misogynists everyone.