224 replies to this topic

[Aubrem]

Have you noticed that there is no sexual tension in these books?  Not even any not-necessarily-sexual chemistry?  

Ned and Catelyn - sooooo very formal and with no oomph though I believe there was affection and respect.
Robb and whatshername - he gave up a kingdom and his life for her but you'd think she was a stranger from what we saw!
Jamie and Cersei - arguably THE biggest passionate relationship in the story and I read nothing from them.  Just frustrated and bitter and stuck with old habits.
Dany and Drogo - surely we should have seen some heat here but no - though I do think the "sun and stars" is a nice touch.
Jon and Ygritte - nope, wasn't feeling that one either.

How about Ser Jorah's thing for Dany?  Just creepy and jarring imo.  I feel no heat there.

Ser Lorah's grief for Renly - are you feeling it?  Not me.

I love these books and GRRM's writing and I think he writes great characters.  He just seems to be weak on relationships.  Sure, 90% of the sex is treated as just a bodily need like eating and sleeping - and that fits, but still - some of these are supposed to be passionate emotional relationships, no?  

I'll confess, the only spark I've felt is between The Hound and Sansa - twisted though it is.  Maybe *because* it's twisted?  He's got a real little obsession going there and she's got some kind of repressed sexual attraction going on.  Both are in their heads and wrapped up in the identity/role of the other person as much as physical attraction.  What do you think?

[Ser David the Just]

Honestly I like the books the way they are. I don't want it to be one of those books with a hard-bodied half naked man on the front that.

But there is alot of sexual tension, its just not from the main characters. At all the feasts the bannermen or their sons are all feeling up serving girls and camp followers in the camps.

No disrespect, but do you think that since you are female that you want these books to have stuff like that?

[Aubrem]

Ser David the Just, on 10 April 2010 - 07:48 PM, said:

Honestly I like the books the way they are. I don't want it to be one of those books with a hard-bodied half naked man on the front that.

But there is alot of sexual tension, its just not from the main characters. At all the feasts the bannermen or their sons are all feeling up serving girls and camp followers in the camps.

No disrespect, but do you think that since you are female that you want these books to have stuff like that?

Noooo.  And I'll try not to take offense.  : )  I'm not talking about bodice-ripping romance.  I mean chemistry.  Hmmmm, let me think.  Morgaine and Vanye from CJ Cherryh's Morgaine books.  Aragorn and Arwen from LOTR.  You hardly see them together but you can feel the attraction.  There are lots of examples.  It doesn't even need to be sexual.  How about C.S. Friedman's Black Sun Rising Books?  The dynamic between the two main characters make everything else in the books pale, it's so strong.

The relationships exist in these books (Jaime and Cersei!) but you just don't *feel* it - you have to take the character's words for it.  There aren't any real buddy relationships in these books either though there wouldn't be since no one can trust anyone.  : /

[Ser David the Just]

Ohhh, I see what you mean. Although to be fair, Tolkien 'hid' most of the Aragorn/Arwen romance in the appendix  .

[Aubrem]

Ser David the Just, on 10 April 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

Ohhh, I see what you mean. Although to be fair, Tolkien 'hid' most of the Aragorn/Arwen romance in the appendix  .

Nevertheless, you know what "chemistry" is, right?  You even see it in your all-guy shoot-'em-up buddy movies, right?  It's a connection between two people and a good writer can tie ropes around you with it.  That's the only thing I'm missing in this series.  It *should* be there.  We should feel the respect and affection between Ned and Catelyn.  Robb should be distracted and we should get that.  HIs widow's loyalty to him shouldn't be such a surprise when we see it at the end of the last book.  Jaime and Cersei should have us wanting to read more interaction between them - not feeling vaguely unclean in the early scene and wishing Tyrion was around to entertain us in the later ones.  Jon and Ygritte made no sense at all except on a purely physical level but there should have been more to it.  "You know nothing Jon Snow" was a nice stab and I almost felt it.  Almost.

I'd like to list a bunch of friendships we should be feeling too but of course in this world it's near impossible to have friendships.  I'd like to feel a bit between Jon and Sam though from what I read last night (reread) Jon was mostly about pity with Sam, not respect or affection.  This is why the Kingsguard kinda fails for me.  Those guys should be like brothers but they aren't - even before the shakeups began.  Up in the Nightswatch you get a couple of revelatory scenes where the character is all "THESE are my brothers" but nah, I'm not really believing it - because they don't act like it.  They don't talk like it.  There's no chemistry.  No bond.  

Tyrion and Bronn ... almost.  Almost!!

The Hound and Sansa though - there I almost sort of sat up and took notice.  The little hints are there - right from the scene on the Trident.  They don't light up the way they should though.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Sexual tension?

  There's definitely some when you consider Jon and Sam: both of them really agonize over the sexiness they eventually engage in. It's obvious that both of them are attracted to the women they are involved with, but their whole "Oooohh noooo! It'll break my vows!!!" stuff is total sexual tension for both of them considering their desire to adhere to their sense of honor.

[Aubrem]

DizoakiusMaximus, on 10 April 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

Sexual tension?

  There's definitely some when you consider Jon and Sam: both of them really agonize over the sexiness they eventually engage in. It's obvious that both of them are attracted to the women they are involved with, but their whole "Oooohh noooo! It'll break my vows!!!" stuff is total sexual tension for both of them considering their desire to adhere to their sense of honor.

I can see the attempt but I don't think it really works.  I see a couple of teenage boys who can't control their hormones.  The women could be anyone though.  There's no chemistry between Jon and Ygritte and Sam and whatsherface that I can tell.  Those just happen to be the available women coming on to them.

[Alexia]

DizoakiusMaximus, on 10 April 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

There's definitely some when you consider Jon and Sam: both of them really agonize over the sexiness they eventually engage in. It's obvious that both of them are attracted to the women they are involved with, but their whole "Oooohh noooo! It'll break my vows!!!" stuff is total sexual tension for both of them considering their desire to adhere to their sense of honor.

Agree.  Sansa and Sandor were the main pair with which GRRM seemed to want to really lay on the sexual tension thickly but its certainly present throughout the narrative.  There is also Ser Arys and Arianne, Dany and Daario, and others.  Jaime and Cersei are the defining sexual relationship for the books but they also have been lovers for over 15 years, you can't expect the same from them as you get from the Sansa and Sandor relationship.  Plus, their relationship is just gross to the reader...you are supposed to feel unclean after reading about it and GRRM laid that aspect on thickly.  

I think Sansa and Sandor stands out more because nothing has happened yet but they both clearly want to, whereas the tension is quickly consummated with others such as with Jon and Sam.  Personally, I didn't particularly care for either Jon or Sam's relationships but I always assumed it was because I wasn't very invested in either character.

I agree on Catelyn and Ned though...I always wished Cat's narrative wasn't quite so stripped of sexuality.

Edited by Alexia, 10 April 2010 - 10:45 PM.

[Ser David the Just]

Aubrem, on 10 April 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

Nevertheless, you know what "chemistry" is, right?  You even see it in your all-guy shoot-'em-up buddy movies, right?  It's a connection between two people and a good writer can tie ropes around you with it.  That's the only thing I'm missing in this series.  It *should* be there.  We should feel the respect and affection between Ned and Catelyn.  Robb should be distracted and we should get that.  HIs widow's loyalty to him shouldn't be such a surprise when we see it at the end of the last book.  Jaime and Cersei should have us wanting to read more interaction between them - not feeling vaguely unclean in the early scene and wishing Tyrion was around to entertain us in the later ones.  Jon and Ygritte made no sense at all except on a purely physical level but there should have been more to it.  "You know nothing Jon Snow" was a nice stab and I almost felt it.  Almost.

I'd like to list a bunch of friendships we should be feeling too but of course in this world it's near impossible to have friendships.  I'd like to feel a bit between Jon and Sam though from what I read last night (reread) Jon was mostly about pity with Sam, not respect or affection.  This is why the Kingsguard kinda fails for me.  Those guys should be like brothers but they aren't - even before the shakeups began.  Up in the Nightswatch you get a couple of revelatory scenes where the character is all "THESE are my brothers" but nah, I'm not really believing it - because they don't act like it.  They don't talk like it.  There's no chemistry.  No bond.  

Tyrion and Bronn ... almost.  Almost!!

The Hound and Sansa though - there I almost sort of sat up and took notice.  The little hints are there - right from the scene on the Trident.  They don't light up the way they should though.

I think if GRRM wanted more romance and chemistry (your definition) he would put it where its appropriate (such as Sansa and the Clegane). I don't want to plow through scenes of charming and coquettish dialogue between two star-crossed lovers who are just enamored in each other. To me GRRMS 'chemistry' is in the interaction of the characters like LF, Varys, Eddard, Stannis, etc.

In terms of the friendships I find them especially satisfying. The people I work with all know we might have to die for each other (especially considering this new Polish crap) but we don't break down (or at least not yet) and have deep conversations about what it means. Jon, Sam, Pyp, Grenn, I can see in my mind their friendship, the way the act around each other, the easiness of jokes and all that. Jon and Robb is another good one, Bran and Meera + Jojen, I would also say the whole Frey clan and their interactions, the Manderly Brothers, the Tallhart killed on the Stony shore with his friends, or especially Brienne and Jaime. Most of these happen off-screen but I don't need the dialogue to see their friendship, I can see by the way they act and feel as the story goes on.

What do you mean they don't act like Brothers of the Night's Watch (barring a few traitors)? They DIE for each other and their vows...that is friendship if I have ever seen one.

I expect the Kingsguard of the present to act as they do, imagine a modern-day board of directors who all hate each other and have differnt ideas of where their company should be headed. Its written plainly in Jaime's POV's that the Kingsguard has fallen so I'm not sure what you are trying to say on that point.

[Datepalm]

How about Jaime and Brienne? Thats not "friendship tension", that isn't.

My complete failure to pick up the Sandor/Sansa thing has surely damned me forever as a woman, but I thought LF and Sansa have an odd, creepy sort of thing going. Its not nice, but you can smell a certain interest in the air.

[The Usurper]

First thing I thought of when I saw this thread was the tension between Jaime and Brienne. I think that's pretty well done.

PS first post here, hi all

Edited by The Usurper, 10 April 2010 - 11:14 PM.

[Alexia]

Datepalm, on 10 April 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

but I thought LF and Sansa have an odd, creepy sort of thing going. Its not nice, but you can smell a certain interest in the air.

Would you really call that chemistry or sexual tension though?  Sansa is creeped out by and its basically a perverted man forcing his attentions on a girl who is too scared to reject him and who he knows doesn't want him.  When I think of chemistry and/or sexual tension, I think of mutual interest.  

Jaime and Brienne is a great suggestion though, there seems to be plenty of tension there.

[Aubrem]

Alexia, on 10 April 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

Would you really call that chemistry or sexual tension though?  Sansa is creeped out by and its basically a perverted man forcing his attentions on a girl who is too scared to reject him and who he knows doesn't want him.  When I think of chemistry and/or sexual tension, I think of mutual interest.  

Jaime and Brienne is a great suggestion though, there seems to be plenty of tension there.

My complaint is that the outlines of all those relationships are there but I don't think the spark is written in well.  (No,that doesn't mean pages of dull heaving bosoms).  Jaime and Brienne kinda is and *should* be interesting but is it really?  I find myself thinking more about what I *wish* I was getting out of the two of them.  For the record, it's not romance - it's more "oh wow, a woman can be more than someone I have sex with or who brings me food."  Jaime went back and saved her but I still don't really get why - I'm not feeling what that is.  It's not friendship.  Did it really have anything to do with Brienne at all?  Wasn't it more about Jaime trying to find a path to honor?

[Please guys, don't get all emotional with me on this.  I'm just throwing out some ideas and trying to have an interesting discussion.]

[Aubrem]

Datepalm, on 10 April 2010 - 10:50 PM, said:

How about Jaime and Brienne? Thats not "friendship tension", that isn't.

My complete failure to pick up the Sandor/Sansa thing has surely damned me forever as a woman, but I thought LF and Sansa have an odd, creepy sort of thing going. Its not nice, but you can smell a certain interest in the air.

The Sandor/Sansa thing is verrrry subtle (but really there) so don't beat yourself up for missing it.  LF does have a creepy thing for Sansa that's going to just get bigger I think.  The interesting thing will be if Sansa starts to use it to manipulate LF.  She's learning fast, she might.

[Celebuial]

DizoakiusMaximus, on 10 April 2010 - 09:09 PM, said:

Sexual tension?

  There's definitely some when you consider Jon and Sam: both of them really agonize over the sexiness they eventually engage in. It's obvious that both of them are attracted to the women they are involved with, but their whole "Oooohh noooo! It'll break my vows!!!" stuff is total sexual tension for both of them considering their desire to adhere to their sense of honor.

  Also you were saying you didn't get any 'buddy chemistry' either. Well I think Jon and Sam's relationship is full of this right form the begining, but especially when Jon becomes Lord Commander and has to send Sam away. I think you can see it when Sam is discovering what Jon has done with the babies as well. I thought that was an interesting dynamic and really shows how their relationship is changing from just friends to one where Jon has power over Sam. I think there is great love and respect between these two and that shows clearly IMO.

Also if you're ripping your clothes off in the freezing cold I don't care who you are that has to show chemistry!!!

[Datepalm]

Alexia, on 10 April 2010 - 11:02 PM, said:

Would you really call that chemistry or sexual tension though? Sansa is creeped out by and its basically a perverted man forcing his attentions on a girl who is too scared to reject him and who he knows doesn't want him. When I think of chemistry and/or sexual tension, I think of mutual interest.

I think there is mutual interest there - not good interest, certainly, but in the sense that Sansa find LF interesting, not necessarily romantically, though obviously given how he acts towards her it unlikely the realization that he dosen't quite think of her as a daughter hasn't crossed her mind. I do see whats going in with the Hound - there too, Sansa is involved, Sansa and LF just get more time together. (And needless to say, I find both utterly terrifying prospects for her.)

Jon and Ygritte is a relashionship that felt like it should have had a bit more sizzle, but was undercut somewhat by Ygritte. OTOH, thats from Jon's perspective. Ygritte is a sweet kid, but hes not her first and shes not breaking any oaths and so on, so from her perspective it could just be no more than a fun fling with this slightly exotic emo guy.

Jaime and Cercei I think is deliberately gross, Tyrion and Shae a fundamentally ugly fantasy...and who does that leave, really?

[Alexia]

Datepalm, on 11 April 2010 - 06:50 AM, said:

I think there is mutual interest there - not good interest, certainly, but in the sense that Sansa find LF interesting, not necessarily romantically, though obviously given how he acts towards her it unlikely the realization that he dosen't quite think of her as a daughter hasn't crossed her mind.

Quote

Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go.

Quote

The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound...He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen.

Quote

"I despise porridge."  He looked at her with Littlefinger's eyes.  "I'd sooner break my fast with a kiss."  
A true daughter would not refuse her sire a kiss, so Alayne went to him and kissed him, a quick dry peck upon the cheek, and just as quickly stepped away.  
"How...dutiful."  Littlefinger smiled with his mouth, but not his eyes.

Yeah, she reads as being really scared of him, feeling trapped, and not being attracted him at all...and LF is aware of this.  What did Sandor do when he thought she didn't want him?  He got up and left the room.  What did LF do?  Continue to demand unwanted kisses.

[Imagica]

I've never thought about Sandor and Sansa as a "couple" before visiting this board, and I still find it more twisted and creepy than, say, Jaime/Cersei. Maybe because I don't have such a big problem with incest. Littlefinger/Sansa is even worse, though. I hope he'll never get to consummate his "attentions".
Oh, and I kind of liked Arianne and Arys, probably the most of all couples of ASOIAF. But then, I emphasize with Arianne a lot for some reason.

[Aubrem]

Imagica, on 11 April 2010 - 08:06 AM, said:

I've never thought about Sandor and Sansa as a "couple" before visiting this board, and I still find it more twisted and creepy than, say, Jaime/Cersei. Maybe because I don't have such a big problem with incest. Littlefinger/Sansa is even worse, though. I hope he'll never get to consummate his "attentions".
Oh, and I kind of liked Arianne and Arys, probably the most of all couples of ASOIAF. But then, I emphasize with Arianne a lot for some reason.

I totally misread Arianne and Arys (which was a shock because I pride myself on *not* misreading very often!  : )  I thought Arianne was just using him - the classic exotic seductress.  That scene between them sure seemed to play out that way - she was entirely in control.  Then it turned out she really did care for him!  I'm still not sure I believe it.  I think GRRM tacked that on at the end to make her more sympathetic.  ::nods::   ; )

[dolorouseddwasright]

The Usurper, on 10 April 2010 - 11:00 PM, said:

First thing I thought of when I saw this thread was the tension between Jaime and Brienne. I think that's pretty well done.

PS first post here, hi all

Welcome to the board.  I hope you find it interesting and enjoyable.    Don't worry, we're not totally insane.  Just partially.

And yeah, Jaime and Brienne definitely had some tension.

Edited by dolorouseddwasright, 11 April 2010 - 09:38 AM.