Question about Malazan

[sailor]

I read the first 10 pages of Gardens of the Moon and I am wondering if this is the right book for me. What I really really liked about ASOIAF is that there are no cartoon bad guys in it. No character who is all bad and just for the sake of it. There are plenty of bad guys but they all have their real motifs for what they do. (OK except Gregor who is simply a psycho.) But here in Malazan right away I was treated to a scene that has two guys behaving like total cartoon bad guy characters. They seem to cherish being evil just for the kicks, one of the two especially. Please tell me these despite their initial appearance two turn out to be either actually rational guys motivated by normal concerns or an exception to the rule when it comes to Malazan characters.

I'm sorry but GRRM spoilt me. I don't think I want to read this series if it is going to have cartoony sort of antagonists. :(

[Gormenghast]

Who's there? Shadowthrone and Cotillion? There's A LOT more than meets the eyes.

But if you expect the playground to be revealed in front of you so that you can connect to it, then you'll be sorely deluded. Motivations are never too clear and have to be discovered along the whole storyline. Most things start to make sense only in retrospect.

You could also see some characters as "cartoonish" if you come with prejudices. Malazan is a series about misdirection and reversals. In most cases impressions are there to be subverted later on, and then again.

[Slick Mongoose]

Please tell me these despite their initial appearance two turn out to be either actually rational guys motivated by normal concerns

"Rational" and "normal" may be a stretch, but yes.

[werewolfv2]

"Rational" and "normal" may be a stretch, but yes.

LOL, thats an understatement :P

but there is much more than meets the eye.

...

For some reason I just thought of the Imp on LSD with the powers of a God.....

[Old Nan]

SPOILER generalities

There are the Jaghut Tyrants, who manipulated whole species for shits and giggles until the Imass decided to dedicate themselves to an eternal war of genocide. The gods do essentially the same thing, but they're worshiped. A side plot concerns a pedophile High Mage who creates an army of fanatically loyal urchin girls by means of clitoridectomy. The second book (and Return of the Crimson Guard) features the machinations of Mallick Rel, the very model of a depraved Roman aristocrat.

Memories of Ice has a nation of cannibals whose most venerated citizens are women who impregnated themselves with the death erections of their enemies. It's really profoundly silly, beyond anything Tairy Goodkind ever came up with.

Aside from that, most of the characters are no more outlandish than Goodkind's, although they're usually somewhat more depraved, more misogynistic, and tend to be shoehorned into a plot that's slightly more contrived.

Shadowthrone and Cotillion actually turn out to be some of the most benevolent characters in the story.

[Humble Asskicker]

Although reading Erikson for depth of character is like reading Goodkind for depth of...ahem...anything, I recall the only cartoony aspect was all the super-duper level-up magicking going on. And that is cartoony - don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

There are a lot of grey characters though. It doesn't make them worth reading, but they're at least not cartoons. Just carbon copies usually.

[jurble]

Malazan is fantasy land DBZ. And it's awesome. No seriously, the characters actually grow in power level as the series progresses by fighting, like sayans from DBZ. Malazan world works on belief sorta. The more people who believe you're badass, the more badass you become until you end up immortal/ascendant/a god.

[Lord of Rhinos]

The bad guys are frequently cartoony in Malazan. I liked the first book because there was some genuine ambiguity going on in the story but subsequent books tend to be more black and white. The second book deals with shapeshifters who kill anyone they meet and crazy desert dwellers who like to rape children, the third book is about cannibals who serve a god that wants to wipeout all life on the planet.

On the upside the two gods you just meant get a recon makeover that turns them into good guys.

Edit: to be fair some of the later books are a little more complex but in general the main badguys tend to be very black. Moral complexity comes more from the fact that most of the "good guys" don't come anywhere close to being white.

[kuenjato]

You could also see some characters as "cartoonish" if you come with prejudices. Malazan is a series about misdirection and reversals. In most cases impressions are there to be subverted later on, and then again.

Or, you could see a lot of those characters as "cartoonish" because, yeah, they are. Bad guys and good guys.

[Horza]

Whole things a cartoon.

[blackzoid]

I read the first 10 pages of Gardens of the Moon and I am wondering if this is the right book for me. What I really really liked about ASOIAF is that there are no cartoon bad guys in it. No character who is all bad and just for the sake of it. There are plenty of bad guys but they all have their real motifs for what they do. (OK except Gregor who is simply a psycho.) But here in Malazan right away I was treated to a scene that has two guys behaving like total cartoon bad guy characters. They seem to cherish being evil just for the kicks, one of the two especially. Please tell me these despite their initial appearance two turn out to be either actually rational guys motivated by normal concerns or an exception to the rule when it comes to Malazan characters.

I'm sorry but GRRM spoilt me. I don't think I want to read this series if it is going to have cartoony sort of antagonists. :(

No, there is some ambiquity in the series and the antagonists are not all cartoony but it won't be anything like GRRM. In fact it takes several books for certain antagonists ambiquity to be revealed at all. (Whether through retcons or seeing logical progression of their previous minor comments). Up to that point they will seem totally evil.

[fionwe1987]

I would take honest-to-god, completely black, totally EVIL bad guys any day over Erikson's retcon upon retcon, which is supposed to make his characters gray.

Example: Cottilion...

Spoiler

He begins by the pointless slaughter of a village, the possession of an innocent girl, etc. then goes on to cry when a bunch of children die, and is apparently a humane guy. BAH!

[Werthead]

I would take honest-to-god, completely black, totally EVIL bad guys any day over Erikson's retcon upon retcon, which is supposed to make his characters gray.

Example: Cottilion...

Spoiler

He begins by the pointless slaughter of a village, the possession of an innocent girl, etc. then goes on to cry when a bunch of children die, and is apparently a humane guy. BAH!

Wasn't that the Hounds in Itko Kan? I don't remember Cotillion doing that.

Agreed on character retcons though. Erikson tries to explain later that Tay isn't as much of an asshole as he comes across in Book 1, but it never really convinces.

[Doran Doran]

I'm sorry but GRRM spoilt me. I don't think I want to read this series if it is going to have cartoony sort of antagonists. :(

Why yes. The villains are cartoonish. So are the heroes. Or pretty much anybody in the series. I used to think Malazan was a Marval comics act, but someone on this board convinced me the game analogy is better. Most of the unlimited amounts of characters encountered are just world populating mobs, the central cast of a few hundred are the bosses, and your task, dear reader, is to collect enough letters to be able to access the final upgrade payoff of "closure".

[Zach H]

I would say cartoonish is definitely not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Malazan, but then again I'm an enough of an Erikson fan that what others see as lack of characterization I see as as an emphasis on atmosphere, imagery, and theme. When I read Malazan I tend to get the idea that the real antagonists of each of books are forces/ideas that transcend the characters who are throwing magic around trying to take down the protagonists. Thus the main antagonist of Midnight Tides is imperialism/greed, and for Bonehunters the idea of god, and for Reaper's Gale death/extinction in the name of purification, etc.

Mileages vary and all that, though.

[End of Disc One]

The main antagonist is far from a typical evil bad guy.

[Shryke]

I'd say Comicish, not Cartoonish.

Cartoonish, as the OP says, is evil for evil's sake. "Bwahaha, I am Skeletor. I am evil because my name sounds evil and I look evil and that's it."

Malazan is more Comicish. Characters have motivations and reasons and such, even if they can be a bit melodramatic. And you just have to accept the universality of uber-badassery that goes with the territory.

It's like Animal Farm for being awesome. "Everyone is Badass, some are just more badass then others".

[Lord of Rhinos]

Comicish is a good way to describe it.

That's an interesting way of looking at things, Zach H. In general, I think there's some truth to it, but that Erikson's focus on themes and motifs tends to be at the expense of plotting and character. It would be nice to see him get to the point where he could blend them together. As it is the tendency for characters to wax philosophical, spout soliloquies, and omniscient narrators to monologue about the universe, just seems clumsy. A really talented author could make his points by having theme and plot work together. Unfortunately, I think Erikson has loaded his series up with to much detritus of previous ideas and so he can't blend things together as well as I would like.

[AverageGuy]

The two guys at the beginning aren't really bad guys. They may actually be good guys. Their sanity's somewhat questionable, though.

As for cartoonish... eh, a lot of Malazan characters come off that way at first. However, later you'll find that they do have quasi-legitimate motivations. I still wouldn't call any of the characters deep.

[Han Shot First]

No one will ever be better Tolkien, but Martin comes pretty close in Storm, so that should tell you that Malazan is very far away from the quality of Song of Ice and Fire. If you're looking for a pretty crazy series with a thousand characters, then it's for you.