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Questions about Heraldry


82 replies to this topic

#1 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 05:51 PM

Ok this is a Mystery Knight question.

Spoiler


Is this House Trant? I ask because in the Citadel description of their arms, there is no tree? Did George change it?

Edited by The Pale Griffin, 16 May 2010 - 05:52 PM.


#2 Ran

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 06:51 PM

Maybe. GRRM has not touched on the Trants in a long time, really, and details may have changed. The one thing that makes me doubtful it's them, though, is the fact that he listed them as stormlords in our notes, but it seems unlikely that a stormlord's shield would be for sale in the riverlands. So I'm thinking it's some one else's arms. There are probably more than one houses with hanged men on their shields.

Of course, it's always possible he decided to relocate them to the riverlands, or somewhere else we don't know about yet. Those notes are ... well, they're more than ten years old now, I guess (I think he sent them to us in 1997 or 1998), and there's plenty of time for changes along the way.

#3 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 07:17 PM

Ok, so I will just hold off then putting that in outside of the summary until we get some clarification.

#4 Scafloc

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Posted 17 May 2010 - 04:53 AM

Hmm I still did not read the Mystery Knight. I really have to buy it.

#5 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 11:56 AM

New question concerning heraldry. The sigils that Jon sees ride past him during Stannis` attack on Mance`s camp is a seahorse (Velaryon) a field of birds (?) and a ring of flowers.

The field of birds I have no idea off the top of my head. The ring of flowers could either be Florents or Meadows? Any ideas?

#6 Evrach

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 12:16 PM

Probably Carons isn't it ? Lord Bryce was slained at the Blackwater and their lands confiscated, so they must still be with Stannis.

And the ring of flowers is certainly Florents, Florents are the more numerous of Stannis men, so statisticly, Jon might have seen their ring of flower

Edited by Evrach, 09 September 2010 - 12:18 PM.


#7 Guest_Other-in-Law_*

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 12:41 PM

Another unaccounted blazons was one Arya saw outside the Twins at the Red Wedding:

"She saw a half-dressed girl burst from a tent laughing, but the tent was pale blue, not grey like she'd thought, and the man wore a spotted treecat on his doublet, not a wolf."

We have a spotted treecat on mud-brown for house Myatt in the Westerlands, but they would have had no business being at the RW. Maybe this could be an unknown or unblazoned Riverlands house (like the Naylands or Deddings), but there really should be just as many hedge knights in the realm as noble houses...they should be the largest tier in the feudal pyramid (not counting the peasantry). No surprise if that was just some random nobody knight.

Edited by Other-in-Law, 09 September 2010 - 12:41 PM.


#8 Ran

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 12:41 PM

Caron for the birds, definitely. The ring of flowers, though... young Lord Meadows was Ser Cortnay Penrose's second in command, and is the one who surrendered Storm's End to Stannis. It seems to me that it's likelier the Meadows arms, even though it's true there should be a good number of Florent forces among Stannis's troops. With Lord Florent suffering a traitor's death and Ser Axell being a Queen's Man, I think that many of the Florent forces would have been among those taking up Stannis's R'hllorian banner to distance themselves from their executed lord. Which would mean those arms Jon notes are from House Meadows.

I'd also think he'd referenced the fox head inside the ring, if it were Florent, but maybe not.

#9 Evrach

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 01:57 PM

House meadows has a border of flower, not really a ring shape. But yes, Meadows is clearly a possibility. And for the fox head, it might not be recognizable from far away ?

#10 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 11:35 AM

House Caron...never thought of that one. Though it makes me wonder who`s leading the remnants of that house since Rolland Storm is at Dragonstone and only true-born members of the family are allowed to use the arms. Wonder if there`s a cousin we don`t know about.

As for the ring of flowers, since it could be either of them, I`ll list it under both houses as a possibility.

#11 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:23 PM

New question.

Outside of Maidenpool (Chapter 14) Brienne encounters a group of soldiers. They are from different houses.

The quote is
"She saw two centaurs, a thunderbolt, a blue beetle and a green arrow....Their serjeant had a peacock...."

Blue Beetle = Bettley
Green Arrow = Sarsfield
Peacock - Serrett
Thunderbolt - Leygood possibly?

now by two centaurs, does she mean two centaurs on the banner, or two men with centaurs on their livery? I lean more to the latter, because those single centaurs would make them Caswell men. Advice is welcome.

#12 The hairy bear

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 04:47 PM

Blue Beetle = Bettley
Green Arrow = Sarsfield
Peacock - Serrett
Thunderbolt - Leygood possibly?

now by two centaurs, does she mean two centaurs on the banner, or two men with centaurs on their livery? I lean more to the latter, because those single centaurs would make them Caswell men. Advice is welcome.

Thunderbolt could be Dondarrion too. But Leygood is more likely, I suppose.

And I don't think that we know of any other hous besides Caswell with centaurs in their arms. So I guess it's either two banners or Lord Caswell's second son.

#13 Timekeeper

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:47 PM

Thunderbolt could be Dondarrion too. But Leygood is more likely, I suppose.

And I don't think that we know of any other hous besides Caswell with centaurs in their arms. So I guess it's either two banners or Lord Caswell's second son.


Dondarrion is forked purple lightning, rather than the traditional single-bolt. Dondarrion's is distinctive enough that Brienne would probably have mentioned it with simply describing it as a "mere" thunderbolt.

Leygood is the only reference I see in the heraldry for thunderbolts, but they'd be an awfully long way from home in the Reach. I'm guessing either a minor scion seeking fortunes in the riverlands, or some hedge knight or freerider.

#14 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 01:08 PM

New question about heraldry. During my reread of AGOT I came across the listed heraldry of those attending the Hand's Tourney.

* the brindled boar - Crakehall
* the red ox - Prester
* the burning tree - Marbrand
* the triple spiral - Massey
* the purple unicorn - Brax
* the dancing maiden - Piper
* the horned owl - Mertyns

however the following I have no clue

* the blackadder
* the white ram

any help would be appreciated

#15 Scafloc

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 02:56 PM

White ram -> House Rambton?
Black adder -> House Wyl?

#16 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 11:57 AM

New question, though this is more `which region does it belong too?`

House Wells, currently listed as being a Northern house, though the two members to appear, Ser Theodan and Ser William are both knights and associated with peoples and organizations of the south while there has been no mention of them in the North.

I was wondering if maybe they are a Dornish house, since their last name has more in common with the Drinkwaters than with the Marshes, Condons and Slates of the north.

#17 Ran

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 04:13 PM

The northern location of the Wells is only from GRRM's notes, and it may well be that it's something he changed. Alternatively, there are two Wells families, one in the North, one in Dorne, who are (probably) entirely unrelated to one another.

#18 The Pale Griffin

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 05:33 PM

The northern location of the Wells is only from GRRM's notes, and it may well be that it's something he changed. Alternatively, there are two Wells families, one in the North, one in Dorne, who are (probably) entirely unrelated to one another.


So for the wiki, should I make William Wells of a different house or should I just add him to the northern one?

#19 Scafloc

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 07:02 AM

New issue:
For the Dornish houses a number of new versions of the coat of arms were uploaded.The new ones use a different shield but do not show the words of the house. Also the colours are less bright. To put it short I liked the older version more. I reverted the one of House Jordayne. Before reverting the others I would like to ask the opinions of others.

#20 Ser Ash the Red

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 08:44 AM

New issue:
For the Dornish houses a number of new versions of the coat of arms were uploaded.The new ones use a different shield but do not show the words of the house. Also the colours are less bright. To put it short I liked the older version more. I reverted the one of House Jordayne. Before reverting the others I would like to ask the opinions of others.

I uploaded the new Dornish coat of arms to make the important point that that Donish arms are round not escutcheon in shape. It should be noted that most of the arms on the site do not have the words of the house. You cannot see the word on most of the arms that have then in the small size that they are mainly used for in the character infobox. I know they are of lower resolution than the old ones but they really do not need higher resolution for thsi type of image. They were the only round Dornish arms I found that were freely use licensed for use. I do not understand the poor color quality.

yours,
ASHaber aka Ser Ash the Red