Questions about Heraldry
Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:50 AM
That way, each use can emphasize the round shape or the words as convenient without much of a drawback for other pages. An obvious example is that the Dornish Houses templace really could use a round coat of arms for House Martell, even if it is not up to the quality of the current escutcheon version.
It is only a couple dozen new images (and on the short end of file size at that) so I don't think it is too much of a resource expense to keep them along with the previous versions.
We already have a few redundant coats of arms if I am not mistaken. It is not a big deal, and it opens up the options.
The words banners are a nice touch, of course, as would supporters and the like also be. But they aren't always even possible, since we don't know of the motto of every house that has a known coat of arms. Sometimes it will be worth keeping them, sometimes it will not.
Posted 12 November 2011 - 01:10 PM
And last even if the quality is the same, which I do not think it is, I prefer coat of arms (or other pictures or text) that was made by users from our own wiki above copied pieces. Let me be clear about this for a lot of edits AND coat of arms I am (heavily) inspired by the what La guarde de Nuit has done. And sometimes when I did not think we could do better I copied things. But it is better for the over all quality of the wiki to give things your own twist. Using copies you get the same quality, by doing thing (coat of arms of articles) yourself you may be able to improve it.
Posted 12 November 2011 - 05:30 PM
Ash the Red aka ASHaber
Posted 12 November 2011 - 05:46 PM
As for the shape, if it's canonical. fine. But a couple of the arms (eg. Vaith) are going to be difficult to do in a round format.
And I think some of the ones that have bene used (like Yronwood) are not as good as the ones that were already there, despite the shape.
Posted 12 November 2011 - 07:31 PM
Ash the Red aka ASHaber
As for the shields that are used on Westeros, that is non canonical. Besides, according to the general page focus is on style, rather then accuracy:
The buckler shield of House Jordayne is less bright and with less contrast then escutcheon. I really think the escutcheon looks better. And again I like to state that in general it is better to create new material (maybe using exising models) then to copy existing pieces.
Posted 12 November 2011 - 09:31 PM
But I see what you mean. The two images can be checked at the File History page, although the size difference will be masked:
I still feel that it is worth keeping two sets of images. Even if the round dornish coats of arms are not canonical (and, barring explicit word from GRRM, I feel that the Westeros Heraldry section using round CoA's is as close to canonical as one could possibly get), they are still a welcome addition that may be used on occasion to remind people of that interesting peculiarity of Dorne. No reason not to keep them.
If anything, some of them will in fact work better as automatic templates for the 50-pixel thumbnails that are used in the character pages (less detail often means better-looking thumbnails, and the overall shape survives better than the details anyway).
Consider also that one of the many significant differences between real world blazons and computer avatar images is that blazons did and will have different implementations being used at the same time by various people, with varying degrees of detail, color brightness, contrast and the like. In a way it is thematically fitting to have some variety and even a slight inconsistency in presentation. So I'm not sure this is not a solution disguised as a problem after all.
Edited by LuisDantas, 12 November 2011 - 09:38 PM.
Posted 13 November 2011 - 05:31 AM
Edit: and now booth the escutcheon !?
I like the idea of using different images for the different purposes. I prefer the inclusion of the words in the coat of arms but when that image is used as a thumb it does not work. Too much detail like you said. La Guarde de Nuit also has separate images for thumbs.
As for the images on the articles of the houses: decide on a case by case basis? My suggestion is still that if the quality is the same then the self made version should take precedence over the copied ones.
For house Martell, house Yronwood, house Jordayne house Dayne and House Allyrion I prefer the escutcheon version. For house Gargalen I am less certain, though if we go for the buckler version we should display it in less pixels. House Vaith uses currently the escutcheonbut I think the version on La guarde de Nuit is better.
Edited by Scafloc, 13 November 2011 - 05:32 AM.
Posted 13 November 2011 - 05:37 AM
So, I'd certainly say that there's nothing wrong with the depiction of Dornish arms using round shields, and so far as George indicates, it may even be canonical. Certainly, there is no evidence that it isn't canonical, so George's remarks should be enough to incline us towards round.
That said, I don't have an issue with having both images around, since I suppose there'd be septons north of Dorne who might just use their standard heater shield for depicting Dornish arms.
Posted 13 November 2011 - 03:38 PM
Posted 15 November 2011 - 03:41 PM
Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:07 AM
So if nobody comes up with arguments against using the escutcheon of the Allyrion house before tomorrow 12:00 PM (GMT) then I am replacing the buckler version with the escutcheon.
Posted 16 November 2011 - 06:45 AM
So I'd vote to keep the current Allyrion shield, and hopefully someone will be prompted to create a replacement at some point that improves on it. We should strive for some consistency, even if it means we have to compromise on the artistic merits of the shield.
Posted 16 November 2011 - 08:46 AM
Posted 16 November 2011 - 11:30 AM
Two users of the wiki told me in the past that they wanted to make a coat of arms for a house that did not have one at that time. They wondered if it mattered if the shape would be slightly different from some of the ones that were used at that time. If I had told them that the current shape (that I used myself) was holy and no deviation was allowed they probably would not have made the coat of arms.
If we want to the wiki to grow and to increase the quality some differentiation and experimenting should be allowed. So if a different approach is better in quality we should allow it instead of keeping the lesser quality and hoping that someone will improve it.
Posted 16 November 2011 - 01:45 PM
on topic of which approach is the better for COA, I have no opinion.
Posted 16 November 2011 - 04:12 PM
Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:06 PM
Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:23 PM
To go further, my suggestion is that the escutcheon that everyone favors for non-Dornish arms should be developed into a template and made available to others, and then a suitable template should be made for the Dornish arms, and someone or someones can take on the task of generating new shields to replace the interim shields that are in place.
Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:42 PM
Stretching these different shapes over a standard template may distort the marshalling.
Posted 16 November 2011 - 05:44 PM
I was one of these and you're right. If you had gone Nazi on me I would have just made no contribution.