155 replies to this topic

[ICE CROW]

Danyl Stark, on 28 October 2011 - 01:40 PM, said:

The only quality that I like about Lord Tywin, good on him for destroying his enemies, if you don't stop them at the beginning, you're gonna get fucked over, as we see from the Freys & Boltons. I think that the Tullys would be perfectly within their rights to get rid of Walder, he's their sworn bannerman & should answer their call to arms immediately, for those who would say they are also sworn to the throne, them not letting Robb past had nothing to do with that (also, did they ever swear fealty to Inbred Joffrey Barathelannister).

Walder, never went to Kings Landing, to reaffirm his loyalty to the throne. So his first loyaty was to the Tully's in that case, which had sided with Robb and the North. The same way we saw, Northerners go to Winterfell, to reaffirm their loyalty to house Stark, when the war first started. Everyone was supposed to send representatives to reaffirm their loyalty to the Throne.

In my opinion, Hoster Tully, should have dealt with Walder Frey. When he didn't bother to show up, at the battle of the trident, till it was over.

[YoungGriffAgeonVI]

Ive got nothing against the Tullys as a house. But Catelyn and Lysas actions in the whole series are just plain stupid in my opinion. If there were ever two examples of how utterly useless and destructive a mothers love can be these two fit the bill. The biggest mistake Robb made wasnt falling in love with that Westerling girl. It was bringing his mother with him to war and letting her negotiate. This is really sexist, but is Catelyn on her period 24/7, the just absolutely ridiculous things she does cant be because shes stupid as hell can it?

[David Selig]

Catelyn is a genius compared to the two idiots Ned and Robb, they were the ones who screwed up the most for the Starks, but hey, let's blame the woman...

[Errant Bard]

YoungGriffAgeonVI, on 15 November 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

The biggest mistake Robb made wasnt falling in love with that Westerling girl. It was bringing his mother with him to war and letting her negotiate.

Hahaha. True enough, if he had not brought Catelyn, his little adventure would have stopped at the feet of the Twins, where he would have smashed his army, and where Tywin would have finished him. Jaime would be hostile, Brienne would be dead, Arya in worse straights (no serving Roose, see) or dead, Beric & co exterminated, Nymeria hunted, he would still have vultures in the North, Bran would never have been started on his journey to become the wizard saviour of humanity, Jon would be dead (no Summer rescuing him, see).

He'd still have Winterfell, there is that.


ANd even without that, every decision Catelyn made was the best to make considering what she knew, and the objectives she had.

[YoungGriffAgeonVI]

Errant Bard, on 20 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Hahaha. True enough, if he had not brought Catelyn, his little adventure would have stopped at the feet of the Twins, where he would have smashed his army, and where Tywin would have finished him. Jaime would be hostile, Brienne would be dead, Arya in worse straights (no serving Roose, see) or dead, Beric & co exterminated, Nymeria hunted, he would still have vultures in the North, Bran would never have been started on his journey to become the wizard saviour of humanity, Jon would be dead (no Summer rescuing him, see).

He'd still have Winterfell, there is that.


ANd even without that, every decision Catelyn made was the best to make considering what she knew, and the objectives she had.

I didn't realize Martin was on these forums under the name Errant Bard. Its pretty amazing how you know exactly what would have happened if Robb had not brought Catelyn along with him. That the only thing that could have happened was Robb getting smashed at the twins. Knowing Robb he wouldnt have even tried to negotiate without his mom there. He would have just attacked and gotten killed. Never mind the fact that he has the White Harbor and the Manderlys to sail him down the Narrow sea. It would have taken longer but against him recklessly charging against his foes it makes more sense. And Catelyn is not the deciding factor in all of the characters progressions. Jaime changed because of his sister and the hand he lost. Brienne may have not been there when Renly died if Catelyn wasnt. Arya would have been at Harrenhal anyway doesnt matter who was in charge. I dont see how anything Catelyn does affects Beric and company until they find her and Beric gives her the flame of life or whatever the hell the red priests do. If they hadnt hunted nymeria down already how would anything have changed if catelyn hadnt done what she did. As for Bran and Jon, i dont see how catelyn not being with robb would change the ironmen sacking winterfell which was when Bran started his journey in the first place.

Edited by YoungGriffAgeonVI, 21 November 2011 - 12:57 PM.

[Der Anarch]

They always lose in Westeros Total War, too (mainly because they are always invaded from the Vale by their supposed kin, but still).

[Errant Bard]

YoungGriffAgeonVI, on 21 November 2011 - 12:56 PM, said:

I didn't realize Martin was on these forums under the name Errant Bard. Its pretty amazing how you know exactly what would have happened if Robb had not brought Catelyn along with him.

Oh, right, because you're oh so innocent when you claim "if she hadn't been there, it wouldn't have been worse".

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And Catelyn is not the deciding factor in all of the characters progressions. Jaime changed because of his sister and the hand he lost.

Funny that, but if Robb get smashed at the Twins (or takes a sea route, whatever), then he doesn't capture Jaime, Jaime never travels with only Brienne in a war-torn Riverlands, he never talks to Catelyn, and he never loses his hand.

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Brienne may have not been there when Renly died if Catelyn wasnt.

Right, because Brienne was not among Renly's rainbow guard...

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Arya would have been at Harrenhal anyway doesnt matter who was in charge.

Yeah, silly me, without Roose and the Northmen, she would still have done a weasel soup, would still have had occasion to steal maps and horses, would still have gotten the iron coin instead of a third death. Of course.

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I dont see how anything Catelyn does affects Beric and company until they find her and Beric gives her the flame of life or whatever the hell the red priests do.

No war in the Riverlands=Beric alone against armies. Same for Nymeria.

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As for Bran and Jon, i dont see how catelyn not being with robb would change the ironmen sacking winterfell which was when Bran started his journey in the first place.

Remember Theon, the guy accompanying Robb? He's the one who sacks Winterfell later on. Robb doesn't go on with his invasion plan, Theon doesn't go the Iron Islands.

[GumpBrave]

Errant Bard, on 20 November 2011 - 01:25 PM, said:

Hahaha. True enough, if he had not brought Catelyn, his little adventure would have stopped at the feet of the Twins, where he would have smashed his army, and where Tywin would have finished him. Jaime would be hostile, Brienne would be dead, Arya in worse straights (no serving Roose, see) or dead, Beric & co exterminated, Nymeria hunted, he would still have vultures in the North, Bran would never have been started on his journey to become the wizard saviour of humanity, Jon would be dead (no Summer rescuing him, see).

He'd still have Winterfell, there is that.


ANd even without that, every decision Catelyn made was the best to make considering what she knew, and the objectives she had.

The key part of all of that is the objectives that she had. The fact that she had a certain logic in mind doesn't make it logical, just consistent.

[GumpBrave]

Errant Bard, on 21 November 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

Yeah, silly me, without Roose and the Northmen, she would still have done a weasel soup, would still have had occasion to steal maps and horses, would still have gotten the iron coin instead of a third death. Of course.

Remember Theon, the guy accompanying Robb? He's the one who sacks Winterfell later on. Robb doesn't go on with his invasion plan, Theon doesn't go the Iron Islands.

A few points. First, Arya unleashes a large amount of Northmen against a relatively vacant Harrenhal. There is at least a good chance that the amount of Northmen she unleashed could have taken a city lightly guarded, at night, with surprise on their side. Regardless of why she got there, there is at least a decent chance her ploy would have been successful regardless of Roose Bolton.

Secondly, Catelyn was right about Theon, but think about it from Robb's perspective. It would have actually been irresponsible to not trust Theon. Take that super-caution to it's conclusion, how do you trust anyone? That is absolutely not how you win that battle. Theon is a an amoral fuck who places his confusead conception of self-interest above all else to the point of throwing all logic out the window. How do you anticipate that, least of all from someone you basically grew up with who was one of the first to swear allegiance to the King of the North. You absolutely cannot fault Robb for that.

The question is do you trust Theon. Robb absolutely had to. At that point you look at how to gain a toehold of support on the Iron Islands. Theon provides that leverage. Robb did the right thing. Theon was the only chance to secure the Iron Islands (whose navy would have made a siege of King's Landing very possible) and Robb acted accordingly.

[David Selig]

The dumb part was not that Robb should have not trusted Theon - it was releasing him without first getting any kind of a deal with his father, who was the one in charge of the Iron Islands, was known to hate the Starks for Ned's part in crushing his rebellion, and who sent Theon to fight against the North against his wishes at the time. Robb gave up the important hostage he had for basically nothing, without even having any kind of preliminary deal with Balon.

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Knowing Robb he wouldnt have even tried to negotiate without his mom there. He would have just attacked and gotten killed. Never mind the fact that he has the White Harbor and the Manderlys to sail him down the Narrow sea. It would have taken longer but against him recklessly charging against his foes it makes more sense.

What? Since when Manderly have fleet big enough to transport Robb's army? And even if he had, where would they go by sea?

Edited by David Selig, 22 November 2011 - 06:13 AM.

[Magjee]

Holster Tully is at deaths door, so he gets a pass.

Edmure's defense plan worked, but messed up the trap Rob and the Blackfish set.
I think they should have been more clear with him. It had been months and he saw an opportunity and went for it.
Kind of both at fault.

Cat - In the PoV chapters she always thinks she is a clever girl. It worked well with the Freys when she negotiated the deal, but she really messed up by trusting Littlefinger and taking Tyrion captive. Letting Jamie loose was just insanity and now all the killings as Lady Stoneheart, shes completely lost it.

[Blue Rose Direwolf]

I haven't read all of the posts on this thread so I don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but the biggest mistake any of the Tullys made was when Hoster Tully allowed Walder Frey's disloyalty to go unpunished. The Freys were supposed to be loyal bannerman to the Tullys but routinely demonstrated that they weren't. In the past when Walder deliberately had his men show up late for battle, thereby becoming "The Late Lord Frey", Hoster should have severely punished him, if not killed him for that. I mean, imagine having a part of your army deliberately not show up because they're not truly loyal to you, and allowing that insubordination to continue.

If Hoster had done something severe to Walder Frey regarding that, it would have shown the Freys that betrayal would not be tolerated. Instead Hoster just allowed Walder Freys insolent behaviour to continue and by example to teach it to the rest of the Freys too.

It was bad leadership and bad judgement on Hoster's part and Robb and Catelyn paid for it, not just in the Red Wedding but before the whispering wood when Walder Frey demanded that Robb Stark marry one of his daughters. As a bannerman to Riverrun, he should have yeilded to House Tully's order to allow Robb's men through but instead Walder demanded a marriage and Robb had to agree.

If it hadn't been for Robb having to promise that marriage, things wouldn't have gone so badly for him, and it was all Hoster's fault for allowing disloyal bannerman to continue in their seat of power.

Edited by Blue Rose Direwolf, 07 February 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

Lucky Shield, on 05 July 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

I'd also kill Little Walder cause he's a dumbass




And there you have it  [img]http://asoiaf.wester...gif[/img]  what do you think?

hahahaha couldn't stop laughing at this. my roommate asked what I thought of him and that was my exact response.

[Howling Mad]

ICE CROW, on 28 October 2011 - 08:40 PM, said:

In my opinion, Hoster Tully, should have dealt with Walder Frey. When he didn't bother to show up, at the battle of the trident, till it was over.

[DornishKnight]

Der Anarch, on 21 November 2011 - 01:01 PM, said:

They always lose in Westeros Total War, too (mainly because they are always invaded from the Vale by their supposed kin, but still).

LOL, true that.  I was playing as the Starks and was crushing the Lannisters when the Arryns ruined the Tullys.  Acting completely out of character for Robb, I made peace with the Arryns (the Tullys were long gone) after the Westerlands were mine.
Playing as Stannis is the most fun. You start with next to nothing and work your way up. It's awesome.

[Stark@heart]

Finally, I've found others who share my view.  Those damn Tulleys.  Never thought to indite old man Hoster too. But no doubt, if he'd even had a little backbone, Old Man Walder won't have dared to deny Robb's crossing to begin with.

Then Catelyn.  Believing her stupid sister and risking the lives of all the Starks by taking Tyrion hostage.  How could she have thought things wouldn't go extremely bad for her husband and children in Kings Landing under the thumb or the dwarfs sister?

May I point out that it was also Catelyn who told Robb to leave Bolton to guard the rear, thereby leaving him open to plot with Tywin.

She was crazy before the events of the Red Wedding.  Turning Jamie Lanniester loose with only a promise, insane!   Just as insane as the marriage pact she made.  If Walder had the nerve to suggest a wedding between Robb & one of his own, Catelyn should have shot it down based on the fact that Robb had a war to fight and any marriage of his should be an act of state, worth far more that a trip across the damn river.  Stupid bitchs.  Her and Edmure both.   Why oh why, could he not just follow directions.  Hold the castle.  Not a hard command to understand and fulfill.  He'd already brought all of his "smallfolk" inside the castle walls so there was no reason for him to ride out other than ego.  Damn him to the Seven Hells too.

Thanks for letting me vent.  Hardly anyone wants to see that it was the Tully marriage that led to the Starks downfall.   Damn Tullys.

[Stark@heart]

DornishKnight, on 01 March 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

LOL, true that.  I was playing as the Starks and was crushing the Lannisters when the Arryns ruined the Tullys.  Acting completely out of character for Robb, I made peace with the Arryns (the Tullys were long gone) after the Westerlands were mine.
Playing as Stannis is the most fun. You start with next to nothing and work your way up. It's awesome.

What game are you playing?

[David Selig]

The biggest Robb fanboys remain hilarious with their excuses for his blunders.

[DornishKnight]

Stark@heart, on 01 March 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

What game are you playing?

Westeros Total War.  It's a free mod for Medieval 2 Total War.

[Roberto Manuel Alves Lopes]

David Selig, on 01 March 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

The biggest Robb fanboys remain hilarious with their excuses for his blunders.

At his age, he achieved a lot more than many ever had.
That is something that can't be denied.