155 replies to this topic

[Lizaveta Martell]

the whole It Was Illegal for Cat to Seize Tyrion thing is super confusing to me.  Who else was going to do it? It is clear from the story that the Great Lords hold trials in the King's name (Ned executes deserter in Robert's name as Lord of Winterfell, Lysa's trial of Tyrion) and it is also clear that KL did not have a national police force with warrants and surveillance like the FBI to track down Tyrion if he had been formally accused.  All this talk of jurisdiction is also unnecessarily US centric.  There is no reason to assume that Westerosi justice has the rigid system of geographic delineation of jurisdiction that we have in our federal system.  Medieval systems would not have been as rigid, particularly with the weak central government at KL.  

As for why Cat seized Tyrion, she needed to 1) secure him so he didn't go around telling everyone about her trip south-it was a secret, what was she supposed to do? and 2) she had every reason to think that he was responsible.  Again, it would be applying modern notions about criminal justice to say that she should have worked out he was innocent by some other manner.  There is no police force, there was no criminal procedure, hell, there don't seem to be any firm laws in the whole country.  Also, Robert was a total failure as king, why anyone would expect him to think rationally about anything is mind boggling to me.  Yes, it would have been quite simple to reveal LF's double crossing with a trial in KL.  That would involve making it to KL without Tywin Lannister killing everyone, Robert giving a shit rather than just releasing Tyrion and dismissing Ned again, LF not killing Tyrion or Cat or Ned or all of them, LF not fleeing to Essos, etc. How would that seem like a better option than going to your closer, heavily fortified, legally allowed to hold trial, information having sister and figuring it out there?

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

Lizaveta Martell, on 26 March 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

the whole It Was Illegal for Cat to Seize Tyrion thing is super confusing to me.  Who else was going to do it? It is clear from the story that the Great Lords hold trials in the King's name (Ned executes deserter in Robert's name as Lord of Winterfell, Lysa's trial of Tyrion) and it is also clear that KL did not have a national police force with warrants and surveillance like the FBI to track down Tyrion if he had been formally accused.  All this talk of jurisdiction is also unnecessarily US centric.  There is no reason to assume that Westerosi justice has the rigid system of geographic delineation of jurisdiction that we have in our federal system.  Medieval systems would not have been as rigid, particularly with the weak central government at KL.  

As for why Cat seized Tyrion, she needed to 1) secure him so he didn't go around telling everyone about her trip south-it was a secret, what was she supposed to do? and 2) she had every reason to think that he was responsible.  Again, it would be applying modern notions about criminal justice to say that she should have worked out he was innocent by some other manner.  There is no police force, there was no criminal procedure, hell, there don't seem to be any firm laws in the whole country.  Also, Robert was a total failure as king, why anyone would expect him to think rationally about anything is mind boggling to me.  Yes, it would have been quite simple to reveal LF's double crossing with a trial in KL.  That would involve making it to KL without Tywin Lannister killing everyone, Robert giving a shit rather than just releasing Tyrion and dismissing Ned again, LF not killing Tyrion or Cat or Ned or all of them, LF not fleeing to Essos, etc. How would that seem like a better option than going to your closer, heavily fortified, legally allowed to hold trial, information having sister and figuring it out there?

She couldn't have advertised more about her trip by kidnapping a Son of a great lord in a bar.
Catelyn had no proof, yes no proof at all that Tyrion was in anyway involved in this, she just had the word of an asshole and trusted him beyond doubt when at first she herself was suspicious of him.

Ned beheaded a man who was supposed to be his subject, while Tyrion was the son(possibly heir) of  the greatest lord of the seven kingdoms, hence was subject to the lord of Westerlands not to the North, and was kidnapped in Riverlands , which again doesn't fall under the Northmen's rule. There maybe no laws but at least this much must be clear to each and every educated offspring of a great lord.  Lady Stark was not only doing something rash but was also endangering her brother and father by giving offense to the strongest kingdom of the seven as Riverlands had no natural defenses.

Catelyn was also being an hypocrite as she didn't think that the proof was good enough to present in front of the king and yet she kidnapped Tyrion without hesitation .


@ the topic.
Yes, The Tullys were incredibly stupid and one may wonder why they relied completely on the Freys for the crossing and didn't even try to build one of their own. And Lysa Tully has to be the stupidest of all the characters we have seen now closely followed by Edmure. . They are probably the most incompetent of all the great houses seeing that Stannis is a skilled commander and also did well on the small council and Renly was a good diplomat.

Edited by Lord Tywin's Poop, 26 March 2012 - 05:09 AM.

[The hairy bear]

Lord Tywin, on 26 March 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

The Tullys were incredibly stupid and one may wonder why they relied completely on the Freys for the crossing and didn't even try to build one of their own.

You do not seem to understand how feudal relations worked. The Tullys can't just "expropiate" lands belonging to the Freys and build a bridge so they can't collect their toll. The rest of their bannermen would revolt en masse, and they wouldn't last much as overlords. The rule of a lord is a delicate balance and you need a very good excuse to take away privileges from your subjects.

And in any case, the strategic importance of the twins is not as important as you seem to make it. The situation at the end of AGOT was exceptional, since Robb relied on speed and secrecy to carry out his plan, Tywin was blocking the crossings at the South, and the overflowing rivers prevented the use of fords.

Lord Tywin, on 26 March 2012 - 04:04 AM, said:

And Lysa Tully has to be the stupidest of all the characters we have seen now closely followed by Edmure. .

Would you care to provide some reasoning to back your assertions? That would allow for some actual discussion.

[Lord Tywin's Poop]

The hairy bear, on 26 March 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

You do not seem to understand how feudal relations worked. The Tullys can't just "expropiate" lands belonging to the Freys and build a bridge so they can't collect their toll. The rest of their bannermen would revolt en masse, and they wouldn't last much as overlords. The rule of a lord is a delicate balance and you need a very good excuse to take away privileges from your subjects.

And in any case, the strategic importance of the twins is not as important as you seem to make it. The situation at the end of AGOT was exceptional, since Robb relied on speed and secrecy to carry out his plan, Tywin was blocking the crossings at the South, and the overflowing rivers prevented the use of fords.


Would you care to provide some reasoning to back your assertions? That would allow for some actual discussion.

Did I say that Tullys should seize Frey lands? Don't attack the strawmen.
The Freys had complete monopoly over the crossing ,Tullys never tried to create an alternative crossing that's what I meant.


Read the OP, I agree to what he says about Lysa.  As for Edmure he was hungry for approval and in general a big glory hunter, don't forget that by spreading the "news" that Jaime escaped by himself he put Sansa in danger.

[Castel]

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The Freys had complete monopoly over the crossing ,Tullys never tried to create an alternative crossing that's what I meant.

The realm has been pretty peaceful for a while, they probably didn't need it. Hell, maybe the Freys before Walder were nicer. And that's even without considering the cost and time such a project would take. You don't need it ninety percent of the time, and when you do it's too late to start building. For that matter, how useful would that thing be anyway? I always thought that Robb's need was special. RR lay on three river banks I doubt they needed it.

Edited by Castel, 17 April 2012 - 11:31 AM.

[David Selig]

The Freys built their bridge over 3 generations, so building an alternative wouldve been a huge undertaking.

The Crossing at the Twins is not all that strategically important anyway, except in rare special circumstances which Robb's army faced.

[Wyman_Manderly]

My 0.2 cents - I don't think it was particularly anyone's fault, but a series of stupid actions which worked together to make the current mess. Though I think some have a greater share of responsibility than the others.

In the beginning, the Starks don't like the Lannisters but no one is expecting a betrayal from them. There was no evidence of Lannister involvement with the death of John Arryn.

So here is how it starts -

1)  Lysa falling into Littlefinger's trap by poisoning her husband and sending the letter to Cat in Winterfell. This is actually what planted the seed of suspicion in both Ned and Cat's minds. They were expecting a Lannister betrayal and trying to save the King. Had not been the case, Bran's fall and the dagger might not have been enough to make them so confidently point the finger towards the Lannisters.  

so score,
Lannisters - 0, Tully - 1, Stark - 0



2) After DwD, we know for a fact that the Lannisters did not poison Arryn, but Pycelle may have acted on Cersei's behalf to make sure that he did not survive(by sending Arryn's maester away) because Arryn had discovered her litle secret. However, we really don't know anything that indicates that they were plotting anything against the King in particular. They did not go to Winterfell with a plan to kill Bran either. If Bran told everyone what he saw, it would have meant both Jaime and Cersei's heads. Jaime acted in desperation. Both Lannister actions stemmed from their efforts of hiding the Crown Prince's true father.

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 1, Stark - 0



3)  Catelyn seizing Tyrion. Lets look at the scenario -
They suspect the Lannisters are plotting against the King
They suspect the Lannisters tried to kill their son
Catelyn went to KL to warn Ned, but knew that secrecy was a must since this means Ned was in danger
She happens to see Tyrion in an inn close to her father's castle.
Instead of using the excuse of seeing her sick father, she decides to seize Tyrion knowing that the Lannisters will send their army after her. In what situation exactly did she think that  will put Ned into in front of the King? Breaking the King's peace and starting a war? And what about Ned being in danger? How does that improve the situation? If she wanted Justice, she needed to bring him to the King, not to Lysa since that left Tywin no choice but to march. Again, what was she thinking?

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 2, Stark - 0
(I really think Tully's should get a bonus for this)



4) What was Ned thinking giving Cersei the choice to flee before he secured his own children? Could he have not had that talk (if he absolutely had to) after he sent the girls away? By that point he knew that the Lannisters were so desperate to hide it that they even attempted to kill his son.... What made him so sure that this time she will act differently? He probably underestimated her for being a woman, and thought with Jaime gone, she will have no control over anything.

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 2, Stark - 1



5) Argh.. Sansa.. she is not even worth the rant. She is as much a Tully as a Stark ..

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 3, Stark - 2



6) Ned trusting Little Finger. If you don't have the swords, don't wage a war !

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 3, Stark - 3



7) Lysa attempting to kill Tyrion and letting him escape in the deal. A living Tyrion would have been a valuable hostage. Where a dead/fled Tyrion meant a war where Ned and Cat's two daughters were hostages and they had none. If the Starks held both Tyrion and Jaime during the war, Lord Tywin would have been completely devastated and the outcome might have been different. It would have been a lot easier to come to terms then.

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 4, Stark - 3



8) Catelyn letting Jaime go. Again... WHAT  THE  FUCK .. what really changed in between he pushed Bran off the tower, his son chopped Ned's head off and his sister/lover held 'two' of her daugters captive? She gave away the only chance of a hostage trade in hopes of .... the "honor" of a Lannister ? I will never understand that.

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 5, Stark - 3
(But I think the Tully's deserve anothor bonus here)



9) Rob marrying a "not Frey" girl was stupid, but he was 16 (or 15?)... and the Frey's would not have had the courage to move against him if they had not had the backing of Roose Bolton, who change sides once he saw three stupid moves in a row from the Starks (letting Jaime go, Marrying whatsherface, beheading Karstark).

So score,
Lannisters - 1, Tully - 5, Stark - 4




So... I think Tully's best everyone else when it comes to making stupid choices. Specially Hoster's two daughters. And if you give them the 2 bonus points, they are practically the queens of bad decisions with the score ending up being -

Lannisters - 1, Tully - 7, Stark - 4

Edited by Wyman_Manderly, 19 April 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[mutiny! he cried]

don't know if it's been mentioned yet but Catelyn also talks Ned into accepting being Robert's Hand. He tells her his place is there, KL is a pit or nest of adders and that he will refuse Robert, Robert will be mad for about a week, then they will be laughing again. Catelyn tells him he must go to KL, if he doesn't Robert might think Ned opposes him, plus their daughter will eventually be queen and father a king.....oh and i'm kicking Jon out when you leave, too

Edited by mutiny! he cried, 24 April 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[mutiny! he cried]

Errant Bard, on 31 July 2010 - 01:17 PM, said:

No. You see, the problem with going up the causality chain is that it does not make sense to stop at one point instead of another, except for prejudice. I can say as well that it was Robb not wanting to exchange Jaime that started everything. Or was it Tyrion vowing he would exchange Sansa for Jaime? Maybe Jaime actually killing Kastarks sons? No, probably Kastark going to war with his sons thinking it's play and nothing would happen to them. Or Robb weakening his own side by forgiving Catelyn when he ought to have punished her to appease the Kastarks? hmmmm

So being gay isn't being normal? And you give homosexuality as reason for (paraphrasing) "HATING the tullys because they are idiots"? You're digging your grave deeper here.

no, it started when Catelyn talked Ned into being Hand and going to KL.

[A wilding]

mutiny! he cried, on 24 April 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

no, it started when Catelyn talked Ned into being Hand and going to KL.

But why stop at that arbitrary point?

Why not when Ned decided to take Catelyn's advice? Or when Lysa sent the message that triggered Ned's decision? Or when Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn? Or when Pycelle ensured that he died? Or when Jaime fathered Joffrey? Or when Jon Arryn advised Robert to marry Cersei? Or when Robert took that advice? Or when Aerys called for Robert and Ned's heads? Or when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna?

[mutiny! he cried]

A wilding, on 27 April 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

But why stop at that arbitrary point?

Why not when Ned decided to take Catelyn's advice? Or when Lysa sent the message that triggered Ned's decision? Or when Lysa poisoned Jon Arryn? Or when Pycelle ensured that he died? Or when Jaime fathered Joffrey? Or when Jon Arryn advised Robert to marry Cersei? Or when Robert took that advice? Or when Aerys called for Robert and Ned's heads? Or when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna?

because robb wouldn't have gone to war if his father wasn't killed. if catelyn hadn't talked ned into going to king's landing he would have stayed in winterfell and lived so therefor robb would never have started a war to avenge his father's death since he wouldn't be dead.

Edited by mutiny! he cried, 04 May 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[David Selig]

Ned was a big boy, it was his decision, so it was his fault. Besides, after Bran's fall Cat asked him to stay at Winterfell and he refused.

[kwvapor]

Mayhaps it all started... with the whispers of LF and  then the murder of Jon Aryn by his wife and then the letters sent to WF with false information.  This made Cat and Ned unite on becoming King's Hand.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

you can't blame the tullys for killing rob, the bastard of bolton had put winterfell to the touch with a garrison of dreadfort men,

"and now my sweet prince, there was a woman promised me, if I brought two hundred men.  Well, i brought three times as many, and no green boys nor fieldhands, neither, but my father's own garrison."

Roose Bolton's own Dreadfort garrison would not rise for the Bastard Ramsay Snow, but if there were commanded to do so by their own lord that would make more sense.  It means that Roose Bolton has already betrayed Robb Stark in favor of Tywin Lannister, you might remember tyrion coming in on Lord Tywin just as he was finishing a letter,

"some battles are won with swords and spears, others with quills and raves."

Tywin was already communicating with Roose who agrees to betray Robb, which is why he let his bastard take his dreadfort garrison to Winterfell, so by the time Jaime Lannister ends up at Harrenhall, Roose is already complicit in his betrayal, which is why he sends Jaime on to king's landing, under the stipulation that he assure Lord Tywin that Roose had nothing to do with Jaime's sword hand being cut off, that was all the work of the Bloody Mummers, oops, i mean, the Brave Companions.  

Then Roose is the one at the Red Wedding who stabs Robb through the heart.

A man in dark armor and pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb.  "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."  He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

The sigil of House Bolton is the flayed man, Roose wore a pink cloak spotted with blood, he is seen waring it again at the Wedding of his Bastard to the false Arya Stark at the ruins of Winterfell in A Dance with Dragons, and the line "jaime Lannister sends his regards" is a definite reference to the parley he had with Jaime at Harrenhall prior to the Red Wedding, even though Jsime had nothing to do specifically with Roose's betrayal.  

It's that dam Roose Bolton and his bastard we should all blame, not the Tullys

[kwvapor]

STANN1SBARATHEON, on 06 May 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

you can't blame the tullys for killing rob, the bastard of bolton had put winterfell to the touch with a garrison of dreadfort men,

Tywin was already communicating with Roose who agrees to betray Robb, which is why he let his bastard take his dreadfort garrison to Winterfell, so by the time Jaime Lannister ends up at Harrenhall, Roose is already complicit in his betrayal, which is why he sends Jaime on to king's landing, under the stipulation that he assure Lord Tywin that Roose had nothing to do with Jaime's sword hand being cut off, that was all the work of the Bloody Mummers, oops, i mean, the Brave Companions.  

Then Roose is the one at the Red Wedding who stabs Robb through the heart.

A man in dark armor and pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb.  "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."  He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted.

The sigil of House Bolton is the flayed man, Roose wore a pink cloak spotted with blood, he is seen waring it again at the Wedding of his Bastard to the false Arya Stark at the ruins of Winterfell in A Dance with Dragons, and the line "jaime Lannister sends his regards" is a definite reference to the parley he had with Jaime at Harrenhall prior to the Red Wedding, even though Jsime had nothing to do specifically with Roose's betrayal.  

It's that dam Roose Bolton and his bastard we should all blame, not the Tullys

Nice, I didn't catch the specific person who killed King Robb.  So who is cursed for the violations of guest rights?  Bolton and Freys or...?

[Talleyrand]

Lizaveta Martell, on 26 March 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:

the whole It Was Illegal for Cat to Seize Tyrion thing is super confusing to me.  Who else was going to do it? It is clear from the story that the Great Lords hold trials in the King's name (Ned executes deserter in Robert's name as Lord of Winterfell, Lysa's trial of Tyrion) and it is also clear that KL did not have a national police force with warrants and surveillance like the FBI to track down Tyrion if he had been formally accused.  All this talk of jurisdiction is also unnecessarily US centric.  There is no reason to assume that Westerosi justice has the rigid system of geographic delineation of jurisdiction that we have in our federal system.  Medieval systems would not have been as rigid, particularly with the weak central government at KL.  

Medieval Systems were even more rigid. It isn't some sort of US centric argument its the fact that its someone elses land and as such she had no power there. Its a huge insult to whoever the land belongs to to go about arresting people on it. Its similar if the French police arrested a criminal in Switzerland. Ned executes the deserter because its on his land. There is some sort of nation wide thing. Robert says he wants someone arrested and sends out his minions, no matter where they are in Westeros. He's the King, he's the only one who has the power to do that everywhere.

[Darth Pipes]

The Freys were wrong in not sending their forces to join Hoster during Robert's Rebellion.  Lord Walder hedged his bets but at least in the end they didn't join up with the Iron Thrones against the Tullys.  The same can't be said for other Tully bannermen like House Darry, House Ryger, and House Mooton.  If Hoster wanted to punish the Freys for not showing up in time, then he better punish the bannermen who actually fought against him during the war.

[mutiny! he cried]

David Selig, on 04 May 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Ned was a big boy, it was his decision, so it was his fault. Besides, after Bran's fall Cat asked him to stay at Winterfell and he refused.

i've been rereading the series, haven't gotten to bran's fall yet but this is what i was referring to
from a catelyn pov chapter

"I will refuse him." Ned said as he turned back to her. His eyes were haunted, his voice thick with doubt.
Catelyn sat up in the bed. "You cannot. You must not."
"My duties are here in the north. I have no wish to be Robert's Hand."
"He will not understand that. He is a king now, and kings are not like other men. If you refuse him, he will wonder why, and sooner or later he will begin to suspect that you oppose him. Can't you see the danger that would put us in?"
Ned shook his head, refusing to believe. "Robert would never harm me or any of mine. We were closer than brothers. He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"
"You knew the man," she said. "The King is a stranger to you." Catelyn remembered the direwolf dead in the snow, the broken antler lodged deep in her throat. She had to make him see. "Pride is everything to a king, my lord. Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face."
"Honors?" Ned laughed bitterly.
"In his eyes, yes." she said
"And in yours?"
"And in mine," she blazed, angry now. Why couldn't he see? "He offers his own son in marriage to our daughter, what else would you call that? Sansa might someday be queen, her sons could rule from the Wall to the mountains of Dorne. What is so wrong with that?"
"Gods, Catelyn, Sansa is only eleven," Ned said. "And Joffrey....Joffrey is...."
She finished for him ".... crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

then Maester Luwin comes in with the note from Catelyn's sister saying her husband was murdered by the Lannisters. Catelyn tells Ned what the note said, he asks murdered by whom? the lannisters, by the queen, Ned says she is sick with grief and doesn't know what she's saying.

"She knows," Catelyn said. "Lysa is impulsive, yes, but this message was carefully planned, cleverly hidden. She knew it meant death if her letter fell into the wrong hands. To risk so much, she must have had more than mere suspicion." Catelyn looked to her husband. "Now we truly have no choice. You must be Robert's Hand. You must go south with him and learn the truth."
She saw at once that Ned had reached a very different conclusion. "The only truths I know are here. The south is a nest of adders I would do better to avoid."
Luwin plucked at his chain collar where it had chafed the soft skin of his throat. "The Hand of the King has great power, my lord. Power to find the truth of Lord Arryn's death, to bring his killers to the king's justice. Power to protect Lady Arryn and her son, if the worst be true."
Ned glanced helplessly around the bedchamber. Catelyn's heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him inher armsjust then. First the victory must be won, for her children's sake. "You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?"
"The Others take both of you," Ned muttered darkly. He turned away from them and went to the window.She did not speak,nor did the maester. They waited, quiet, while Eddard Stark said a silent farewell to the home he loved. When he turned away from the window at last, his voice was tired and full of melancholy, and moisture glittered faintly in the corners of his eyes. "My father went south once, to answer the summons of a king. He never came home again."
"A different time," Maester Luwin said. "A different king."
"Yes" Ned said dully. He seated himself in a chair by the hearth. "Catelyn, you shall stay here in Winterfell."

I do not recall her begging him to stay after Bran fell but i still see it as the Tully's fault. Catelyn kept trying to talk him into going south and her sister's letter of lies sealed it, without those two Tully women and their nagging Ned would have stayed in the north in Winterfell.

and we all know now how truthful her letter was which she sent at Little Finger's behest. He had to h.ave known by then that Robert was picking Ned to be his Hand. So, in a roundabout way i guess you could say he killed Ned (especially since he was the one who betrayed him when he was seized by the Night;s Watch) but he could not have done it without Lysa Tully Arryn sending the letter and without Catelyn talking him into it since even after the letter he seemed even more convinced he should stay at Winterfell.

Edited by mutiny! he cried, 11 May 2012 - 09:43 AM.

[Biglose]

Do not know even where to start...

Errant Bard, on 30 July 2010 - 01:27 AM, said:

I think I can play this game: If there's a House that i HATE, its the Starks- i mean- they're bloody idiots! First time i read the books, i liked them, i pitied because they were a little dim but well meaning and I pitied the kids for being left alone in the world but thinking about it I realised that they actually really did kill their own men and ruin their own house.

There are TWO action which were stupid and part of the "main story". You named one.

Quote

1. They are always being manipulated by the Littlefinger, I mean he's but one guy but just don't trust him and he won't be any trouble anymore. And he himself warns them.

There is at no point any clue for them not to believe him. Thats just heinsight. They do not trust him totally, but he delivers information, which seems to be good.

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2. The -ever judging Ned- tells Cersei of his plans, moves before Arya or Sansa are in security, refuses Renly's help but asks Petyr's, forcing his own execution - losing everyone, including his own daughters - and making Robb and Cat even weaker then they were.

That was a stupid action. But he wanted to give her a chance to save her children. And that the Kind would be killed on the hunt, was not really a thing to know...
So yes, it would be smarter and more secure to move against them with extream predjudice. But you should not forget, that this would have ended up in propably 3 children killed.

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3. Robb is a backstabbing fool (at least he knows it) but his need to impress his Bannermen is what makes him crown himself king in the North, a totally idiotic gesture which antagonised absolutely everyone else and earned him a leech-curse from Stannis/melisandre. Also, his need to impress his mother pushes him to forgive Cat and that's the cause for the Kastark's betrayal, in turn.

King of the North he need to be in order to rally troops. And at the point of Kastark's betrayal, everything had gone south already...

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4. Lyanna... Oh my god have i ever hated someone more then Lyanna? Bimbo gets infatuated with a guitar harp douche, so she skips town, ignites a civil war, and has the gall to make his brother promise something that we can infer will ruin his life in the future, married life included, if he doesn't get a perfect and loving wife. (which, luckily he almost gets, but that's not enough to prevent yet another war from rising out of this mess miss oh so perfect Lyanna created)

Which has not much do do with everything happening afterwards. And again, the civil war would probably have come either way. Most of the people were fed up with the mad king. (Why do you suppose he had this name?)

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5. Brandon is a moron, running to the Red Keep with sword drawn, forcing his father to come try to deliver him, frightening Aerys into asking the heads of Ned and all those related to him. And killing himself in the end.

Alright, true.

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6. Bran. "But I never fall!" Well now you do, dumbass. Way to start a war. If you had not overestimated your climbing, or not been curious enough to overtax your skills, Nothing would have happened. But then again, if you had the guts to remember what you saw, it would likely not have happened either. Also, taking over Hodor by force and likely not stopping there isn't going to make you more sympathetic.

This is one of this mistakes a lot of people make, judging situations. The chance they notice him, the chance he does not get away is probably less than 5%.
And running to Kind Rob and telling would have been the ONE THING SAVING HIS FAMILY. (Alone telling his parents would have made a lot of a differance)
But the story would have ended. (If he did not do it, everything would have happened as it did. His father would still be the Hand of the King and he would still get involved in the Cersai fucking her brother thing.)
Having the guts to remember. I have really to shake my head here. I mean, yeah the story would have been over so he did not. Yeah, thats the problem beeing a fictional character.

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8. Sansa. Oh Sansa. It's so easy to riff on her. Willful stupidity doesn't even begin to cover it. Blaming Arya for Lady's death? check. Forcing herself to believe Joffrey is a perfect prince even after the Ruby Ford? check. Trusting Cersei after she orders Lady killed? check. Helping Ned to the grave the man had already dug for himself? Check. Well, I don't need to really spit vitriol here, as I think it has already been said countless times*

Yeah, because she had MILLIONS of choices. What should she have done? She could have told the truth about lady, would have ended up in the same spot. But it would have been probably even worse.

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9. Arya. Wanted to suicide alongside her mother. Good grief. How about doing something else than running? Like asking Jaqen to kill Tywin? No, of course, killing an understeward is much better.

Yeah, because Jaqen can't fail...

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10. Jon. Was the one who asked to be sent to the Night's Watch. How moronic is that? Maybe Winterfell would not have fallen to Ramsay with him around. His plot coupons prove to be toxic to everyone of some skill around him, as Jeor Mormont, Mance Rayder, Qorin Halfhand, Ygritte, Aemon Targaryen or Benjen can attest. Either way was one of the causes Robb didn't fold: he thought he had a heir. As if, since Jon had already thrown his lot with Stannis. Oh, also, DOD is Erikson's Dust of Dreams. A Dance with Dragons is ADWD. *and truly I can't bring myself to do it

You know, that Jon beeing send to the wall is way before everything else. And yes, there might even be some very good reasons...


So what keeps of your claim of stupidity against the starks?
That Ned is the kind of guy who wants to give children a chance to run instead of beeing killed. (And again in 90% of all cases, this would have even been the better choice)
Some girls not having a different choice.
And of course some stuff from what I would call "introduction" and some hindsight.

The ONLY THING WHICH WAS STUPID was Rob breaking his wedding arrangement. That was just plain stupid.
(There was not a singe logical reason to do so!)

The point is, that everything the Starks do ends up in a desaster. No matter how unlikely it is.

Edited by Biglose, 14 May 2012 - 06:10 AM.

[older than old nan]

Lucky Shield, on 05 July 2010 - 08:47 AM, said:

If there's a House that i HATE, its the Tully's- i mean- they're bloody idiots! First time i read the books, i liked them, i pitied because they were a little dim but well meaning and i pitied Cat for being left alone in the world but i'm reading the books a second time (anticipating the publication of DOD) and i realised that they actually really did kill Robb and ruin his revolt (at least the children did)

1. They are always being manipulated by the Freys, i mean they're Lords of the crossing and their's hundreds of them but just kill Walder (the first one), Walder Rivers and Lame Lothar and they won't be any trouble anymore. The others are all sheep. I'd also kill Little Walder cause he's a dumbass

2. The -ever judging Cat- releases Jaime, killing the Lannister hostages forcing the execution of Karstark - losing over 2000 men i believe - and making Robb even weaker then he was. We can also assume that if Jaime had not lost his hand, his "miraculous" change of attitude would never have happened. And now, she's a murdering zombie who tries to kill Brienne.

3. Edmure is a whoring fool (at least he knows it, unlike Cat and Lysa) but his need to impress his nephew pushes him to dissobey his orders and he is the cause of Stannis's loss at the battle of the Blackwater. Stannis is now even more religious then he used to be and can't wait to burn every idiot with royal blood in front of him. The battle of the fords also forces Robb to continue the war, something he clearly said he did not want to do. He wanted to negociate with Stannis, a road that i believe would have led to peace, since Stannis is much more flexible with lords then he used to be.

4. Lysa... Oh my god have i ever hated someone more then Lysa? I know a Lysa and i despise her. Discovering the book just made me hate those people even more. Lysa controls 20.000 swords and does not move from the Eirye because she's afraid for her son (who quite obviously would not be going to war? She also kills her husband??
Like wtf.. -.-' Jon Arryn was old, yes but no one ever said anything bad about him - he was kind and dutiful- but no let's just poison him because Petyr says so. She near-kills her own niece (Supposedly, the last Stark alive) because Petyr kisses her. I mean how thick could you be? And last but not least, she doesn't even let her nephew through her lands when all he's doing is trying to save the north.

5. Brynden is either gay (not a problem but i don't think he is; GRRM always hints about it when someone is gay or a pedophile "Lyn Corbray") or in love with his brother's wife (that's got my vote) - the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, right?

6. Hoster Tully most likely killed his own progeny when he gave the tea to Lysa, i mean thats bad enough.. She wouldn't be a maid again if Petyr's baby was gone? Just keep the child if he's Petyr's kid there's a good chance he'll have a claim to the iron throne before his father's done.  


And there you have it  [img]http://asoiaf.wester...gif[/img]  what do you think?

I totally agree... you forgot to mention how Cat kidnapped Tyrion just on the word of Littlefinger who has a good reason to hate her.