155 replies to this topic

[Lady Blackfish]

Alexia, on 04 November 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Robert is a coward when it comes to the Lannisters.  He saw Ned's broken leg with his own two eyes and chose to blow it off!

This is true, but in that case we can hardly insist that Catelyn Stark should go to Robert with the queen's brother in tow if she expected any justice.

Edited by Lady Blackfish, 04 November 2010 - 08:58 PM.

[Alexia]

Lady Blackfish, on 04 November 2010 - 08:57 PM, said:

This is true, but in that case we can hardly insist that Catelyn Stark should go to Robert with the queen's brother in tow if she expected any justice.

I entirely agree with you - and for the record, I don't think the Starks would have received any kind of justice from Robert at all.  Not given Robert's past history with dispensing justice to them during Ned's year in his service.  Personally, I don't think ironclad proof would have done the trick.

Ironclad proof of incest, OTOH...

Edited by Alexia, 04 November 2010 - 09:02 PM.

[Lady Blackfish]

I do think there is something to Lord Varys' point that northmen might've marched earlier if Catelyn had told them to (Robb actually does not consider marching at all until Ned himself is imprisoned, and even when he marches he does not spontaneously feel obligated to liberate Riverrun, certainly the notion doesn't ever seem to inspire the bannermen), but it would also make it seem even more like Catelyn wanted war.

ETA: OTOH, Tywin wouldn't be amiss in assuming that fucking with House Tully meant fucking with House Stark, which is more to the conversation's point.  But he might think that military confrontation from that quarter would be less likely given that Ned's down in King's Landing and only boy Robb is around to lead such an attack (perhaps honorable Stark men can be counted on to lead from the front).  But in any case, to be honest I think Tywin acted as he did only because he knew that Robert is halfway in his pocket anyway.  A charge was made against his son which he didn't even bother waiting to see be investigated.

Edited by Lady Blackfish, 04 November 2010 - 09:40 PM.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I really start to feel like Robert when taking on both Lady Blackfish and Alexia. And I'm supposed to be a eunuch ;-).

But let's get started:

The point about going to the Eyrie was the best way to prepare is a deduction of mine. It does not enter Catelyn's thoughts, but it is strange that she only thinks about Winterfell and the Vale at that point. We are talking about Catelyn Tully here. She is the eldest daughter of Lord Hoster Tully, one should assume she knows how to survive on her own in the Riverlands, or at least how to get unseen to her father's closest friends in the region. Look how the Reeds and Bran survive in the North later on.

The raven thing:

Here I'm in Alexia's camp. Sending ravens would not have helped Cat or Lysa - even if they had send Tyrion's signed confession of the assassination attempt, Cersei would still have found a way to make it appear like an insult to Robert. And effectively it was not that difficult to see the whole trip to the Eyrie as a preparation for a coalition of three great houses (Tully, Stark, Arryn) against Robert Baratheon with Eddard Stark as the leader. Not stating your intentions and not coming to your King awaiting his judgment can always be seen as treason.

A letter written by Lysa would not have found Robert in good mood, anyway. He was hurt and insulted by the fact that she left KL hastily and took the opportunity away from him to care for his namesake, Robert Arryn. He really wanted to raise the boy properly.

Of course, Ned the idiot indeed does know the same stuff Cat does, but he, too, chose not to lay the cards on the table. But to speak in favor of Ned: It would have been much more easier for him to do so if Catelyn and Tyrion were right there so that Robert could question them. Without them present, he could not make a decision, could he?
With Tyrion at KL, Ned and Cat would have had enough proof to convict Tyrion. They had the dagger, Littlefinger's testimony which they believed was the truth, and the dwarf who supposedly did the deed. They had no proof about who murdered Jon Arryn, nor did they knew whether Bran's fall was an accident, but they had enough for this case. And there was a chance that this whole affair would have been enough to solve the whole thing. Especially as Littlefinger was at its heart. He would not have gotten away if there had been a trial.

The wolf business shows a tendency in Robert, but I really was inclined to believe that the murder of Lady happened as much due to Cersei's insistence then due to Robert's belief that huge wolves were no pets. Thinking that they might be a danger not only to the Stark children but to everybody was not that irrational. I actually was pretty surprised that he actually allowed the girls to take the animals with them in the first place.
About him knowing the truth about Joffrey I agree. That was just cowardice. But he did not punish for Arya, or did he?

Robb only started marching after Robert was dead and Ned in the dungeons. Calling the banners of the North in a letter from Riverrun in Ned's name and sending Ser Rodrik north to meet with the Lords would have been the best move, I think.

The point in arranging a trial would have been utmost caution and speed. Going to Riverrun without anyone believing that Cat would go there would have been the first step. Then they would have to arrive at KL as fast as the news about Tyrion's abduction or shortly after it. Then Cersei would not have been able to prepare a hunting accident, nor would it be particularly likely that Robert would have gone hunting/or remained out there. And even if he was, as Ned was the Hand of the King, technically he would have been the guy in charge to conduct the trial. With Robert not caring to be the King, Ned's sentence while sitting on the Iron Throne would be as good as the King's. It would have been risky to do this, but Cersei would not have been able to do anything about it. And anyway, Littlefinger soon would have ended in the center of this investigation, as Cat's testimony would have quoted Littlefinger's lie of the Tourney on Joffrey's name day, a lie which would have been revealed as such by both Tyrion and Renly, Cersei might actually have been quite relieved about this whole trial, and there might have been some kind of Lannister-Stark-reconciliation. Most of the enmity between Starks and Lannisters was created by Littlefinger. We only know the Stark side of the coin, but if he told similar stories to Cersei, both parties would have gotten a real epiphany about the game of our good Lord Baelish.

I really believe in Robert to a small degree. He was struck by Bran's accident, and he really never is told anything. I find it still stupid that he died without learning about the incest. It would have been interesting to see how he would have reacted to it on his deathbed. Would he really have ordered to kill the children? At that time, when he just has allowed Dany to survive? And Ned's perception of Robert is biased by Littlefinger's lies. Remember him joking about 'the King telling the Queen too much'. This could be true, of course, but it also could be a lie. It's purpose is to make Ned even more dependent on Littlefinger, and this is also the whole point of the dagger story. Littlefinger never intended for Ned or Cat to act on this 'knowledge'. He even wanted them to throw away the dagger. All he wanted was to make them even more suspicious of the Lannisters without even knowing why they were supposed to be evil. That was also a good way to prevent Ned from investigating in all possible directions with an open mind. Lysa's letter was just a rumor. But the attempt on Bran's life was different.

Edited by Lord Varys, 04 November 2010 - 09:52 PM.

[Lady Blackfish]

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

one should assume she knows how to survive on her own in the Riverlands, or at least how to get unseen to her father's closest friends in the region.

Alright, fair enough, Riverrun's an easy distance from the inn as she remarks earlier in that chapter, though it's still going to be a more expected destination than the Eyrie.  Even then, she's holing up with nothing to gain but might.  Unlike you, though, I don't think Catelyn is aiming for war.  I think the information Lysa holds is justification enough from Cat's point of view, given that she has already arrested Tyrion.

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

And effectively it was not that difficult to see the whole trip to the Eyrie as a preparation for a coalition of three great houses (Tully, Stark, Arryn) against Robert Baratheon with Eddard Stark as the leader.

Effectively it's not that difficult to see a trip to Riverrun as a preparation for a coalition of two great houses against Robert Baratheon with Eddard Stark as the leader.  Does the addition of one more house make it a worse move?  If anything the third house would give the Lannisters more to fear, if they're going to play that game in the first place.

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

Sending ravens would not have helped Cat or Lysa - even if they had send Tyrion's signed confession of the assassination attempt, Cersei would still have found a way to make it appear like an insult to Robert.
[...]
A letter written by Lysa would not have found Robert in good mood, anyway. He was hurt and insulted by the fact that she left KL hastily and took the opportunity away from him to care for his namesake, Robert Arryn. He really wanted to raise the boy properly.

Cersei is going to try and make everything the Starks do appear bad for Robert.  Ultimately if they cannot depend on Robert to tear himself away from Cersei's influence then nothing is worth doing with Robert's involvement at all, and I think we all agree that he has to eventually become involved at some point.

And Robert was not personally insulted by Lysa's departure, he knows that it was an affront to the Lannisters and probably resented having to deal with their disgruntlement (he sleeps with a Lannister and all that jazz), but I can't see him letting that get in the way of considering her words, if we can count on him to dispense justice in the first place.  And if you can't do that, isn't our whole argument about going to Robert moot?  Point is, Cersei's influence is the real factor here.

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

Not stating your intentions and not coming to your King awaiting his judgment can always be seen as treason.

Oh sure, but Cat may have intended to let King's Landing know just that.  To be honest I don't know why Martin doesn't let us know Cat's further intentions but I am fairly certain that he never intended them to be that she is moving for war or that any of her actions were motivated by anything other than avoiding the pursuit she expected from Tywin Lannister and seeing what Lysa, the woman who sent her word of the Lannister plot in the first place, the woman whom Cat is shocked to realize doesn't want to do anything except run away from the Lannisters, has to say. These actually have solid points of reference in the text.


At any rate, you are saying that Cat going to the Eyrie indicates evasion of justice and the potential gain from Lysa's testimony is not enough to compensate, and you are saying that Cat's presence in King's Landing would actually assist Ned ...

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

But to speak in favor of Ned: It would have been much more easier for him to do so if Catelyn and Tyrion were right there so that Robert could question them. Without them present, he could not make a decision, could he?

But I'm not sure why not?  The trial probably could not proceed without Tyrion's presence, of course, but as you say, Ned thinks Littlefinger is telling the truth, and even if they can't connect that to Arryn's murder, they certainly have a good case (in the context of medieval legal realities) for the attempted murder of Bran should Littlefinger say that the murder weapon belonged to Tyrion.  This is not enough to compel Robert to the possibility that Catelyn's apprehension of Tyrion is justified?

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

Going to Riverrun without anyone believing that Cat would go there ...

Well, as you say, she is Catelyn Tully, daughter of Hoster.  I would think people would expect Riverrun ahead of the Eyrie.  I know I did.

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

Then Cersei would not have been able to prepare a hunting accident, nor would it be particularly likely that Robert would have gone hunting/or remained out there.

But I would think that this is out of the realm of predictability from Cat's POV.  Nobody at this point thinks the king's life is in jeopardy or has any cause to.  Of course Cat should not want to needlessly delay the trial if she's honestly and honorably seeking justice, but I think you brush off Lysa's contributions too quickly.  Ought Cat to have expected that Cersei would nullify Lysa's testimony, if she could expect any justice from Robert at all?

Lord Varys, on 04 November 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

With Robert not caring to be the King, Ned's sentence while sitting on the Iron Throne would be as good as the King's. It would have been risky to do this, but Cersei would not have been able to do anything about it.

Cersei can get her husband to disregard a signed letter of admission of guilt, but she can't convince Robert to sit in on Tyrion's trial himself?  Surely you jest, good sir.  There is no  effort she would spare to prevent Eddard Stark from administering her kin's justice.

PS: I absolutely agree that Littlefinger was obviously trying to make Ned dependent on him and pull him away from Robert, BTW, though I think I disagree that he genuinely wanted Ned to forget about the dagger.  I felt that the idea of forgetting all about Bran's attempted murder could only incense and gall Ned more.  He doesn't want Ned to go home, but he doesn't want Ned to go to Robert and he doesn't want Ned to consider that anyone else is responsible for anything that's gone awry other than the Lannisters.

I also think it's a lot easier for Robert to be generous on his deathbed than he'd otherwise be.  People like to die with no regrets.  I suppose if he'd still had a near-death experience and just happened to survive, he might've had a big perspective change, though.

Edited by Lady Blackfish, 05 November 2010 - 02:21 AM.

[Mad Monkey]

There's no way that the Lannisters would have let Eddard Stark try Tyrion for the attempted-murder of Bran Stark, his own son. Seriously, that just sounds unbelievably corrupt, and it wouldn't be hard at all for Tywin to pressure even a reasonable, conscientious authority figure to put a stop to what would appear to be a lynching. At least Catelyn bothered to find a judge who didn't have the same last name as the victim.

[Songlian]

 Slightly off-topic: I passed that chapter just days ago, but is it really cool to have such a huge spoiler as Robb's death in the title of a thread? I mean, ok, people who haven't read the series should not look inside the spoiler threads, but when you click  the View New Content tab, you shouldn't be fed something like that gratuitously. Just saying. 

Sorry for being obnoxious, but I had to say it. Carry on. 

[Lord Varys]

LB,

I also don't think that Cat is aiming for a war. We cannot assume that, as she never sees war in a positive light, and is desperately trying to convince her son and his lords later on to do everything they can to broker a peace. I only said that it seems as if she was aiming for war. It would have been a smart move to take Tyrion to the Eyrie if she was aiming for a war, because she would have delivered Tyrion as proof for the willingness of House Stark to stand beside House Arryn if they intended to punish the Lannisters by force for the murder of Jon Arryn. Cat did not come as beggar but as ally.

But if her goal was to deescalate the whole thing, going to the Eyrie was not just risky (they could very well all of died up on the Mountain Road, and then the Realm would bleed for sure), but also stupid, as they were out of the loop for many days. They had no opportunity to hear news about Robert, Ned, and Tywin until they had reached the Eyrie. And Cat would have to reveal her presence up there to make an impact on the things down in KL.

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Effectively it's not that difficult to see a trip to Riverrun as a preparation for a coalition of two great houses against Robert Baratheon with Eddard Stark as the leader. Does the addition of one more house make it a worse move? If anything the third house would give the Lannisters more to fear, if they're going to play that game in the first place.

Not if Lord Hoster would have sent Tyrion and Cat at once to KL, before the Lannisters would have learned about him staying there. Also, the Riverlands lay close by and were thus no real threat to KL, whereas the Vale of Arryn in itself is a most effective fortress against any assault from mainland Westeros.

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Cersei is going to try and make everything the Starks do appear bad for Robert. Ultimately if they cannot depend on Robert to tear himself away from Cersei's influence then nothing is worth doing with Robert's involvement at all, and I think we all agree that he has to eventually become involved at some point.

Cersei's influence is always going to be greater without the people in question being present there. Without them giving their testimony and reacting to any of Cersei's attempts to make things appear differently, things would always be far worse.

On the dagger, well, telling and showing Robert himself the dagger might have lead to Robert Baratheon uncovering Littlefinger's lie:

Ned: 'That filthy dwarf send an assassin after my poor Bran. He cut the had of my wife to pieces. That's the dagger dagger. She gave it to me when she was here. The dwarf won it at the tourney of your son's name day from Littlefinger.

Robert: 'Wait a minute. That is my dagger. I won it at my son's name day from Littlefinger, not the dwarf. The dwarf and Littlefinger backed Jaime Lannister (the dwarf always does, he adores his brother), but Renly suggested that I should back Loras Tyrell. But you certainly don't believe that I intended to kill your son, do you? I sat with you there Ned, you are my best friend. I grieve with you.

Ned:... Well, apparently Littlefinger lied.

Robert: Guard, drag Lord Petyr here, in chains!

Littlefinger had to convince Ned to remain silent about the dagger. If he told anything about it to Robert, he might have ended up being in serious trouble. Even more so if Tyrion had backed 'Robert's version of the story' - the truth that the dagger belonged to him.

On Ned charging Tyrion himself:

That is technically possible. If the King is indisposed, the Hand steps in. And neither the Queen nor the Crown Prince can do anything against that. Ned might have been ill-advised to do this, as Lord Tywin would most certainly not have remained silent, but he would have had the legal right to do so. And he would have had to do so, too, if Robert's reaction to Tyrion's and Cat's arrival at KL would have been to go hunting.

Think about it: Lord Tywin also presided over the court which investigated his grandson's murder, and he actually convicted his very own son. Why should Lord Stark, the Hand of the King, not do a similar thing?

Edited by Lord Varys, 09 November 2010 - 11:44 AM.

[Brahma]

Lord Varys, on 08 November 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

Also, the Riverlands lay close by and were thus no real threat to KL, whereas the Vale of Arryn in itself is not an effective fortress against any assault from mainland Westeros.

I disagree about your assessment of the Vale of Arryn. The Bloody Gate is so named because of the dozen armies that smashed themselves to pieces upon them during the Age of Heros. If anything, the Vale of Arryn is the most secure fortress in Westeros. It would take a terrible winter or dragons to overcome the defenses there.

[Lord Varys]

Brahma,

sometimes I'm really surprised about me misspelling my posts. Obviously, I meant (and corrected it above) that the Vale of Arryn would be an effective fortress against any or all the powers in mainland Westeros combined, especially in winter, as it would effectively blockade the Mountain Road to any invading armies.

My point was that going to Riverrun would never have looked as threatening as going to Winterfell or the Eyrie, as both castles lay in regions way beyond the immediate reach of the Iron Throne.
And the Eyrie would even seem more threatening to the Iron Throne, as going to the Vale really looks like as if Lady Stark was forging an alliance with House Arryn. You can expect the wife of Lord Stark to return home, or to go to her father, but not necessarily to her sister.

[Mad Monkey]

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Think about it: Lord Tywin also presided over the court which investigated his grandson's murder, and he actually convicted his very own son. Why should Lord Stark, the Hand of the King, not do a similar thing?

True, but Tywin faced no opposition when he made that decision. Stark would have to engage in a power struggle with House Lannister to do that, and he might not win.

[Lord Varys]

MM,

true, that is why it would still be somewhat risky. But Ned would have the legal right to do it, and I don't see any real obstacles at court to prevent him from pressing the matter. Cersei was without any real official power, and the only other openly acting Lannister crony, Pycelle, Ned successfully put down during the audience concerning the Mountain. He would have been able to do so again. But of course a trial conducted by Ned needs for Robert to effectively don't care anymore about anything in his kingdom.
And Renly most certainly would have backed Ned and the whole Lannister trial openly. He was plotting to get rid of Cersei. Trying and convicting her brother would be a huge success on that front. Maybe he and Loras would even indicated the silent support of Mace Tyrell in this whole matter. That would have strengthened Ned's position considerably. Littlefinger would do anything in his power to delay and prevent the trial (while assuring Ned that he would back him wholeheartedly, of course - at least as long as Tyrion and Cat were not yet in KL). Selmy likely would have continued to do his job without intending to get involved in anything. But he likely would have warned Ned that provoking Lord Tywin is not a good idea.
Varys would have been a wild card. I have no idea how he would have reacted to this development. Maybe he would have tried to prevent the outbreak of the war by assassinating Littlefinger before he could kill Tyrion? With Littlefinger unable to testify Tyrion's revelation about his lie would become meaningless, and Ned never would have been sure that Littlefinger was not Cersei's crony, deeply involved in the Lannister plot against Jon Arryn. This would have been a solid basis for the outbreak of a civil war between Houses Lannister and Stark at a time of Varys' choosing.

[Brahma]

Lord Varys, on 09 November 2010 - 11:51 AM, said:

Brahma,

sometimes I'm really surprised about me misspelling my posts. Obviously, I meant (and corrected it above) that the Vale of Arryn would be an effective fortress against any or all the powers in mainland Westeros combined, especially in winter, as it would effectively blockade the Mountain Road to any invading armies.

My point was that going to Riverrun would never have looked as threatening as going to Winterfell or the Eyrie, as both castles lay in regions way beyond the immediate reach of the Iron Throne.
And the Eyrie would even seem more threatening to the Iron Throne, as going to the Vale really looks like as if Lady Stark was forging an alliance with House Arryn. You can expect the wife of Lord Stark to return home, or to go to her father, but not necessarily to her sister.

Thank you for clarifying your point.

After going back an re-reading the series, I remarked that so much of the recent troubles of House Stark hinged on Cat taking Tyrion captive. The complications of Ned becoming the King's Hand in KL would have been significantly less if the brother of the Queen hadn't been accused of murder. But then the story would have had significantly less drama and we might not have been as interested in the story as we are. I was (and still am) willing to take Cat's reason for going to the Eyrie at face value: to avoid getting ambushed on the road to Riverrun/Winterfell by people loyal to house Lannister.

[SFDanny]

Brahma, on 09 November 2010 - 01:42 PM, said:

After going back an re-reading the series, I remarked that so much of the recent troubles of House Stark hinged on Cat taking Tyrion captive.

See, I would peg House Stark's troubles on different events. In particular, I'd point to Jaime throwing Bran out a window, and Littlefinger getting Lysa to send a lying message to Cat after murdering Jon Arryn. Why is Cat looking for justice the root of Stark troubles?

[Lord Varys]

Cat's actions start the actual hostilities, and put the Starks on the weak side of the conflict. That is bad, and somewhat an early root of their downfall (Ned could have prevented it, of course, if he had acted decisively after learning the truth about the incest), as it put the Tullys and later also Robb's forces on a disadvantage. But I don't blame her for it. Capturing Tyrion was her only chance to prevent Cersei and the other Lannisters learning about her presence down in the south. It would raise their suspicions and maybe even force their hands to try to kill Ned as they killed Jon Arryn and tried to kill Bran (probably) two times. Also, letting Tyrion get away would prevent her from learning the truth about his involvement in the conspiracy and the reasons why he and his family wanted her to kill her son. She had to take him. It might have been her chance to assist Ned in his investigation or even find to the bottom of the whole conspiracy.

All I argued against was the convenient omission of the possibility of going to Riverrun with her captive. I speculated about the possibility that this could or should have been a better choice than the Vale, but I didn't say that choosing the Vale was the worst choice. Essentially, going to Winterfell would have been even worse, as getting there, or only into the southern part of the North, would have taken too much time.
A little bit more elaborating on this part from the author would have not been that bad, as would have been an explanation about Catelyn's motives and goals in the Vale.

From a strategic point of view forming an alliance with the Tullys (Hoster and Edmure) and giving them vital information and support on the whole situation would have been of utmost importance. After all, they most likely would be the first targets of Lord Tywin's wrath, and I'm pretty sure the skirmishes and the early war in the Riverlands would have turned out differently if Cat would have been there advising Edmure by being Hoster's voice at his own war council.
But with Ned stuck in KL, and Cat hanging around in the Vale, the Tullys and the Riverlords were left to fend alone, without even understanding why Lord Tywin attacked them, as they had no (clear) idea why Cat had abducted Tyrion Lannister. Edmure was not prepared for this.

[Chanur]

SFDanny, on 09 November 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

See, I would peg House Stark's troubles on different events. In particular, I'd point to Jaime throwing Bran out a window, and Littlefinger getting Lysa to send a lying message to Cat after murdering Jon Arryn. Why is Cat looking for justice the root of Stark troubles?

Because kidnapping and trying to have killed the kings innocent brother in law is not justice?

I do not believe she had any intention of going to kings landing. I think she wanted to take Tyrion back to Winterfell and have some farce of a trial. What did she expect her sister who believes Tyrion's family murdered her husband ( so Cat believes) to do? It was completely idiotic on every level.

Edited by Chanur, 09 November 2010 - 04:01 PM.

[SFDanny]

Chanur, on 09 November 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

Because kidnapping and trying to have killed the kings innocent brother in law is not justice?

It constantly amazes me that people substitute their knowledge gained from reading the books - meaning multiple character points of view - for that of a character. You know Tyrion is innocent because you know what he was thinking and doing at the time. Catelyn doesn't. In fact she has every reason to think he is responsible for the attempted murder of her son. With that understanding she doesn't kidnap or try to kill Tyrion. She arrests him to have him tried for a crime that she believes he committed. She does so instead of letting him get away and escape to help continue trying to kill her family. That seems like the pursuit of justice and a pretty level headed plan in a very difficult situation.

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I do not believe she had any intention of going to kings landing. I think she wanted to take Tyrion back to Winterfell and have some farce of a trial. What did she expect her sister who believes Tyrion's family murdered her husband ( so Cat believes) to do? It was completely idiotic on every level.

A "farce of a trial"? Where do you get this stuff? Catelyn objects every step of the way to the conduct of her sister in handling the trial. She wants justice, and that means finding the truth about Jon Arryn's death and the attempt kill Bran. If she just took Tyrion and killed him, it places Ned in a untenable position, but she can't just allow Tyrion, a murderer in her eyes, to walk free and tell the rest of the Lannisters that the Starks "know" what they are up to and plan to expose them to the king.

[Mad Monkey]

While "Catelyn objected every step of the way" is a shade generous, she did disapprove of Lysa's obvious unfairness:

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“Behold the king’s justice,” Lysa Arryn said. Torch flames fluttered like pennons along the walls, and here and there the odd torch guttered out.

“Lysa, I think this unwise,” Catelyn Stark said as the black wind swirled around the hall.

---

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When that vile turnkey of hers had come crawling to tell them that Tyrion Lannister wished to confess, Catelyn had urged Lysa to have the dwarf brought to them privately, but no, nothing would do but that her sister must make a show of him before half the Vale. And now this . . .

“Lannister is my prisoner,” she told Ser Rodrik as they descended the tower stairs and made their way through the Eyrie’s cold white halls. Catelyn wore plain grey wool with a silvered belt. “My sister must be reminded of that.”

At the doors to Lysa’s apartments, they met her uncle storming out. “Going to join the fool’s festival?” Ser Brynden snapped. “I’d tell you to slap some sense into your sister, if I thought it would do any good, but you’d only bruise your hand.”

--

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“Now.” Catelyn spoke more loudly than she’d intended. Men were turning to look. “Lysa, you cannot mean to go ahead with this folly. Alive, the Imp has value. Dead, he is only food for crows. And if his champion should prevail here—”

Catelyn didn't seem to actually want to have Tyrion executed. She even expressed doubts as to his guilt (specifically, as opposed to the other Lannisters) in the trial chapter.

[Chanur]

SFDanny, on 10 November 2010 - 12:31 AM, said:

It constantly amazes me that people substitute their knowledge gained from reading the books - meaning multiple character points of view - for that of a character. You know Tyrion is innocent because you know what he was thinking and doing at the time. Catelyn doesn't.

I am glad you mentioned this because it is a double edged sword. Regardless of guilt or what Cat thinks, what did she expect to happen when she seized someone of equal or greater station? The ONLY appropriate forum she had to get justice would be through the king. Doing ANYTHING else is an act of treason. Tyrion at this time is the son of a Warden, brother to the Queen, he is also in line to inherit the rock and become a great lord of his own, as far as everyone knows. She had no authority to arrest him at all.

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A "farce of a trial"? Where do you get this stuff? Catelyn objects every step of the way to the conduct of her sister in handling the trial. She wants justice, and that means finding the truth about Jon Arryn's death and the attempt kill Bran. If she just took Tyrion and killed him, it places Ned in a untenable position, but she can't just allow Tyrion, a murderer in her eyes, to walk free and tell the rest of the Lannisters that the Starks "know" what they are up to and plan to expose them to the king.

She certainly did not object every step of the way. It is sort of like condemning shooting a prisoner as you load the executioners gun for them. Words mean little, when your actions are saying plenty.

[DizoakiusMaximus]

Chanur, on 09 November 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

I do not believe she had any intention of going to kings landing. I think she wanted to take Tyrion back to Winterfell and have some farce of a trial. What did she expect her sister who believes Tyrion's family murdered her husband ( so Cat believes) to do? It was completely idiotic on every level.

I agree. She never gave any indication of going anywhere else (ultimately) other than Winterfell. There are good reasons for this, foremost of which that she would be nearly untouchable there while she conducted whatever type of "trial" she desired, or even torture to try to find out who tossed Bran from the tower and who sent the assassin (if she even believed Tyrions protestations of innocence, which doesn't seem likely).

  Her capture of Tyrion was spur of the moment, and everything that happened after that spoke of her desperation to escape with her captive, no matter what she had to do to effect it. There was no reason she had to capture him when she did (apart from the fact that it was her best chance to do so); she could have said she was going to visit Lysa or Riverrun (since it had been so long since she'd seen either) or that she was going to join Ned in King's Landing, or any number of other things, but she saw her chance to capture him and took it, regardless of the consquences. Of course, her guilelessness is what makes her such a boring honorable character...even when that guilelessness gets her and others into trouble.

Edited by DizoakiusMaximus, 10 November 2010 - 08:01 PM.