The Tully's killed Robb?
Posted 11 November 2010 - 10:29 PM
Posted 12 November 2010 - 08:00 AM
The fact that this trial and Tyrion's execution would be politically unwise, is obvious as well. But that does not make both of them illegal.
Posted 12 November 2010 - 09:38 AM
Posted 12 November 2010 - 11:11 AM
The fact that this trial and Tyrion's execution would be politically unwise, is obvious as well. But that does not make both of them illegal.
I am pretty sure you cannot execute people of equal station, or there would be chaos. Tyrion is not some minor lord under the banner of Little Robert. He is the heir to Warden of the West. Also the crime was not committed in the Vales territory, so I do not see how it falls under her jurisdiction. Regardless seizing Tyrion and taking him to the Vale was plainly retarded as the destruction of her house shows.
One last thing SFDanny, you cannot sit there with a straight face and tell me Cat did not know how the infamous Lord Tywin would react to one of his children being seized. His reputation is far and wide, and known especially to Cat.
Edited by Chanur, 12 November 2010 - 11:13 AM.
Posted 12 November 2010 - 12:23 PM
Posted 12 November 2010 - 01:00 PM
Posted 12 November 2010 - 01:05 PM
Posted 13 November 2010 - 12:16 AM
Honestly this always bothered me. The Kings Guard forswear all lands and women, so logically Jamie shouldn't be able top inherit the titles/lands. The Wardenship I could see, since that I understand that to be a battle command thing-but the Lordship would logically flow to Tyrion.
The major problem of course being that Lord Trywin doesn't want that, and so it always looked to me (and the characters of the books) Like the Lannister holdings would go to anyone but Tyrion.
Posted 13 November 2010 - 01:05 AM
Cat's presence at the Eyrie was no particular secret, as I recall? Edmure wrote to her there telling her that he demanded Tywin to reveal his intentions. The news took a while to reach King's Landing, and Ned benefited from Yoren speeding the news to him personally before Robert and Cersei heard about it. She wouldn't have to make an impact on things down in KL until they got the news anyway, right?
Also, I must be forgetting something, could you remind me what Cat would have to hear about Robert, Ned and Tywin?
I agree that the dagger is critical evidence, I don't believe I indicated otherwise (I hope not, I admit I'm too lazy and in a rush to go back and reread), and I think it's a nonissue anyway since Ned has the dagger all this time.
Perhaps I read their relationship differently than you did, but I don't think Robert really ever believes what Cersei says. For example, he knows his son was lying about the Mycah incident. The point isn't that Cersei convinces him, the point is that Robert caves into Cersei without believing her at all. But I don't think he could get away with punishing Ned the way he could punish Lady, nor would he be willing to, certainly not without a little bit of investigating (which could be all it takes, given your point about Littlefinger and the dagger).
Tywin being able to get away with bad justice is different because at that point there's nobody around to challenge House Lannister. Ned might attempt to do a similar thing, but I simply was arguing that Cersei would not let him (and she doesn't need to rely on Robert for this, she can arrange accidents). If Ned was around to challenge Tywin I believe he would, it is in line with his values as displayed in his conversations with Robert about one family having too much power and his general fairly evolved concepts of justice.
To state for the record: I too think Cat's motivations were merely to avoid ambush on the road, and as well she chose the Eyrie in particular because of the answers she believed her sister held, because Cat truly and honestly does want answers (she does not take it upon herself to execute Tyrion either, so there's little use arguing that she thought it was her position to do that). Her sister does not need to do anything except talk. I can see validity in some of the points Lord Varys makes about the Riverrun option, the road is easier as Catelyn knows full well, and Hoster would have been much more likely to give Cat safe escort to KL rather than Lysa, though Cat cannot know how uncooperative Lysa would be, and in any case she cannot get more evidence from Hoster like she thinks she can get from Lysa. This all goes back, as it always does in arguments about this plot point, to how predictable Tywin's retaliation was. Cat obviously expects trouble, but trouble directed at her individual person and not at riverland civilians.
I think this business about Cat wanting a kangaroo trial in Winterfell is hogwash. It is clearly indicated in the text that the Winterfell option was only a lie tossed around to deter pursuit, and that she was against the trial that did occur. Given what is there in the text, it adds the least amount of fiction to the situation to merely assign her motivations thusly.
The idea that Catelyn would conduct torture to extort information goes against everything that has been established by the author about her character. This strikes me as an unworthy potshot, and doesn't speak well for the argument. There's also no reason why she would be less willing to consider Tyrion's protestations of innocence in Winterfell than she was on the way to the Eyrie, and she is shown to have doubts about the accusation.
Edited by Lady Blackfish, 13 November 2010 - 01:43 AM.
Posted 13 November 2010 - 02:30 AM
Concerning the Lannister inheritance, I think it's safe to say that Jaime always had special privileges as a member of the Kingsguard due to the extreme influence of his father, and the fact that Tywin would rather kill himself on a toilet than let Tyrion inherit. I don't think that any nobles of the realm ever expected that Tywin would let Tyrion inherit.
Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion was a great mistake, more so because Catelyn, as part of the ruling class, was fully aware how Tywin would react. Tywin didn't give a shit about Tyrion, but she gave him "legal grounds" to attack the Riverlands. Not to mention that she had no real evidence that Tyrion was behind the attempt on Bran's life, other than the word of Littlefinger.
Posted 13 November 2010 - 07:49 PM
Edited by SFDanny, 13 November 2010 - 11:33 PM.
Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:29 PM
And the Tyrells are great. They are good and gallant, and ruthless if need be. Garlan Tyrell is the only guy who ever scolds Joff on being an asshole. Margaery Tyrell has all of Sansa Stark elegance and manners without actually believing she lives in a fairytale. They are good and generous when they need to, and dangerous when they need to. The gay Tyrell kid is one of the best jousters in Westeros, and a great warrior. Loras himself says Garlan is better with the sword and he trains against three or four men at once. Willas still is on good terms with Oberyn Martell, the man who crippled him. Mediocre, the Tyrells? So far they are the house with less crazy people, less murderous intentions and less idiocy. They are kind whenever it's possible and ruthless whenever it's needed and never more than that (unlike the Lannisters, who go way too far in their ruthlessness).
All houses have a good character, and Brynden and Edmure aren't that bad at all. But the Tyrells... the less smart one is Mace, and the rest are cultured badasses. I don't see what's mediocre about them.
Edited by Natsu, 05 March 2011 - 07:31 PM.
Posted 05 March 2011 - 10:55 PM
And about the tyrells.. i used to dislike them, but lately i think im changing my mind. Marg is smart, and garlan is better than more others (i'd even say better than any other knight in KL). Loras is a kind of young jaime - haughty and self convinced to be invincible, but he's 17, he's cool, awesome, handsome, everything. He can afford to be arrogant (i'm not saying i like that, im just saying it's normal).
I think mace is stupid - more than edmure, thats for sure, but nevermind. I cannot stand that horrible mother of his - shes awesome, but also the reason why tyrion is condamed, after all. I'm not a big imp-fan, but i just don't like her, period. I just love seeing her handling cersei (and i do like cersei.. or i should say that i love hating her. Yes, i know, im confused )
Posted 06 March 2011 - 02:13 AM
Posted 07 March 2011 - 09:05 AM
The criticism of Cat is, or should be, for two reasons: one, she had no authority to arrest Tyrion, regardless of his guilt or innocence. Eddard papered over this by approving it after the fact, but at the time it was illegal.
More crucially, it was incredibly unwise. Cat knew Tywin Lannister extremely well. Stories of the devastation he visited on the Tarbecks and Reynes for challenging his authority are literally legend in his own time. His reprisals, when his House is disrespected, is NOT thoughtful, proportional, and rational; it is brutal, and vastly disproportionate to the crime. These things were common knowledge, and Cat MUST have been aware of them.
Moreover, in her last discussion with Eddard b/f leaving KL, it was clear that she knew that the kingdom was a powderkeg waiting for a spark - that war was an imminent possibility, and that it would be devastating for the Starks. "It must not come to that" was their comment. At a time like that, a diplomat doesn't murder the heir to the Austro-Hungarian, er, I mean, arrest the heir to the Lannister, empire. Again, even if she had airtight evidence of Tyrion's guilt, she should have let Tyrion go for the sake of peace in the realm. It's not as though he'd be difficult to find if a grand jury found him worth charging in a crime!
But to make matters worse, her evidence for Tyrion's guilt was little more than a general suspicion of the Lannisters, plus LF's claim about the ownership of the knife. Sheesh, even if the knife had been Tyrion's, which it wasn't, that wouldn't be proof of his guilt! And of course, as we know, LF's "evidence" was false. I don't fault her for believing LF, but I fault her for not demanding corroboration, convincing proof of Tyrion's guilt, before even charging Tyrion; and for failing to follow the law in arresting him, so that the Crown, rather than Houses Stark or Tully, would be seen responsible for any actions taken against Tyrion. Even aside from the issues of proof and proper procedure, I fault her for taking such an incredibly inflammatory action at a time when even a far less inflammatory action might have plunged the realm into civil war, against a House ruled by a man known to never suffer insults lightly, but to respond with disproportionate brutality.
I liked Cat prior to the RW; I know she tried to do the right thing. But this was a FAIL of epic proportions - done cleverly, but unwisely (maximum understatement).
ETA: I always wondered why the Three Stooges made an appearance at that Inn - now I think I know!
Edited by AvengingAryaFan, 07 March 2011 - 09:07 AM.
Posted 07 March 2011 - 09:19 AM
It was a spur-of-the-moment decision with appalling consequences.
Posted 08 March 2011 - 04:45 AM
... They make some missteps; trusting in Catelyn's sister and foster brother being the most glaring, but doing nothing would have been the greatest mistake of all.
The only things they DID - warning Cersei of their intentions, and "arresting" Tyrion - were strategically disastrous. Relying almost exclusively on LF when the very survival of your House is on the line was both passive and foolish.
Your highlight of the Starks' extreme (and partly correct) distrust of the Lannisters underscores how egregiously negligent Ned was to fail to take extreme defensive precautions - rather than waving a red cape at the Lannister bull, as he did with Cersei!
Doing nothing would have been far better, at least until they had their defensive ducks in a row.
Far from exonerating the Starks, the known presence of people who would do them harm is reason to take extreme defensive actions and avoid provocations. In that dangerous situation, Ned and Cat did the opposite.
George makes Ned and Cersei personally good people; it's a tribute to his sympathetic treatment of them that some readers still do not realize that he also made all of the adults - Ned, Cat and Robb - blundering fools, each in their own crucial respect.
I love the Starks, even Cat, which is why I feel rather like Arya, when she kicked the dead Stark guardsman who had claimed that every Northern sword was worth ten of the southern swords. If Ned hadn't shared that guardsman's hubris, they'd still be alive. They might have survived even Cat's blunder and the resulting war, had Ned made his household secure. But he simply didn't take the threat seriously.
BTW, the reason Ned had been left out of the criticism thus far is that the OP's theory lays the blame on the Tullys - primarily Cat. @Natsu, many people agree Robb failed to be sufficiently explicit to a commander he was relying on, particularly a man of questionable wisdom. I'm disappointed in the Blackfish, whom I'd have expected to recognize and own the failure of Robb's leadership, but IIRC he was the first to castigate Edmure for his zeal.
Posted 26 March 2011 - 12:43 PM
Edited by Lothbrok, 26 March 2011 - 12:50 PM.
Posted 28 March 2011 - 07:20 PM
If there's a House that i HATE, its the Starks- i mean- they're bloody idiots! First time i read the books, i liked them, i pitied because they were a little dim but well meaning and I pitied the kids for being left alone in the world but thinking about it I realised that they actually really did kill their own men and ruin their own house.
*and truly I can't bring myself to do it
Ah hahaahahhaahha...O my goodnes...gasping for breath from stitch in side from laughing. Ah. Very good.
Posted 28 October 2011 - 01:40 PM
Killing someone with no justification is called murder, and it's a bad thing. Newsflash: Tywin is not a role model.
The only quality that I like about Lord Tywin, good on him for destroying his enemies, if you don't stop them at the beginning, you're gonna get fucked over, as we see from the Freys & Boltons. I think that the Tullys would be perfectly within their rights to get rid of Walder, he's their sworn bannerman & should answer their call to arms immediately, for those who would say they are also sworn to the throne, them not letting Robb past had nothing to do with that (also, did they ever swear fealty to Inbred Joffrey Barathelannister).