Why does Brynden dislike Jon Snow?

[Lucky Shield]

For what possible reason does Brynden dislike Jon Snow, i mean he's never met the kid before! And he nearly puts him in the same bag as the Lannisters, calling him a friend or servant of the Lannisters - if i remember correctly? :thumbsdown:

I mean what the hell, we all like Jon ! :D

[moondoggie]

Jon's name gets used as a bargaining chip and the blackfish simply doesnt bet on it. There isn't any evidence of hatred, just evidence that he wasn't prepared to dance to Jaimes tune no matter what.

[sn0mm1s]

It is because Catelyn hated Jon Snow.

[fionwe1987]

I'm betting the last thing he wants the Lannisters to know is that he trusts Jon Stark, and wants him to be the King in the North (as he was likely declared Robb's heir). He'll wait till that is possible, and to prevent others from thinking it can happen, he'll act as if he distrusts Jon.

[lacuna]

It's hard to tell. Not much to glean any info on.

-

From Jaime: "I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark's bastard is the Lord Commander on the wall."

The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both. No, ser, I think not. I'll die warm, if you please, with a sword in hand running red with lion blood."

-

"It would seem she was right about them both." What did that mean again, can anyone remind me?

We know that people generally mistrust bastards. However, it seems unreasonable to think that the Blackfish still harbors that kind of prejudice. He must have met Mya Stone on many occasions, and she is both capable and trustworthy. In comparison, both Theon Greyjoy and Jaime are highborn, and he doesn't trust them very much. If he hasn't figured it out yet, well... (All this is an aside if someone can tell me a specific grievance the Blackfish might have against Jon Snow. Maybe he thought Jon should have joined Robb in battle? Seems unlikely, he ought to know that Jon couldn't.)

[Bronn55]

The only thing that the Blackfish has heard about Jon Snow is from what his trusted neice Catelyn told him. As we all know Catelyn wasn't exactly a big fan of Jon, which is kind of messed up seeing how it aint his fault Ned stepped out on her but whatever. Blackfish might know a little more about Jon from Robb, seeing how Blackfish was Robb's most tursted advisor, but thats only speculation.

[The Usurper]

But Robb and Jon got along well. So Robb wouldn't have given Brynden a bad idea of Jon.

[fionwe1987]

There's also the chance Robb named Jon heir, and Brynden had a good talk to him about how trustworthy Jon was.

[Blackfish Blues]

I'm betting the last thing he wants the Lannisters to know is that he trusts Jon Stark, and wants him to be the King in the North (as he was likely declared Robb's heir). He'll wait till that is possible, and to prevent others from thinking it can happen, he'll act as if he distrusts Jon.

This. :agree:

We know that people generally mistrust bastards. However, it seems unreasonable to think that the Blackfish still harbors that kind of prejudice. He must have met Mya Stone on many occasions, and she is both capable and trustworthy. In comparison, both Theon Greyjoy and Jaime are highborn, and he doesn't trust them very much. If he hasn't figured it out yet, well... (All this is an aside if someone can tell me a specific grievance the Blackfish might have against Jon Snow. Maybe he thought Jon should have joined Robb in battle? Seems unlikely, he ought to know that Jon couldn't.)

This too. :agree: If the Blackfish has some prejudice about Jon we don't know, it's just because GRRM hasn't told us. I don't think Brynden would expect Jon to join Robb, if he knows what defending the Wall entails.

The only thing that the Blackfish has heard about Jon Snow is from what his trusted neice Catelyn told him. As we all know Catelyn wasn't exactly a big fan of Jon, which is kind of messed up seeing how it aint his fault Ned stepped out on her but whatever. Blackfish might know a little more about Jon from Robb, seeing how Blackfish was Robb's most tursted advisor, but thats only speculation.

There's also the chance Robb named Jon heir, and Brynden had a good talk to him about how trustworthy Jon was.

This too. :agree: Brynden has to balance between Cat's mistrust and Robb's brotherly love towards Jon. Also, we don't know who is Robb's heir, and whether Bryn knows.

Spent this evening at the pub... guess it shows. :blushing:

[Spaceman Hobbes]

I think the Blackfish is playing Jamie. Jon was not only Robb's half brother(or cousin), but he also seemed to be his best friend. If it wasn't for Cat, Jon never goes to the wall. If the war of the five kings never happens Jon would have definitely been a part of Robb's household. I think it's very likely that Jon was named Robb's heir and is rightfully King of the North. If that is the case and if the Blackfish is aware of it would he tell Jamie Lannister? Hell no. When Jon gets mentioned he would make it seem like the last place he would go. He'll pop up late in ADWD in Jon's POV.

That said it would be cooler if he went to Sansa. It would screw with Littlefinger and give Sansa some help she definitely needs.

[dolorouseddwasright]

I think Brynden may also be suspicious at Jon's quick rise to power in the NW. He's only a young man and yet he is already Lord Commander. The fact that Jaime Lannister brings that up in conversation may cause Brynden to wonder how Jon made that climb so quickly. He doesn't have the same information the readers do. So the fact a Lannister is telling him about the quick rise of the bastard may make him think they had a hand in it. Also, as some have pointed out, a lot of his info on Jon probably came from Caitlyn.

Robb may have had fond memories of Jon, but he also thought Theon was a friend, and we all know how that turned out. So Brynden may have put the info he had from Caitlyn together with what he learned of Theon's treachery and decided Jon isn't trustworthy either.

[Mad Monkey]

He doesn't have the same information the readers do.

If he did have all that information, it probably would make his opinion worse. Jon Snow became Lord Commander because of sleazy backroom machinations and shady political arm-twisting. Sure, we know he's a good guy despite that and that he was unaware but there's no way suspicious Brynden Tully will buy that.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Robb may have had fond memories of Jon, but he also thought Theon was a friend, and we all know how that turned out. So Brynden may have put the info he had from Caitlyn together with what he learned of Theon's treachery and decided Jon isn't trustworthy either.

Jon and Robb are brothers, they are definitely closer than Robb and Theon were. I think that probably counted for something with Robb. When we see Theon and Jon at Winterfall, Theon is the same jackass he is when he backstabs Robb. Jon on the other hand is consistently honest over the course of Robb's life. Catelyn obviously doesn't like Jon, but I don't think that the Blackfish would allow his opinion of Jon to be solely shaped by her.

Jon is a bastard, but it isn't unheard of for a bastard to rise high on the watch. That was half of his reason for going there. He's young, but, IIRC, he isn't the youngest commander they have had. I can see where it would cause suspicion, but if Jon is Robb's lawful heir, I think it is safe to assume he would at least investigate Jon, in person, before passing judgement.

[AquariumDrinker]

Just because it is written in the books, doesn't mean it is the truth.

Why in the world would Brynden tell Jaime the truth about his feelings for anyone? That would be like Ned telling Cersei that he was going to tell the King about her children's true father. Of course Brynden may have truely felt that way about Jon... there is no evidence either way.

One thing I have learned about the books is that you should never believe that what anyone says is the truth, unless you are reading their POV at the time.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy

Well, I think he believed Catelyn. She made no mistakes about Greyjoy, and Robb did, and who says that he do not harbors that kind of prejudice? This is medieval time where people believed in witches, where were be too religious to not harbors prejudice.

[jbpark]

I think the simplest explanation is that the Blackfish doesn't trust Jon because of Catelyn, who he does indeed trust.

[Dakota]

If he did have all that information, it probably would make his opinion worse. Jon Snow became Lord Commander because of sleazy backroom machinations and shady political arm-twisting. Sure, we know he's a good guy despite that and that he was unaware but there's no way suspicious Brynden Tully will buy that.

Bear in mind that none of those sleazy backroom machinations and shady political arm-twisting were Jon's ideas. He had no idea Samwell was going around doing all that stuff, he didn't even know his name had been put in for Lord Commander until just before he was elected.

In any case, I hold with the theory that Brynden is giving Jamie a runaround because Jon was named Robb's heir.

[Lucky Shield]

It's hard to tell. Not much to glean any info on.

-

From Jaime: "I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark's bastard is the Lord Commander on the wall."

The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both. No, ser, I think not. I'll die warm, if you please, with a sword in hand running red with lion blood."

-

"It would seem she was right about them both." What did that mean again, can anyone remind me?

We know that people generally mistrust bastards. However, it seems unreasonable to think that the Blackfish still harbors that kind of prejudice. He must have met Mya Stone on many occasions, and she is both capable and trustworthy. In comparison, both Theon Greyjoy and Jaime are highborn, and he doesn't trust them very much. If he hasn't figured it out yet, well... (All this is an aside if someone can tell me a specific grievance the Blackfish might have against Jon Snow. Maybe he thought Jon should have joined Robb in battle? Seems unlikely, he ought to know that Jon couldn't.)

exactly he compares jon to theon.. the latter being a traitor who everyone believes burned winterfell.. Jon never did any of that

[Lucky Shield]

The only thing that the Blackfish has heard about Jon Snow is from what his trusted neice Catelyn told him. As we all know Catelyn wasn't exactly a big fan of Jon, which is kind of messed up seeing how it aint his fault Ned stepped out on her but whatever. Blackfish might know a little more about Jon from Robb, seeing how Blackfish was Robb's most tursted advisor, but thats only speculation.

Robb wanted to make jon heir he must have told Brynden his reasons

[Dreadwolf]

I think the Blackfish is playing Jamie.

That is possible. BTW AAF in some other thread made a great case for Brynden screwing up his eyes while saying that Catelyn was right to never trust Eddard*s bastard.

Jon was not only Robb's half brother(or cousin), but he also seemed to be his best friend.

That one I agree. Although it is known that kings have no friends - only subjects Ned Stark had been once a living rebuttal.

If it wasn't for Cat, Jon never goes to the wall.

No - at least in my book it was mainly Jon Snow who take this decision. We saw him feeling sorry at some point later on - but it must be said to his credit he never blamed lady Catelyn (or any one else) about that.

If the war of the five kings never happens Jon would have definitely been a part of Robb's household.

Jon could have been part of Robb*s house hold only if he never said the NW vow.

After that moment which IIRC had taken place before the inception of the war his chances are quite the same as of his uncle Bejen to be a part of Eddard*s household. That is to say - after the vow they obtained many new brothers - all in black.

In fact he made an attempt to join Robb and revenge his father. He was even afraid what would have Robb done if he had joined him. (recollecting Gared*s execution by Ned). Whatever - your statement as quoted above is rather overstretched at the very least IMHO.

I think it's very likely that Jon was named Robb's heir and is rightfully King of the North. If that is the case and if the Blackfish is aware of it would he tell Jamie Lannister? Hell no. When Jon gets mentioned he would make it seem like the last place he would go. He'll pop up late in ADWD in Jon's POV.

That said it would be cooler if he went to Sansa. It would screw with Littlefinger and give Sansa some help she definitely needs.

I mostly agree and admire your opinion there.